These frogs were here a million years before man. Have faith in the fact that they know what to do.

Although I cant take a stab at telling you what species of frogs you have without a photo, I truly believe your concerns are legitimate. Frogs have been hibernating for thousands of years on the muddy and vegetation laden bottoms of natural bodies of water where the water temps remain a stable 32° just under the ice to around 40° at the bottom. Most frogs indigenous to cold temperate zones are genetically programmed to hibernate because they lack the metabolic capacity to raise their body temperatures on their own. Hibernation is an adaptive trait to preserve the species.

In zone 5/6 and lower, a pond such as yours (and some of mine) would be deemed beyond an attractive nuisance to herps. TheyÂre referred to as artificial death traps in environmental circles that keep tabs on the declining herp populations. I have friends who garden in the mountains of North Carolina and they drain their pond and relocate all of their frogs and toads to the edges of natural bodies of water where they can go their separate ways for the winter to hibernate. Their fish are moved into a stock tank in either their basement or their garage I canÂt remember which. This might be a viable option for you.

Because some of my ponds are artificial and are here exclusively to accommodate specific aquatic plants and tads from vernal ponds and such in the spring, I drain all but one artificial pond and do my best to net all my green friends in fall from the remaining decorative pond so I can relocate them to a natural pond to better ensure their survival. Many hop back in so I keep netting and relocating and netting and relocating and netting and relocating any I can catch. For green friends I miss, I try my best to provide overwintering habitat for them. I start by setting up thermostat controlled heating to maintain the water at a constant 38°. Small artificial ponds in temperate zones can be far too susceptible to wild temperature fluctuations which most herps simply canÂt tolerate. I used to go with a bubbler and a wand style de-icer. They sort of worked until we had a cold snap where day time temps were in the single digits for an extended period of time. I ended up resorting to setting pots of boiling hot water on the surface to create holes in the ice and had to buy a second wand de-icer. I canÂt recommend a de-icer in good conscience for many reasons. LetÂs just say I was very lucky I had no fish or herp death in my pond the next spring. For me, I rely upon maintaining the water at a constant 38° because there have been too many times rangers have drilled holes in the ice and found the thickness was at 25" around here and IÂve found it virtually impossible to keep a hole in the ice when the thickness was at only 10". Next crucial step for me is to try to recreate that mucky muddy debris and vegetation laden pond bottom where most frogs snuggle in and anchor themselves to hibernate. This is not as easy as it sounds. I drop a few concrete blocks at the bottom of the pond and fill them with partially decomposed leaves and strips of quilt batting. The holes in the concrete blocks create "cells" for certain species of frogs to hibernate in. Several years ago I began allowing some leaf litter to build up at the bottom of my decorative pond toward the end of summer to help recreate the muck that other species of frogs nestle in to hibernate at the bottom of a natural pond. To this I add a combination of wool and cotton quilt batting cut into about 1.5 squares. Please donÂt use synthetic (polyester) quilt battings. I re-use the same batting every year so far and layer my squares nicely with leaves, small twigs, and such. I make sure I get all the air pockets out of the batting before sandwiching them with debris and tacking them to the bottom with Malaysian drift wood. Malaysian drift wood always sinks for me and it's not a solid chunk of wood but more branchy and twiggy with just the right weight to it. ItÂs one of the most affordable choices to help keep your leaves and quilt batting down at the bottom of the pond so that frogs can cozy up in the layers without getting trapped or floating up to the surface while in their state of immobilization. If a frog floats up to the surface while hibernating, it is probably going to end up being a very dead frog so the layers have to be kept at the bottom of the artificial pond somehow. African root wood also sinks but IÂve found it to be more expensive than the Malaysian drift wood. HereÂs a link-

Malaysian drift wood Also too, a nice sunken chunk of wood serves a dual function. Most amphibians need some kind of plant or other material for spawning. They need to anchor their egg masses. A few chunks of sunken driftwood could serve as both a cover and as a spawning substrate for next spring. Just a thought.

Every spring I find one or two frogs soaking up rays by the edge of that decorative pond that is supposed to be exclusively for plants so as long as it is there, IÂve got to do something for the few that avoid my net or hop back in. I can assure you there are days I feel like ripping that pond out of the ground and filling the hole in with dirt particularly when the electric bill comes or when we have a power outage and I have to use a gas generator to keep the heaters going.

For my frogs that utilize "antifreeze" (spring peepers & wood frogs) and my toads, I go a different route to provide them with appropriate areas to hibernate. I collect bags of leaves from the curb in neighborhoods that have curbside leaf collection. And I definitely know which homes have mulching mowers ;) and go back year after year to snatch their nicely mulched and bagged leaves. Some of the people wave at me and set aside the "best" bags which are bags that donÂt have fast food and candy wrappers in them. I have some habitat brush piles as well as wood piles on the property for all of the critters to use and I lace them with leaves then empty entire bags of leaves around them then place branches and twigs over the leaves so when the winds kick up I lose fewer leaves. IÂve tossed cotton fabrics and left over quilt batting in the middle of my brush piles too as well as left over burlap. Thanks to sleepless for me adding stepping stones and sinking old clay pots partially in the ground as additional "habitat" for toads. The pots are all still there and IÂve added more. With all the leaves and brush over the tops of the pots, you donÂt even see that pumpkin orange color when there isnÂt decent snow cover.

By now youÂve probably figured out why I drain all but one pond. Too much work and I really want to encourage frogs to go to the natural ponds to hibernate. IÂm a lazy creature by nature and winter is my time to catch up on reading, cleaning the house, and cooking. Really sorry for the long post. It wasnÂt as simple as typing my yay or nay opinion to your polyester batting question.

Im a bit farther north but I will tell you this. My pond is a killing zone for frogs come winter. They just cant live here in the cold without the mud on the bottom. So each spring the bodies start popping up in the filter or strainer and a few weeks later more suicidal frogs show up. I do feel bad but I like to think that the 1000's of baby frogs I help along with the pond make up for the 5+ dead ones I find.

I use a laundry basket into which I put a couple of bricks so that it will not rise. I fold quilt batting and lay it in the basket. I then place plastic tie materail across the top to keep the batting from rising. The frogs and especially the tadpoles hunker down to hibernate.

God your actually going to make me feel bad if I dont do something this easy.

I'll add it to the list of chores.

When do you add the basket?

I suspect the laundry basket alone isn't going to do it unless something is done about the temperatures at the bottom of that pond.

With the milder winters we have been having, much of zone 5b is being downstroked to a 6 and some 5b's are going to 7a's. Look up the new plant hardiness zones being released for North America. Some of zone 5a in NH is remaining a 5a but you can look up where you live for yourself on the new guides. Our weather patterns are changing the plant hardiness zones regardless of why. I'm now in a zone 5b but that doesn't mean my area won't experience streaks of sub zero night time temps or day time temps in the single digits combined with freak February days in the 60's and this doesn't factor in other variables.

Note- different species of frogs hibernate differently which is why as a rule of thumb it might be best to net as many as possible and relocate them to a natural body of water so they can choose by instinct where to hibernate. In other words, provide a basket of quilt batting to a Northern Spring Peeper and it won't use it. Now add to this that none of our ponds are constructed on the same site so one should factor in some very complex geothermal crap that's way over my head and what it boils down to is that two ponds exactly the same depth and size constructed of the same materials in the same subdivision can exist and one can end up being a killing zone for frogs with or without the basket and the other may not. What sort of makes me nervous is that your pond has already been a killing zone for frogs so the basket alone might not work without some means by which to stabilize the water temps at the bottom of your pond for you while the basket alone works fine for the member in NH. Just a thought.

I am in Zone 7 and I keep the bottom of my pond from freezing and my bullfrogs go to the bottom somewhere. I have potted plants down there and algae. This will be my fourth winter and I've not lost a bullfrog yet.

I hate to say it but my first winter I followed that advice to make frog habitats on the bottom of my pond and come spring I could not believe the stench when I pulled up all that nasty quilt batting and branches and what not. What a stinky freaking mess.

The next winter I did nothing special and they were fine without all that junk added.

The 3rd winter, this past one, they spent much time out of the water because a large part of the winter was unseasonably mild. They went down under in November as usual but came back up and spent Dec and January up top, then when it got very cold again in February and most of March they went under the ice to the bottom again. In late March they came up finally but it was still a cold spring and the insects were delayed. This IMO is harder on them then time spent under the ice in straight stretches. I had ice on the ponds in Feb but had several holes open with a bubbler.

The best thing I did for them before winter was to fatten them up good with lots of store bought crickets until the water got too cold for them to notice the food going right past their noses. In spring the same thing - give them an early meal to get them going.

They are cold blooded and when the water gets too cold in the fall they stop eating and head for the bottom. That is their signal to call it a season.

My other frogs don't hibernate in the water. Not sure where they go but I have deep brush, leaf and log piles and my garden has 12" deep or more top soil so any species that hibernates on land can dig in those places. I also have a hollow area under my exterior cellar steps that is used by salamanders and snakes (probably frogs and toads too). This hole is well below the frost line which is 22" in my area.

Face it - some amphibians don't make it if they make an error or if some extreme weather event occurs not usual for the area. I don't agree that artificial ponds are death traps and draining one when a frog has made it it's home, unless one intends to let it freeze to the bottom, is a mistake IMO.

I get thousands of frogs (you can't hear yourself think!) and they belong where they live!
They shouldn't be re-located!
I don't understand this thread. Frogs should be in the area they come from (other animals also!)
JMHO Nancy

I'm in zone 5, wish I was in a 7 or 8 where the frost line was only 22". Point in context would be that the frost line for my county is 42". A few years ago the frost line was 45". To each situation is brought a new set of variables and the vast majority of people who have problems are people who are in zones 5/6 and cooler who have shallow, low volume, rigid formed and lined ponds who don't maintain the water temps above freezing in their ponds over the winter months and don't have appropriate materials for frogs to hibernate in at the bottom of their ponds.

comettose is right, the stench can get bad if you don't clean out the pond as soon as the weather breaks and the frogs surface. At least for me the stench is bad. I have to rinse and ring out my quilt batting a few times before soaking it in a mild bleach solution to hang out to dry so I can re-use them the next year. That being said, it would be nice to be in a zone where I didn't have to do anything to avoid having a pond that was described by mooch as being "a killing zone for frogs come winter".

Not all artificial ponds are death traps. But, decorative ponds in zones 5/6 and cooler are definitely referred to "as artificial death traps in environmental circles that keep tabs on the declining herp populations" for very good reasons. Many people in these zones don't have ponds with depths greater than the frost lines and many people have low volume rigid form and lined ponds lacking appropriate habitat for frogs that hibernated at the bottoms of natural bodies of water for tens of thousands of years. Incidentally, deep tire treads from heavy construction equipment are also referred to as artificial death traps in the environmental circles because many herps spawn in the water that pools in those tread marks. That water dries up considerably faster than the water in vernal ponds and pools. When that water dries up in the tread marks where herps spawned, there go the tads.

I agree that frogs belong where they live. I also agree that they shouldn't be relocated but... there's this one little problem. Lots of us human beings went and introduced lots of artificial environments to where they lived. Frog sees water, frog hops in. The hibernation (actually estivation) process for most frogs isn't as simple as "when the water gets too cold in the fall they stop eating and head for the bottom". Their signal to hibernate is actually considerably more complex and for frogs that hibernate in water, hopefully they are at least in water when the process begins as it can be complete within 15 minutes.

Don C. Forester sums up the issues for frogs that have the misfortune of ending up in an artificial pond that can't sustain them while they estivate-
"As environmental temperatures drop, frogs exhibit a corresponding decline in body temperature as well as metabolic rate. Eventually, their metabolisms drop so low that the frogs enter a physiological state know as torpor, a condition in which they are incapable of responding to external stimuli. During torpor, frogs are quite vulnerable to freezing, and their fate depends on where they are when the temperature drops.

Frequently frogs enter torpor while in the breeding pond, and the water provides an effective buffer against freezing. This occurs due to the unique thermal properties of water. As water molecules at the surface begin to cool, they become heavier, slowly sinking toward the bottom of the pond. However, once the molecules reach 39 degrees F, they begin to expand and become lighter, slowly floating upward, where, at 32 degrees F, they crystallize into a layer of surface ice. Amphibians resting on the bottom are a comfortable 39 F and remain safe from freezing.

Frogs stranded on land during sudden cold snaps are much more likely to freeze."

I totally understand this thread but then I'm in zone 5 and can relate because if one thinks decaying debris from the bottom of a pond creates a stench after a few nice warm spring days... one should get a good whiff of rotting dead frogs that surfaced after a few nice warm spring days. The person who started this thread is in zone 7 where the frost line is probably somewhere around 22" and he/she has a pond that is only 30" deep that could be a 250 gallon pre-form for all we know. If that person has freak lows for any extended period of time as that state has experienced in the past, a shallow sterile-bottomed (very clean) low volume pond could easily freeze and he/she probably doesn't want to risk frogcicles peppering the pond next spring.

Best wishes to all those who are water gardening in cooler zones who try to lend a helping hand to the local wildlife.

I've been following this thread very eagerly and have been wanting to weigh back in. My pond is in coastal Rhode Island (technically zone 6b) where the winters are usually pretty mild. Still... there is always a week or so of single digit temps. This is the first year with the pond in full swing, though I did have water in it last year. No critters and I let it freeze over to see how the cement would fare.

The pond itself is rather unique. Here's a short video from the first day:
http://condor.wesleyan.edu/openmedia/digitization/pond.mov

It is 20' x 10' with a rock bottom. I don't mean rocks on the bottom; I mean a single slab of granite ledge as a bottom! I'm hoping this will act as a heat sink (the rock in my basement does). Most of the pond is very shallow (less than 18") but there is one area about 6' along the outer curve that goes down to a depth of 30" for width of a foot or so. It is around 3500 gallons. The entire yard is ledge which, I would imagine, would affect the frost line and offer some insulation.

I'm especially concerned with the frogs because they are all so small. Most of them are leopard frogs though there are a few that are all green. None of them are over 2 1/2" and some are barely an inch! A few have grown up and moved on but they are quickly replaced by new, small, frogs! I've counted as many as 25 at one time though the population seems to be under 20 now. The pond has only been running since July 4th and I never put in any tadpoles. The nearest body of water I know of is a mile away. I would relocate them, but I'm afraid they'd just come back! I have no idea how they found me but the pond seems to make wonderful "nursery" (despite my cat!). Obviously, I feel a certain responsibility. I definitely don't want a bunch of "frogcicles" next Spring (though I would imagine some losses are inevitable).

I'm glad I started this thread early enough to gather everyone's wisdom before the cold weather hits.

(Miss) BasilB

"Incidentally, deep tire treads from heavy construction equipment are also referred to as artificial death traps in the environmental circles because many herps spawn in the water that pools in those tread marks. That water dries up considerably faster than the water in vernal ponds and pools. When that water dries up in the tread marks where herps spawned, there go the tads."

I've seen this occur after heavy rainfall in which large puddles form on the side of a parking lot for instance which only last a few days (with toads laying eggs). I've relocated tads in these situations when I've found them.

"The hibernation (actually estivation) process for most frogs isn't as simple as "when the water gets too cold in the fall they stop eating and head for the bottom". Their signal to hibernate is actually considerably more complex and for frogs that hibernate in water, hopefully they are at least in water when the process begins as it can be complete within 15 minutes."

I was talking about bullfrogs specifically, not most frogs, but I see your point to some degree, but it is a process all the same as things slow down in the autumn. They can also wake if water temperatures rise unaturally warm for the area in winter. Water is slower to change than the atmosphere and the bigger the body of water the better for temperature stability which is what the frog needs. Coming up too early is a documented killer of frogs, but I've seen them at least in my Zone to be quite resilient to fluctuating temperatures and I presume because of where I live. One advantage to many colder zones is consistent snow coverage which insulates the environment under it. We don't get that here but cold blowing winds, without snow cover most times, that creates havoc on surface temperatures on land and water. Thankfully bullfrogs don't go far from their ponds and when temps drop they go in the pond and not get caught out 'somewhere' else. My bullfrogs don't just drop in the water one day and then hop out in spring. They go up and down in the late fall until they don't resurface once consistent cold weather comes and IF the water temps, I presume reach a certain temperature, which would signal spring has come, they come up.

Any artifical location that does not support the total life cycle year round, taking into consideration the possible wild weather one might get for several weeks, I agree is a death trap. This means shallow puddles that dry up before metamorphasis is complete or ponds that freeze solid to the bottom.

If one does not intend to prevent a pond from freezing to the bottom, regardless of what zone, then that is a death trap. Best to build them for the climate they are in and always take it below the frost line for the area and then use preventative measures or micro-climate situations when possible to improve their chances if freak weather occurs. Better to have overkill depth available in the very cold zones IMHO.

I don't have Apple QuickTime so I can't view your video. Shame as it sounds as if you have an exquisitely beautiful pond. The single slab of granite sounds spectacular. I've never seen a pond in person designed like yours but I'd like to.

You've got good volume but your overall pond depth is basically well above your frost line save "one area about 6' along the outer curve that goes down to a depth of 30" for width of a foot or so". I've seen people use actual house wrap and foam board insulation around their ponds for insulation. I've also known people to actually install water heaters and they leave their pumps run through winter utilizing a thermostat to maintain desired temps. Then there are the people like me using stock tank heaters with thermostats. I've not known anyone to rely upon "ledge" as an insulator. I don't exactly know what you mean by ledge but I'm getting the strange premonition it might ultimately be a conductor not an insulator. No way you can install heating coils under that slab of granite now so it's going to be trial and error because to drain that size pond would be sort of (pardon me for saying this) silly and a waste of water. You froze over last year and will probably freeze over again this year.

You are correct, no matter what lengths you go to there will inevitably be some death sooner or later. Sometimes our best isn't enough.

The size of the frog doesn't matter. The species does. You've got leopard frogs and they definitely hibernate in the bottoms of ponds. Green frogs are a little bit trickier but most around me hibernate in very wet soil or water. Green frogs are the species of frog I've found hibernating in the pots of my aquatic plants. I'd think that if you had a lot of potted aquatic plants in that strip of 30" water that those green frogs would probably make it if the water temps were right and if a hole was kept open in the ice throughout winter. I guess if it were me, I'd get a great big deep bucket and start netting them for this season until I could figure something out within my budget. Yes, other frogs may hop in but two properly timed trips should be about all it would take. There's another trick to the trade too. Many frogs look as if they are dead when they are hibernating and they take on the color of the leaves at the bottoms of ponds. This is an adaptive trait to protect them from predators while they are hibernating. They camouflage themselves. This would make them easy for you to spot at the bottom of your granite pond. Maybe you could just get a bucket of pond water and go back and hand pick any you see that got trapped in your pond and relocate them to that other natural pond before the water ices over? Just go out to where the water is about 3' deep and let the frogs drift down to the bottom? I've known others who have done this to avoid having to pay to heat a pond over winter.

You could heat your pond and maintain the temps at 38F. I don't know how one would go about heating a pond that size after it's installed but if there's a will and person willing to pay the utility bills... there's got to be a way. Sleeplessinftwayne is always chalk full of ideas and she's in a cooler zone and maybe she can be contacted? There's a man in these forums named Mike who I believe designs and builds ponds in my area. I bet he might have some ideas if you are interested but there have got to be other people who design and install ponds in cooler zones who have had to deal with these issues after a pond was constructed. What about your Dept. of Natural Resources? They generally have staff biologists who would be familiar with the species of frogs you have and they might be able to offer some guidance based on the hybrid pond you have.

How did they find you? How do they find any of us- tee he. There's this old saying out there that, "If you build it they will come". You built it, they came.

Sorry comettose, we were typing at the same time and I missed your post.

Good point, "I've seen this occur after heavy rainfall in which large puddles form on the side of a parking lot for instance which only last a few days (with toads laying eggs). I've relocated tads in these situations when I've found them." I forgot about using a Styrofoam take-home food box to scoop up frog eggs I saw in a puddle by the edge of a WalMart parking lot once. I don't know why I was surprised to find them there as I did but I was. Makes sense if you think about it since so many wetlands were paved over to create parking lots.

My bullfrogs behave pretty much the same as yours do regardless of whether they are in one of the natural ponds or in the decorative pond out front. A streak of nice warm weather in February, and they're up soaking up the rays. They always look so emaciated when we get warm streaks that early in the year. I don't bother releasing crickets for the frogs that surface in the pond out back but I will buy about a dozen of the big fat juicy 12¢ crickets from PetSmart and release them by a bullfrog that surfaces out front. I feel bad for them. I have no idea if any of the bullfrogs have ever eaten my offerings but providing them makes me feel better.

Lately we haven't been getting the snow we've received in subsequent years. It's the lousy weird weather we've been having these past few years and it seemed to start with that El Nino whatevertheheckitwas in the 90's. The loss of the insulating properties of snow has taken a big toll on both flora and fauna around here. We simply don't get the snow like we used to. Combine the loss of the snow cover with a cold snap of negative digits for 10 days or so as a high and there are big problems. Winter droughts can be far worse on flora and fauna than summer droughts. I'm afraid we Midwesterners and Northerners have lost the "snow cover" advantage we enjoyed in years gone by.

Backing up a bit, any ideas on what she (I know he/she is a she now thanks to the Miss BasilB comment) can do? 3,500 gallons is a lot of water and she's dealing with an incredible amount of surface area at an average depth well above the frost line. Her pond is probably a formal rectangle shape given the volume at 3,500 gallons taking into consideration water in the plumbing and filtrarion systems? A framed out greenhouse type structure to cover the entire pond that could be collapsed and stored to be used the following year is coming to mind. Does such a thing exist? She's got a granite bottom which could easily provide a level surface for center supports. Just thinking out loud. Creative construction of any sort is not my forte. What do you think of that combined with some stock tank heaters? Wasn't there somebody here who once created a pvc dome for their pond for just this reason?

Talk to Horton about his cover and what about the person several years back that used the home-made lightbulb set up in conjunction with a cover?

That far north and a shallow pond will require something that traps the sun's heat by day, a greenhouse effect cover, and an articial heat source as well to maintain it at night. I would also use a 500 gph pump mounted about 6" under the surface to keep the water moving.

A PVC frame with a strong cover with a slope against prevailing winds would allow light in, wind out, and would shed snow which could cause it to collapse if too heavy.

Snow is an excellent insulation but it is also heavy. The framework would have to be able to withstand substancial weight if heavy snow was allowed to accumilate. Snow can be brushed off and should be if the greenhouse effect is to work. I don't know if plexiglass or something like that would work but I would not use flexible plastic.

I'm not sure the whole pond would have to be covered either. I'm not an thermal design engineer - so just tossing out thoughts.

I can try to get a hold of Horton. Maybe this weekend. It's been a long time but he was always a sweetheart when situations like this popped up.

Same deal with David, he too had the patience of a saint with these types of situations. I believe it was David (DRH1) who designed the light bulb deal. I can try to contact him or his wife but it's been so many years and I never really did do a lot of phone calling or e-mail in favor of posting right in a thread.

What about Mike from Illinois and sleepless? They were always innovative too. The other possibility is Floyd but to be quite blunt, I think he passed away several years ago. All of these people have been water gardening in northern reaches.

Remember the original OP is not in that cold a region in Zone 7 coastal Rhode Island, but it certainly doesn't hurt to have good information reposted, such as Horton's cover and David's lightbulb design. Maybe somebody saved it who is lurking on this thread and would be so kind as to post it back up here.

Here's a photo of my pond from last October (don't have any summer pics at work). The deep end is on the far right. The bottom is a single slab of granite that could be several feet thick. All of the yard is stone. I've got to check with our Environmental Science department to see if that will make the water warmer or colder. The slope is quite steep. When we were first using the laser level, we discovered that "water level" was equal to the opening in a bird house 12 feet in the air at the end of the lot!

{{gwi:183908}}

I can see that photo! Yay!

That is an awesome pond. Great design elements! I love everything about that pond. Send it my way!

How did you calculate your volume?

I stand by my original comments. I think you've got conductors not insulators. Think of how brick conducts the outer air while wood doesn't. Please check with your Environmental Science Dept and share what you are told about your ledges, I'd love to learn what they say about your specific site.

basilbird made these comments, "My pond is in coastal Rhode Island (technically zone 6b) where the winters are usually pretty mild. Still... there is always a week or so of single digit temps. This is the first year with the pond in full swing, though I did have water in it last year. No critters and I let it freeze over to see how the cement would fare" but depending on other factors, a pond in a zone 7 could easily have similar issues.

I don't have Horton's cover or David's lightbulb design saved anywhere. I don't even have their e-mail addresses or phone numbers any longer. This is a relatively newer computer I'm on and my address book with phone numbers and such is on an old hard drive that was erased to government standards I am told (whatever that means other than irretrievable). I checked to see if I had saved cards from them and I didn't so I don't even have a mailing address for either one of them to be able to send them a note to tell them to please log on. I thought I had transferred that type of data but I guess I didn't. Can anybody else out there contact them? Both of them were always so generous with their time and talent.

Everyone here seems to have larger ponds. I have a small plastic pond similiar to a child's play pool, no more than 2 feet deep with only rocks in the bottom.It brought numerouse frog and some toads.Only a few green frogs stuck around and have now turned almost black and sluggish.After reading, the best I can think of is to relocate them to a pond down the road (a few miles away).I have heard people comment on not relocating.Is this if you are talking about a greater distance or should they remain in there same area not matter what. There are no ponds near by so I don't know where they came from.Maybe I should just put them in the woods. Any ideas.

Greg Bickal has a light-bulb de-icer on his DIY disk. Is that the type of info you're looking for from David?

Holy Moly, some of you guys go to great lengths for your froggy friends. I have green frogs - so far I've only seen 3, one very small one which I'm assuming is the offspring of the other two. The fish eat most of the tadpoles and toadpoles. I've never seen a dead frog in the pond, and we always have pairs come back. I put in a large pot of dirt last year as an experiment and it was undisturbed when I pulled it out. I haven't seen the adults lately so they must be going somewhere. There are lots of places for them to burrow near the pond - and lots of crevices IN the pond - so I've decided to let them be. I would not relocate them mainly because they seem to disappear on their own. I know toads should remain where they are and perhaps the same is true for frogs. They must be able to figure it out because we never lack for either.

I don't know David, but I emailed Horton and maybe he will log on and help you all. I have always valued Horton's opinions on everything. He and Catfish used to have some spirited discussions, I really miss them.. Glenda

I have a small 30 gallon container pond that the frogs like to hibernate in..... just lovely huh... why can't they pick the nice big 1000 gallon pond next to it?? Well anyhow, I place a bird bath deicer in it to keep a hole in the ice and I leave the pump running, I just pull the fountain head off it. It runs about 6inches under the water. Keeps the water moving and the deicer keeps it ice free. I've been doing this for 3 yrs now, and haven't lost a frog yet. I do let some leaves settle to the bottom, just for cover for the frogs.

Hidi-Ho, it has been a long time since I was hunted down and I'm not going to say by whom!
I have been having computer and server problems but hope that they are all cleared up now.
Glenda gave me the heads-up about this post and it is good to see Laura back in form on this forum.
Very informative information posted by both CT and Laura.
Laura try contacting me at the address on "My Page". Don't go via GW, as forwarding to a MSN address from this forum does not seem to work for people.

David's article on winterizing can be read in the FAQ, at the top of the main pond forum page.
David uses an aquarium air pump as a bubbler in his pond in Vermont's Zone 4 climate, with great effect.
Steve was the person who designed the flower pot light bulb de-icer, it is shown in David's article.
Greg Bicknal also designed one that used an inverted dish-pan and two light bulbs, with floats made from ABS pipe.
Both Steve and Greg were members of this forum years ago. Alas, like so many more inventive people, with experience and worthwhile information to share, they no longer post here.

As CT pointed out I cover my pond over with a translucent tarp supported on a 2X4 frame to keep the icy winds form blowing over the water's surface.
I also use a small pond pump, 45watts, to keep a hole open in the ice. It bubbles up at an angle across the pond's surface, keeping a hole approximately three feet long and a foot or two wide, depending on the severity of the weather.
I have a 1500 watt electric stock-tank de-icer floating in the pond, as a stand-by should the pump fail over the winter.
We have wintered frogs and tadpoles in 30 inches of water, no problem, in our old ponds. The newest and larger pond is 40 inches deep, at it's deepest point.
Unlike CT[sorry to hear you had a problem there] I still sink a large piece of quilt batting [ but no sticks] to the bottom of the deepest area of the pond, every fall for the frogs to nuzzle into over winter, if they choose to do so. It does stink a bit when I haul it out of the pond in the spring, but not all that bad.
I clean out the pond thoroughly before covering it over for the winter, to cut down on the plant matter decomposition, which can cause hydrogen sulfide gas to form in the water. That gas along with the build up of ammonia from the fish waste, can kill the pond's inhabitants, if it builds up in the water.

No matter what method of keeping just a vent hole open in the ice, or keeping the entire pond open, it should be done now, while there is still comfortable weather to do it.
Don't wait until there is ice or ice and a foot of snow on your pond to install it.
Too many people wait and then get caught with a totally frozen pond, covered with snow and the horrible chore of being out in the freezing weather trying to thaw it out.
There is only so much a bubbler/electric de-icer/aerator can do, but it will do it's job better if it is installed before the pond gets too cold or iced over.
Also some sort of covering to help shield, whatever type of device is used, from the wind, makes a great deal of difference to how effectively it does the job.
It also cuts down on the cost of power used by the device.
Hope this was of interest,
"Horton"

We use a deicer on both ponds, but I only have two adult frogs. My koi many who are two feet long eat any tads as well as their own progeny. I let some leaves in the corner of the small pond where they seem to like. But they travel up to the big pond and sit on the water fall. I never see them in the day time ..always at night. I think they are of opposite sex and are both big. One of them is a frog from last summer but his friend left and i replaced him w/ another in July.I have put batting in the small pond.

Hey,

I have had several ponds over the years and they do seem to draw the frogs. I have found that investing in several sheets of plexiglass to fasten over the ponds, I use several heavy bricks, leaving at least a foot of surface water uncovered, is helpful for the survival of both frogs and fish over the winter. I also use an aquarium pump as a bubbler in addition to this. Snow covering on the plexiglass seems to help too. Obviously the use of plexiglass only works if your pond is of a size that can be covered by large pieces of the plexi. I'm in zone 5, by the way, and my pond is adjacent to my house; I keep the aquarium pump in the house and the tubing runs though an insulated pipe so that warm air is pumped into the pond. In general my pond temps during even the coldest days stay around 35-40 degrees.

JJ

Wow... so strange to see this post of mine surface after over a year!
I like the idea of plexiglass and I've considered it. Haven't been able to find any quite big enough (at a price I was willing to fork over).

I should add, as an update, that this spring when I opened the pond (on Tax Day!) I could account for 9 live and 3 dead frogs. So.. 75% survival rate (that I know of). I think If I had waited a little longer before disturbing the bottom (to fish out the leaves) I might have had a higher survival rate.

We had a **very** cold week here in NE. Ice on the pond thick enought for a cat to walk across (almost!). But today is beautiful and warm. This year I had fewer leopard frogs and my first bullfrogs. The largest of which is quite enormous and was sunning himself this morning along with the smallest bull frog. I didn't see the medium sized one but I'm trusting his survival skills.

Can't wait 'til Tax Day (and Spring) this year!
BasilB

Hey there Miss Basilbird. I'm sorry I missed this thread last year if only because I missed saying 'Hey' to Laurazone5. Her posts are always interesting and full of usable information and she is a very nice person. That is not to say the rest of you are not nice people, too. Most of the people on this forum are good folks. LOL!
I was able to acquire 10 frogs shortly before I broke my back and I distributed them in three separate parts of the yard. I haven't seen any of them but I know they are around because I heard them all summer long this year. I made the people who collected the leaves put some of them in strategic parts of the yard in case the froggies needed bedrooms so my neglect shouldn't be a disaster. DH hasn't noticed the leaves yet.
I have had greenhouses of various types over the years and the interesting thing is that while I have had them damaged by the wind they have never been damaged by snow loads. The reason is that so long as the cover is reasonably tight the warmer air on the inside melts a thin layer of snow so the load is floating on a thin layer of snowmelt (water) and that allows the snow to follow the pull of gravity. It slides off before it can break through. I admit being a nervous wreck the first time my glass and aluminum greenhouse was subjected to a blizzard in Wisconsin but my fears were proved groundless. That is not to say that it is not possible, it just isn't very likely unless you built the greenhouse under the edge of the roof where there is a dropoff.
The last time I tried to pull up Greg's website it did not have anything on it about his various designs although it did talk about his growing business. I was glad to see his success but now I can't send anyone to his site about the floating light bulb deicer. I am glad I bought one of his CDs when they were available. I made a deicer similar in concept to his and would be happy to tell anyone how it was made just so everyone knows it is a variation on a theme. I don't want to pass on a patented design if Greg managed to register it. I have my doubts that he was able to since I am sure I have seen similar contraptions used over the years. Mine certainly isn't as pretty as Greg's was but I didn't have the materials that he used at hand so I had to improvise my way around the construction much the way he did. In the end, I think the only similarity is we both used a light bulb as a heat source.
I wish I could see the video you made. I'm going to see if I can find someone with an Apple. I still think your pond is great. I do think Laura is mistaken about the ledge being only a conductor rather than a collector of heat. So long as it is not totally engulfed by frozen ground it is a heat sink and will act as a collector of heat during any clear day and release heat at night. Even on cloudy days it is likely to be collecting heat from the ground below the frost line. The subject of heat sinks in construction is well documented. We became interested when we built our Earth Shelter house in Wisconsin. The river rock floor and the brick backwall in our greenhouse collected and retained heat that was released at night. It wasn't what you would call hot but it could be measured. I could never convince DH that we should put the cash into insulation for the greenhouse. It would have been much more effective. Sandy