Epsoma products have Bio-tone microbes to encourage mycorrhiza fungi for phosphorus. Their Tomatoe Tone has 8% calcium from gypsum to prevent blossom-end-rot.

I wasted money on superphosphate and sulfur in the planting hole, and Austin own-roots were still stingy. Nature provides us with mycorrhiza for phosphorus.

Wikipedia wrote: "Plant roots alone may be incapable of taking up phosphate ions that are demineralized in soils with a basic pH. The mycelium of the mycorrhizal fungus can, however, access these phosphorus sources, and make them available to the plants they colonize...
For example, in some dystrophic forests large amounts of phosphate are taken up by mycorrhizal hyphae acting directly on leaf litter, bypassing the need for soil uptake."

My roses with the most leaves in the planting hole bloomed best. I'll experiment with low-sodium, soluble monopotassium phosphate NPK of 0-52-34 to see if it works. It's sold for 1 lb. at $12, using 1 teaspoon per gallon of water.

Here is a link that might be useful: Low-salt soluble, 0-52-34 fertilizer

Strawberry, I really love reading your efforts to suss out the science of better blooming. I think I'll try that tomato tone.

HAve you come across the secret to more fragrant blooms?

Hi lola-lemon: The secret to more fragrant blooms? Stick into your nose! Just kidding... I notice that own-roots smell better than grafted. I have many Knock-outs: some on Dr. Huey, some on both Dr. Huey and own-root, and some own-roots. Only the own-roots smell good in cool weather.

Alkaline soil brings out more the fruity and myrrh scent. One time I dumped acid on Mary Magdalene and she lost her fabulous myrrh scent. Hybrid teas like Double Delight and Chrysler Imperial lose their scent in cold weather. In contrast, Austin roses' scent are best in cool weather.

There's a quote from Michigan State U. Extension tjhat it's the ABSENCE of nitrogen that induce blooms, rather than adding phosphorus ... It's true. I once dumped blood meal NPK 12-0-0 on marigolds ... they became over 3 feet tall, and zero bloom for the entire summer.

That's the problem with alfalfa products: twice higher in nitrogen. This past summer I used alfalfa meal on my tomatoes, and had 1/2 less fruits ... they were really tall with shallow roots. Alfalfa may be great on Dr. Huey ... he can take any abuse. But alfalfa is not best on wimpy own-roots. It choked Eglantyne, a geranium plant, my 2 rhododrendrons, and Gracin's Fortutiana root in potting soil. Two University Extensions documented yellowing of vege. seedling and marigolds with alfalfa pellets.

Some municipals add lime in their tap water, so pipes won't corrode. Lime raises pH, and also binds with phosphorus, making it unavailable. My tap water pH is 8 ... one year I used high phosphorus soluble fertilizer on petunia in the pot. It tripled in blooms. When I pulled the plant out, the roots were huge.

Schultz 10-54-10 soluble fertilizer is great for pots, but a nitrogen content of 10 is too high for my heavy clay. My clay retains the salt in nitrogen fertilizer, so I prefer using low salt, no nitrogen 0-52-34 monopotassium phosphate.

The best rose gardens I saw in heavy clay zone 5a were fertilized with cow manure or horse manure, rather than chemical fertilizer. The second best is fertilized with high phosphorus, low nitrogen, like Cantigny park. Below is a pic. taken in October ... the park is even more loaded in spring, can't even see the leaves.

One can use fish-tank litmus paper sold at Walmart to see if your water is alkaline. A shortcut is to boil red cabbage in distilled water, which turns violet. Then boil red cabbage in your tap water, which turns blue if yours is alkaline.

The distilled water & red cabbage solution can be used to get the pH of your soil. I updated the procedure, using household items as markers, such as milk, egg white, and leaves.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cheapest way to test soil pH using red cabbage

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, Feb 27, 13 at 9:44

"Drawback of excess nitrogen: more pests (aphids), groundwater contamination, tall roses with less blooms and less root development."

Can you please provide documentation to support the "tall roses with less blooms" aspect?

Hi Paul: I forget to put the formula so I won't be nit-picked.

Disclaimer: IM (HO + GO) = ISFM
It translates to In my humble opinion, and in my garden only, equals to "I speak for myself". ISFM could mean "I shop for more" =)!

Below is a picture of 1 month-old Evelyn, bought as own-root gallon from Chamblee. That's just from alfalfa meal NPK 2-1-2.

edit

This post was edited by trospero on Fri, Mar 1, 13 at 12:12

Paul, do you have info. to present, or are you giving me a hard time? I prefer that you present info., rather than demanding from others. I have done enough, so it's your turn to find the info.

I only speak for myself, I don't speak for others. Nitrogen can be great in a nitrogen-deficient soil, only you know if your soil is deficient or not. All I know is it produces growth with no blooms in my clay at pH 7.7. I have the nutrient deficiencies chart associated with low pH and high pH from EarthCo:

Nitrogen: plenty at pH 8, but short at pH 5.5. Molybdenum: very low at pH 5.5 and beyond.

Phosphorus: very deficient at pH below 6, and somewhat deficient at pH 8. Correcting low pH by adding lime had been documented to increase yields in crops.

Potassium: plenty at pH 8, but less at pH 5.5 (not as deficient as phosphorus). Calcium: plenty at pH 8, but very low at pH 5.5.

Magnesium: plenty at pH 8, but very low at pH 6 and beyond. My alkaline clay is tested high in magnesium

Boron: can be short at neutral and alkaline. Copper: low at pH 8 and beyond. Iron: very low at pH 8 and beyond. Zinc: somewhat low at pH 8 and beyond.

EarthCo., or University Extension, or pH meter ARE NOT PLANTS, and cannot speak for plants. EarthCo. tested my soil to be deficient in potassium, yet I don't have much diseases with my roses, since I mulch with horse manure. Potassium is needed to fight diseases and for strong stems.

EarthCo. tested my soil to be deficient in calcium, yet my soil is high in limestone and dolomitic lime, and I NEVER have blossom-end rot in my 12 years of growing tomatoes here. Check out what Wikipedia wrote about calcium deficiency:

"Calcium deficiency may be due to water shortages, which slow the transportation of calcium to the plant, poor uptake of calcium through the stem,[2] or can be caused by excessive usage of potassium or nitrogen fertilizers."

The best way is to pay attention to plants, and let the plants speak for themselves. I recognized the pinkish-purplish streaks on my roses' stems, and it matched with phosphorus deficiency, caused by phosphorus tied-up with lime in my soil, and lime in my well water. I'm next to limestone quarry. Here's how my garden looks like with deciduous trees (I don't fertilize those). Heavy clay is fertile like a slow-released fertilizer. I fertilized white pines when they were 1 foot tall, but they didn't like it, so I stopped.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, Feb 27, 13 at 14:39

There will always be folks to share info. to help others, and folks who nit-pick and criticize the given info. I would rather be in the 1st group, it's more innovative that way.

Nitrogen is tied up in acidic soil, I can see the need for fertilizer. But there is no point in neutral or alkaline soil, where nitrogen is plenty, according to plant nutrient chart in relation to soil pH.
Mother Earth News wrote: "As a result, about 60 percent of the nitrogen contained in applied fertilizer is never incorporated into plants and so is free to wash out of root zones, and then pollute rivers, lakes, aquifers and coastal areas through eutrophication. Eutrophication is a process caused by excess nutrients that depletes oxygen in water bodies and ultimately leads to the death of animal life."

eHow wrote on the effect of too much nitrogen: 1) Too leafty ..., this new growth is often weak, soft and sappy, which makes the plant attractive to various pests and unable to sustain the stress of drought. And if the plant is aromatic, it loses much of its fragrance.

2) No fruit or Flowers. It's difficult for fruit and flowers to grow when there is too much nitrogen in the soil. Fruit that does grow is distorted or doesn't ripen properly, while flower buds fall off or are disfigured if they do bloom.

Gardening-Know-How website wrote: "When there is high nitrogen in soil, plants may not produce flowers or fruit. As with nitrogen deficiency in plants, the leaves may turn yellow and drop. Too much nitrogen can result in plant burning, which causes them to shrivel and die."

Let's consider the salt index of nitrogen fertilizer: 74.4 in urea, 88.3 in ammonium sulfate, 90.4 in ammonium, and 104 in ammonium nitrate. It's like dumping a cup of salt on your rose bush. Lesser salt are in animal manure and blood meal. See the link below for salt-index of chemical fertilizers:

Here is a link that might be useful: Salt index of chemical fertilizer

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, Feb 27, 13 at 16:42

um, letting the plants speak for themselves is, indeed, the best method of growing things.....if you have the skill to interpret what you are seeing. Nonetheless, a decade of observing plants on my allotment has convinced me nitrogen appears to be of limited value for my roses (unlike my veggies) increasing vegetative growth at the expense of winter hardiness and bloom quantity. In truth, the vegetables and fruit get the nutritional extras while the perennials and shrubs have to shift for themselves.

Hi Camp: Thank you for your honesty and experience. You are right about "nitrogen increases vegetative growth at the expense of winter hardiness and bloom."

Previous years I did not use any fertilizer on my tomatoes, the roots were so deep that could not dig up, I had to wait until the spring. Last summer I used alfalfa meal on my tomatoes ... they became tall & less fruits, and the roots were so shallow that I could pull up with one hand. I had to water those tomatoes constantly!!

That's why Cantigny rose park, zone 5a, uses a high phosphorus fertilizer on their roses: bigger roots mean better winter survival, in addition to the "more blooms than leaves" look.

I don't advocate high phosphorus unless a soil test, or symptoms advised so. What led me to post this thread was the remark from Michigan State University: "It's the ABSENCE of nitrogen fertilizer that promotes flowering, rather than using phosphorus fertilizer."

Here's a quote from David Neal, CEO of Dyna-Grow Plant Nutrition in CA: "There is some evidence to believe that low N helps to convince a plant to stop its vegetative growth and move into its reproductive phase (flowering), but environmental factors are probably more important. P is typically 5th or 6th in order of importance of the six macronutrients. There is little scientific justification for higher P formulas, but marketing does come into play ...."

That was posted in the Container Gardening.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Thu, Feb 28, 13 at 10:34

Here are some basic points:

1. Roses use NPK in the ratio of 3-1-2 regardless of soil and climate.

2. Pure sand doesn't hold any nutrient. Frequent light feedings are advisable for very sandy soil.

3. Organic matter (potting mix) holds most nutrients but does not hold P the way loam and clay soils do. Therefore a 1-1-1 ratio is fine for potted plants. Alternatively, you can add 10% plain cat litter to potting mix and apply less P (also less water).

4. I've seen no evidence that high N produces fewer rose flowers. Commercial cut-rose growers fertilize with high N (3-1-2 or 2-1-2).

5. "Phosphorus for fruits and roots" is pretty much an old wives' tale. Plants use P mainly for DNA, RNA, etc. which are essential for any kind of growth and development. The only plant part that has extra P is mature seeds. The main effect of extra P on roots is to discourage the development of beneficial mycorrhyzae, which leaves the root system less efficient. This might result in the plant's root system growing larger, but it isn't a benefit.

6. An excess of any nutrient is potentially harmful. This is the most important point.

Here is a link that might be useful: phosphate myth

I suffered through horticultural science at college (anions, cations, NPK, Mg.Zn, electron steps and so on and so forth - left me more mystified than ever). I do remember the law of limiting factors though, whereby the least amount of nutrients, water, carbon dioxide, sunlight, etc. will determine the overall growth and health of a plant. So, you could add a particular amendment until the cows came home but a lack of other resources will render extra additions irrelevant at best and destructive, at worst.
Cool UK summers tend to limit the bloom season - I usually get a great early show then maybe another autumn cycle so my roses are not under stress to pump out many bloom cycles and, therefore, deplete the soil far less than vegetables.

3-1-2 is the ratio that roses and most plants USE, not necessarily what the gardener should APPLY (except in hydroponics). What should be applied depends on what is already in the soil and how well the soil holds various nutrients.

Michael......

Is the 3-1-2 ratio you mention in the post above a general rule for fertile soils ? Soils that already have enough organic material in it to be termed "loamy" soil with organic materials mixed in over time ?

My understanding is that this type of soil is the most compatible type of soil to grow grow plants in. Most of the nutrients that become available to the plants are from the decaying organic materials. Am I correct ?

Smiles,
Lyn

Lyn, it just means that for every 3 parts of nitrogen that plants take up and use, they take up 1 part of phosphate and 2 parts of potash. These are ratios, not amounts. The ratio of available NPK in the soil doesn't have to be 3-1-2, although, if it is way,way off, that could cause problems.

Alfalfa and green plant materials used as fertilizer have a 3-1-2 or 2-1-2 ratio unless the K has been leached out by rain. The analysis of manures is highly variable, but the ratios are close enough to be OK. Most soils have a store of P and K that are bound to soil particles or organic matter. N and P in organic compounds are released gradually, as you say.

Thank you, Michael.

Smiles,
Lyn

Hi MichaelG: thanks for the clarification. You are always nice, and I appreciate that.

Speaking of P, or phosphorus tie-up, here's a quote from Nutrient Stewardship site: "Phosphorus is the nutrient most affected by pH. ..Nitrogen, Potassium, and sulfur are less affected. Phosphorus (P), however, is directly affected. At alkaline pH values, greater than pH 7.5 for example, phosphate ions tend to react quickly with calcium (Ca) and magnesium (Mg) to form less soluble compounds. At acidic pH values, phosphate ions react with aluminum (Al) and iron (Fe) to again form less soluble compounds."

It's good to test if one's tap water is alkaline, some cities add lime to water so pipes won't corrode. Calcium in lime will bind with phosphorus, and less is available. In my 12 years of growing flowers in pots, the year that I got continuous MOST blooms despite my pH 8 water was when I used high phosphorus SOLUBLE fertilizer, and low nitrogen.

Granular phosphorus like bone meal and 46% superphosphate are useless in the planting hole here in alkaline clay. My results confirmed what University of Colorado stated "bone meal and rock phosphate can only be utilized at or below pH 7".

Here is a link that might be useful: Soil pH and availability of plant nutrients

Michael. we are so lucky to have you on the rose forums. I have learned so much from your posts.

Strawberry all your hard work has made my garden so beautiful. I am using horse manure on my clay and getting great results. I am really looking at them now. I like to sift the clay and put a little in my potting soil. It works very well for me. It seems to make the soil in the pots last a little longer. I have a friend who sells at the farmer's market and grows fantastic fruits and all kinds of tropicals. He likes to use a potting mix that is half pumice and half peat moss. I have been getting that mix and using half good quality potting soil and half his mix and then adding some sifted clay soil.

I am getting good results from layering my clay with straw and horse manure and letting that sit for 6-8 months and then sifting it and using that for roses. My friend says charcoal from the fireplace will hold the nutrients well so I've been sifting charcoal chunks out of ash for adding to a test bed to see if it works for me.

I used so many of your ideas to increase the bloom on my Austin roses. We all have to try and see what works. I do like the idea that you can save money on fertilizer and get more flowers. Some of the people that walk dogs past my house are objecting to the smell of the horse manure I just put down. They make hard faces at me while I'm wheelbarrowing it around. Oh well, you can't please everyone. Keep up the good work.

Here's the last of my offending pile that I'm moving to the back as fast as I can :) How can they be so outraged when they used to let the dogs make a mess on the grass that I used to have there? No more grass and hello polyanthas!

Hi Kitty: it's like a drop of refreshing water to hear your kind words. I admire your positive spirit and learning-mind, which I strive for. Your picture looks good to me, much better than the dandelions lawn here.

I googled pumice: "A very light and porous volcanic rock formed when a gas-rich froth of glassy lava solidifies rapidly." Good stuff high in phosphorus.

Ingrid's soil is decomposed granite, nice and fluffy, and has twice more phosphorus. Her garden is gorgeous with tons of blooms. Alfalfa meal at 2-1-2 works well for her soil, but not for my gluey clay low in phosphorus.

Peat moss pH is 4, good to neutralize alkaline tap water. Layering clay with straw and horse manure is much better than my mistake of making potteries by mixing amendments into my sticky clay.

Charcoal, or wood ash is very alkaline, pH 10 to 12 (from more than 2 sites). I took some ash from my neighbor's fireplace and tested it, it turned bright green in red cabbage juice.

My Mom had acidic soil in Michigan and she dumped wood-ash on leaves (pH 4 to 5), let the rain (pH 5.6) neutralize it .... then use it many months later. She told me to keep fresh wood ash away from roots, otherwise it will burn.

Leaves (acidic when fresh), straw, and pine fines (pH 4 to 5) work as buffer: they neutralize extreme pH in soils. I won't get into the boring cation and anion exchange. Coffee ground is also a buffer, it was pink at first, but after soaking for 20 minutes in red cabbage juice, it turned clear. I made many planting holes last year to fix my heavy clay at pH 7.7:

Hole with sulfur: it kill all earthworms, didn't help with blooming. A blueberry grower in Soil Forum reported the same with sulfur.
Hole with bone meal: still stingy in blooms. Same with 46% superphosphate granules.

Hole with alfalfa meal: major glue-up into cement, roots can't expand, leaves turned yellow and shrivel no matter how much water given.

Hole with peat moss: not bad, at least I didn't water my 10 azaleas and rhododendrons for the past 12 years ... until I experimented with sulfur and high-nitrogen fertilizer and killed 2 this year.

Hole with 1 cup of Hollytone NPK 4-3-4, with sulfur, killed all earthworms, still stingy. Then I spreaded it on the surface around Radio Times, it broke out in blackspot. Making the surface slightly acidic is a great way to germinate fungi.

The logic for the high pH in bagged Moo manure, or mushroom compost through adding lime: 1) to deodorize 2) to suppress fungal growth in bags. That's the same logic in spreading wood ash around rose bush: 1) high potassium to fight disease 2) high pH to suppress fungi.

Kitty, if people complain about the smell of your horse manure, it means that lime hasn't been added to deodorize, so the pH of you pile is safe. My pile of horse manure has no smell ... the stable told me they put lime to deodorize the enclosed stall in freezing zone 5a winter. I tested it in red cabbage juice and it's medium blue (pH 7.5) in spring, but much more alkaline in winter (pH 8).

My good planting holes are, from best to OK:

1) Hole mixed with pine fines (pH 4 to 5), lots of blooming from the humic acid released by decomposed pine, and its 21% water-retention ability.

2) Hole mixed with leaves - lots of bloomings. NPK of leaves is 0.8 / 0.35 / 0.2 Leaves retain water well, and phosphorus is released with decomposed organic matter.

3) Hole mixed with grass clippings - kind of stingy, it might be from the high value of nitrogen. NPK of grass is 4 / 0.5 / 0.2 ... my clay retains nutrients well so higher in nitrogen can make it stingy.

Below is a picture of own-root Sonia Rykiel leaf turning chlorotic from nitrogen and iron leaching out of a pot (I watered it with soluble NPK of 18-24-16, with 0.1 iron, plus a high nitrogen soluble NPK of 32-10-10, with 0.33% iron).

Compare that to the dark green, own-root Golden Celebration leaves to the right. It's planted in heavy clay mulched with horse manure and alfalfa meal. Both are slow-released nitrogen, and horse manure has iron to make it dark green.

Stawberry,
can I use pine needles or do I need chopped up pieces of pine limbs/bark. My friend Gary said not to use the fireplace ashes but that the rinsed off charcoal was ok. I will cabbage test it just to check. So just to make sure I understand, put the acid stuff like the peat and pine in the hole and not at the surface where it will encourage fungal outbreaks?

I have some dandelions myself. I let them grow in part shade so they will be tender because I eat the leaves to have good circulation and keep leg vein problems away. The ones that grow in full sun are too bitter except for the youngest plants.

Hi Strawberry;
You go girl...Your first paragraph at the very top of this thread is exactly what the head Rosarian at the Portland Rose Garden said. Rain will leach nitropgen. They have found that only the addition of nitrogen and zoo doo is neceszsary.
I'm glad to see you posting again. Your information and hard work is appreciated.
When I first began to read this website...before I actually felt comfortable posting, there were a few experienced posters from Western Washington whose info I found invaluable. Then came an influx of nexative neiseyers...I'm about the only one left. Please dont let the negativity distress you. We need all opinions here.
Jeannie

I appreciate all your support, Campanula, Kitty, and Jeannie: thank you for your kind words.

Kitty is right: Virginia pine and Eastern pine is reported at pH 4.4 as fresh, but it becomes neutral quickly once brown. If you can mix in the planting hole when it's fresh, then it's more acidic.
I have a few white pines branches on the surface that haven't decomposed in 1 year. It blocks rain water really well. Peat moss also blocks water when applied at the surface. Both are meant to mix in with heavy clay, to make it fluffy & giving roots some air.

Pine and leaves are better than peat moss in fixing clay. Peat moss decomposes quickly, but pine is reported as taking the longest to break down, so your clay won't stick together again.
My mediocre horse manure on woodchips bedding and lime has 2 advantages: 1) woodchips dries out faster than clay (staying wet longer means germinating fungi better). 2) Lime suppress fungal growth with its high pH and anti-fungal properties. Much less blackspots when mulched.

I tested the surface pH in relation to fungal growth, and the degree of surface wetness:

1) surface wet rotten tomatoes (pH 4.5) - worst blackspot
2) surface Hollytone with sulfur (pH 4) - equally bad
3) surface wet alfalfa meal (pH 6) - second worst BS

Wet decomposed leaves weren't bad, just a tiny bit of BS. University of Illinois documented the end result of decomposed leaves as slightly alkaline, and not neutral.

I tested old white pine needles to be neutral. It's also dry, putting on the surface won't germinate fungal growth, but will block water from reaching the roots.

Per Michigan State Extension quote "It's the ABSENCE of nitrogen fertilizer that promotes flowering and root growth, rather than the use of phosphorus fertilizer."

There's the blood meal on marigolds with no blooms.
I took chlorotic Sonia Rykiel out of the pot, put her into the ground, gave blood meal to green up. She went from 15 buds/blooms young rose in the pot, to 5 blooms for the next 4 months. That spot is wet & perfect soil.

I don't underestimate the slow-release power of organic fertilizer, the NPK value of blood meal is 12-0-0, but the staying power is many months. Same with alfalfa.

Nitrogen movement is a 10, potassium is a 3, and phosphorus is a 1, most stay-put. Nitrogen moves with water and is most leached out. Organics is the most-slow-released, so leaching would be least.

A better measure of nitrogen requirement is how much of it is lost, rather than how much is supplied. From the plant deficiency chart, from pH of 5.5 to pH 8.5: there are plenty of nitrogen in the soil. Only when it's more acidic than 5.5, or more alkaline than 8.5, that nitrogen is tied up.

The nitrogen requirement of my soil is very little, since there's no leaching in poor-drainage heavy clay, even with heavy rain fall. My best result was to winterize roses with alfalfa meal and soil, let the melted snow make alfalfa-tea for early spring release, then no nitrogen afterwards .... to force the plant to use phosphorus to make flowers.

I agree with Jeannie that nitrogen is required at early spring time to attain height after pruning, after that a few applications of balanced NPK manure is enough.

Below is a picture of most-blooms Francis Blaise, in October. It's yellowish since it's next to a tomatoe plant which steals its nitrogen. It's healthy, no disease, 100+ total blooms for its 1st year. Nitrogen-depletion isn't bad when it can be fixed quickly, more blooms, and less pruning.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Fri, Mar 1, 13 at 18:14