Your pond is perfectly fine with no plants. NitrAtes are not harmful to koi to begin with (unless they really get high) and your weekly 10% water change will handle any nitrates you may have. Most serious koi hobbiests have no plants in their ponds. I say "serious" koi hobbiests to differentiate between those who keep ponds primarly to house their koi and those who keep ponds primarly to house plants, but also happen to have a couple of koi.

I'm not a koi hobbiest so I'm not sure what the goal is. But to me a pond isn't a pond without plants AND fish. I pond for my own enjoyment and hopefully for that of my fish. Nothing goes in my pond without considering how it will affect them. How sad for them. It seems unnatural and not a very enjoyable pond for either of you. To me that would be like spending your life in a house with no furniture. Or a pool with no pool toys! I'd rather not be a "hobbiest" if that's what it required.

Thank you for the info, I too loved my plants, tho only had lilies, I like to see plants in the pond, and I have plenty in my small one where we only keep comets and goldies, (which I may add breed like rabbits)But my Koi are my pride and joy, and the lilies looked terrible cos they were eating them, I am keeping a watch on my levels, and hopefully wont have a nitrAte prob, thanks again

The lack of plants does not create a "sad" environment for the fish, it created a healthier environment because of the lack of dead rotting plant material laying in the bottom of the pond. There is nothing more magnificant than seeing a 30" koi swimming so powerfully the length of a properly designed koi pond that she leaves a wake behind her. The fish in my pond dive deep, getting the chance to build strong muscular bodies. The strong currents simulate the natural river environment from which they originally came. Koi (carp) are not pond or lake fish by nature....they are decended from river carp and there are normally not a lot of plants in the rivers. Putting a koi in a smallish sized pond that is choked with plants does not simulate what they would have in nature. My pond is very beautiful. True there are no plants IN the pond, but there are very lush plantings all around the pond. Looking into the pond and seeing the large beautiful fish in there is like looking at a black velvet cloth with sparkling jewels sprinkled over it. Not better or worse than a water garden, just different. Like I said, for some of us, koi are the focus. For other, plants are the focus. I am a master gardener and LOVE my plants, but I keep them out of the pond. I have lotuses planted around the yard in barrels and have a large bog with carniviours plants and have gardens everywhere.

Nancy you said every thing I would have said thanks. Lissajane sometimes if they aren't getting enough to eat they will eat whatever is available. How much are you feeding them and how much string algae do you have growing in your pond? As I look out at my pond right now, my koi are eating the string algae off the stems and underside of my lilies. They also keep it trimmed to about 1/8" on the side walls of the pond. If you put mature lilies in and keep them well fertilized the koi will have a harder time eating them. In the spring time when things are just getting started I have had them nibbling on the new tender little leaves and tearing them up a bit, but once things are up and growing good they leave them alone. My fish enjoy the shade from the lilies from late morning to late afternoon. I very rarely see them just swimming out in the open during this time of the day. Just like what the fish in nature would be doing!

Patrick, you seem to know so much about koi and how they should behave in nature (which is funny since koi don't live in nature), perhaps you would care to share how you came to know so much? Lissajane has been advised by a professional koi breeder and also a certified koi health advisor and yet you claim to be more than these people. Just curious about your background and training.

Plants provide shade, help control algae, lower pond temperatures, minimize day/night temperature changes, add protection from predators,and some are edible adding variety to the diet. I AM very new to all this but feel that plants help a pond ecosystem more so than they foul it with debris. Besides they add beauty to the pond making it that much more inviting and enjoyable. This is my opinion. I am not a koi breeder nor am I a certified koi health advisor. If you liked the plants then go ahead and keep them. Not knowing what kind of plants they are could they be placed together and planted inside of a barrier?

I think that dedicated Koi ponds are basically a shrine to Koi and serve the Koi that live there. Nothing wrong with pristine water, and beautiful Koi as the focus.

With that said I have a Koi pond with a few plants. Mostly floaters. The fish LOVE investigating the floating planters for hidden bugs and nibble on the roots. However the clean water inhibits really good plant growth. The plants just barely make it due to lack of nutrients.

Either way it is YOUR pond. If you want plants and the water is clean the Rock On! However if the water quality suffers like Ccoombs1 mentions, then you need to pick what is most important to you.

Warm Regards,

Lisa

Everyone has their own idea of what they desire out of their pond. I decided this year that I wanted a koi pond and removed all five of the water lilies, choosing instead to place plants in bog pockets in the corners and in the stream. I was perfectly happy with just the koi, but my sisted talked me into returning one of the lilies to the pond. The koi promptly decided it would be fun to uproot it. I wasn't too upset because the fish really seemed to enjoy the endeaver, LOL. The lily is now caged to protect it from the koi, but I like also like having the lily in there. I just love the whole ponding experience -- plants or no plants is okay with me, as long as my koi are healthy and happy.

Oops, did not mean to cause an argument in here. My pond is a raised pond and therefore quite difficulty to put bog plants in, I can see both points of view, My lilies were very well established and large and strong ( for about 5 days) the koi just tore them up, was having to clean skimmer about 3 times a day. They are well fed and yes they do eat from the pond sides, I would like to put some floaters in but they would just end up over the waterfall. I think I will make a couple of raised areas for marginal plants, but its great watching the fish glide. I don't have any really expensive koi apart from 2 yamabuki ogon, but to me they are all beautiful. any idea on good marginals, I don't mind if they trail in the water a little

If you would like some marginals, you can't beat Japanese water iris. They get full and lush. You can just stick them in the rocks around the top of the pond (where their roots will get wet) and they will take off. Their roots will grow into the water and the fish will nibble on them, but it won't hurt the plants or fish.

Koi originally came from carp!
Koi don't live in nature!
Carp are now extinct according to ccoombs1!
All of us water gardeners have plant choked and dead rotting plant material laying in the bottom of our ponds also!
This is all a pile of carp!

Yeah.....koi came from carp just like poodles came from wolves. I never once said carp are extinct. Koi do not live in nature (unless released there) any more than poodles live in nature. Koi are a refined version of carp and do not have the hybrid vigor that carp have. I really do not know why you are stalking my replies and posting snide comments to whatever I say. This isn't the first time you have done it and I am getting a little tired of it. You still haven't told us how you came about your koi education....how you claim to know more than a koi breeder and a certified koi health advisor. What is your problem with me? So you think I am just making this stuff up? Carp NEVER were native to ponds and lakes....they were native to rivers not plant choked ponds. How about lay off. Do things your own way....I personally do not care. But do not act like you are an expert. You know nothing about proper koi care.

Cindy

The origin of the Koi species is uncertain and varied. They have been discovered in carvings, paintings and artwork and in the earliest written records of ancient China. The Black and Caspian Seas are thought to have been their source of origin before they were exported to Japan where today, they have the distinction of being the National Fish and are held in great esteem by the Japanese. Their name, Nishikigoi, in Japanese means colorful carp.
Hope this helps

Cindy you need to put away the text books and computers. Take a year off and go out and study the carp in it's natural setting. This means putting on some tennis shoes and going out about 50yds on a mud flat and sinking in about a foot in the muck. Then waiting for a school of carp to come along and start rooting in the muck and observe how they go about feeding. Then get a good hand full of muck and see if you can figure out what they are eating.
You need to study the carp in lakes,rivers,and ponds large and small. You need to learn what a carps 24hr day is like, how it eats, what it eats, when it eats, and why. You need to study the carp in all 4 seasons and watch the changes it goes through naturally. You need to study the natural predators they have and how they avoid getting eaten.
After doing this for a year, you'll have decades of doing this before you catch up with me. We come from opposite ends of the spectrum with regards to ponds with plants. You take them out for the fish, I put them in for the fish to enjoy and eat. When you take every thing out of the pond and make it sterile, that makes you 100% responsible for "all the needs of your fish". I try to give as much of this responsibility back to them as possible and let them rely on their own instincts and yes koi still have natural instincts. They love to eat plants and they love to root and they still know a predator when they see one. They are not a fragile fish and they are a lot tougher than you think.
Please stop telling people to take the plants out of their pond. When doing so you are telling them to take the nature out of their pond, because more than just fish rely on the plants. With out plants they aren't going to be able to enjoy the full potential of their pond, and I don't think most of the people on this forum are into just fish. Do you know what it's like to be trimming lilies and have all of your fish under foot checking out what you're doing?
That said! If you are going to have fish and plants together you also have to be 100% responsible to keep both under control and take care of both. If you do so you will be able to keep things in balance much easier and have a natural healthy pond with more than just fish and plants and it will be very easy to take care of.

Patrick, well, you certainly are an arrogant one, aren't you?? So I'll have to study for wild carp for decades before I am equal to you?? Gosh, you must be REALLY old!!! You really make me laugh. First of all.....why does studying wild carp mean that you are an expert on koi? As I said before....a koi is NOT the same as a wild carp any more than a poodle is the same as a wolf. And I do not tell people to take the plants out of their ponds, I tell them to not put koi into tiny ponds that are not suited to them. Koi are not the same as goldfish. They are large and dirty and putting plants in the pond will not change that one little bit.

OK...to put it in perspective, lets say someone built a tiny little pasture and planted some lush grass for a few Shetland ponies. then they saw some adorable little Clydesdale colts. Well, they are small, they will fit nicely!! So in they go. The only problem is the Clydesdale colts do not stay small like the goldfish and soon they become too large for their environment. They overpower the lush grass and their waste piles up everywhere. Shetland ponies and Clydesdale are related, just like koi and goldfish are related, but the require different environments. I never once said that if you want koi, you must remove the plants. You are constantly twisting my words and I am getting really sick of it. If you will read back to the beginning of this thread, the original poster was advised by the koi BREEDER to take the plants out.....and I do agree. Ever see what a 36" koi can do to a water lily? It's not pretty. If you want to try to keep a water garden with koi, go for it!! I couldn't care less!! But it is unfair to try to cram a fish with the potential to grow to over 36" into a tiny plant-choked water garden.

Ask ANY person who is serious about koi....people who keep expensive show-quality koi if they keep plants in their ponds. You will not find one. Koi hobbyists who are more concerned with the well-being of their koi put their emphasis on the koi, not the plants. I know a lot of people who give their koi 1000 gallons of water EACH. Do you think a koi would prefer to have room to swim in a good clean pond with good currents, or would it prefer to swim in a pond where it has to move slowly to avoid crashing into the nearest wall or rock pile?

Basically it boils down to this. You do it your way, I will do it mine. I will continue to teach people what I know about proper koi keeping.

Now go find someone else to harass. I am tired of your attitude.

While I personally would not have a pond without plants, my ponds also have no koi.

The example of a Shetland pony and a Clydesdale is a really good one.

Far too many people have koi in ponds where they should have goldfish.

I do not understand why some people look down on goldfish and think koi are the only pond fish to have if you have a pond. (not meaning anyone on this thread, just an attitude I've run into many times)

Cindy ,if you don't want to understand where the koi originally came from, thats ok. I can see your goal is to keep taking the carp out of the koi and putting it in an unnatural setting. Mine is just the opposite; to let my koi act like a carp and live in a natural setting. Talk about arrogant-attitude; look what you just said about the majority of the ponds on this forum. I don't think any of us are going to measure up to to that standard of ponding. What a kick in the teeth! A reminder: the name of this forum is Ponds & Aquatic Plants Forum, not the Prize Winning Koi Forum.

And one more thing Patrick. You seem to think that you have created a natural environment for your fish that needs no intervention from you. Wrong. Any time ANY one puts a liner in the ground, you have created an artificial environment. Your fish and my fish are TOTALLY dependent on us for their care and well being. You tell me to stop telling people to take the nature out of their ponds. Well guess what.....there is nothing natural about these ponds to begin with!! Sure, they can simulate a natural look, but they are still artificial and depend on us to keep the environment healthy. All the plants in the world will not make a pond natural and will not keep the pond healthy. That is the plain and simple truth. Personally, I think a well planted water garden with a collection of attractive goldfish is beautiful. I like a water garden full of native fish too. VERY attractive!! But I prefer koi, and they need space. LOTS of space.

You might think I don't belong here because I keep koi. Well guess what Patrick....you are wrong again. This board is about ponds and water gardens, not just water gardens. My ponds are not full of plants, but they ARE ponds and I have a lot to offer people about proper pond design and taking care of sick fish. What suggestions have you ever offered to people who have problems except for the usual....."got a problerm?? just add more plants"!! Some day you will learn....adding more plants to a pond does not fix all problems.

CindyI think you missed what I said. If you are going to have fish and plants, you have to be 100% responsible to keep both under control and take care of both. I like your example of the poodle. Lets say you get a poodle from a kennel breeder and you get it home. The dog starts chewing on your furniture in your house. You go back to the breeder with the problem, and he says take the furniture out of your house and you won't have a problem. We don't put furniture in our kennels! So you go elsewhere for advice, and someone tells you keep the furniture out also, because this will give your dog plenty of room to run and he won't be bumping into the furniture and getting hurt. Also it will be easier to keep your house clean. This still doesn't solve your problem because you still want to have a dog and furniture in your house.
The root cause of the problem is that dogs like to chew. Train the dog not to chew on furniture,or maybe giving the dog something that is ok for it to chew on are solutions. Finding solutions like these will keep both the dog and owner happy.
Look back at the beginning of this post and see what the problem was, and what your solution was.
Here is something else for you to think about. Us northerners probably shouldn't be raising koi either because we only have about a 6mo growing season, and our fish don't get any exercise under the ice in the winter either.

I think both Patrick and Cindy have true things to say on this subject but have different goals in mind. I don't breed koi or keep plants out of my pond. I simply love the colors and intelligence of the few koi I have. The highest price I have paid for a koi was $32.00 and she was an 8 inch snack for a heron despite all the hideouts and nets and depth of the water. I have also watched carp, who seem to prefer muddy water which makes it difficult. They are interesting in their behavior as well but it is not much like the behavior of my koi. One is the grumpy grampa and the other a mischievious three year old on a sugar high when given attention.
If I was paying huge prices for my fishies, I would remove my lilies but I really don't object to my almost culls chomping on them once in a while. That is part of what makes them interesting. They can't get to most of my other plants which are in pots. The raccoons take care of that.
Both of you have good points. This argument and sniping is almost silly and distracts from your very valid advice. Patrick, you are new to me and I will tell you that I have found Cindy's advice in all things fish to be accurate and helpful. You need more time to be reguarded as that much of an asset. Sandy

Sandy, Well said and totally accurate. I agree 100%. Glenda

well i am more close to what patrick says, i believe that koi and whatever plant you wanna have in your pond can coexist together, either way they will create some peacefull and collorful place, so cindy dont say that a pond isnt natural, it is man made, but plants are as natural as the ones in the wild just as koi are, if you plant a tree or whatever plant you want it is still natural, it is just as natural as the tree tthat is in the wild so stop this fight, youve got your point and well i have never believed in experts, because they are still humans so they make mistakes, and sometimes they just tell you what they like, because if they like waterplants they'll do some impossible things to keep up with them no matter what, and as a matter of fact, just how you call them experts in koi, so they just like koi and not water enviroments known as a water gardens, because if youve seen on the internet, people that sell koi dont sell water plants, and people that sell water plants sometimes sell koi, so ive got a question do you have a water garden or just a pond for fish?
well im just doing this to know because im a person that loves both and me as a person that loves nature either one, plants and animals, so i wont even think about this twice i will protect my water plants from them as much as i will protect my koi from anything so, this is fro lissajane just how patrick said once your lillies have started to grow and get bigger and all stabilized your koi leaves them allone, what i did was that first i put them in a water container besides the pond once they startes to have some floating leaves put them back in my pond and the fishes didnt care anymore and left them alone, no im getting some buds i hope ill see some soon
good luck and remmember lissajane if you like both have both, lillies brings to the pond lots of color and koi does too, so keep trying and never give up

A liner pond is never ever going to be able to simulate a natural or even a man-made earthen pond. One of the biggest reasons?? stocking levels. An earthen pond (whether natural or man-made) is stocked at the rate of maybe one fish per several thousand gallons at the most, but usually one fish per 10,000 gallons. A garden pond is stocked more at the levels of one fish per 100 gallons or even worse. Show me ONE place in nature where a earthen pond exists and is healthy with a stocking rate of one fish per 100 gallons. You may find minnows living at those stocking levels, but not koi.

And howell, you are wrong about koi being as natural as carp are. They have been bred by humans for over 100 years to be what they are now. they have been in-bred and line bred to produce the pretty colors. that has weakened them to the point that they are no longer like their wild cousins. They do not have the hardiness that carp have. They do not have the disease resistance or the parasite resistance. So they are as similar to carp as a poodle is to a wolf.

I am done with this petty argument. You go ahead and believe whatever you want to believe. I do not care. Just don't tell me that I don't know what I am talking about until you can show me that place in nature where carp are living at a stocking level of one fish per 100 gallons and doing just fine with no human intervention.

Have a nice day.

Ok everyone, I have been reading all these posts, and I said, that my lilies were very established before they went in the pond, within a week they looked so sad, and awful to look at, This was why I originally asked about plants, and was told to take them out, I love my plants, but was really annoyed that my post turned into such an battle, I don't have expensive fish, but I don't care, they are my babies. So please lets stay on the original issue, we are all entitled to our opinions and I am sorry I even brought up the subject, which created a feud in here, all I wanted was advice.