You have the two best Tammy. As expected, they are also the newest ones. Each decade, development raises the bar of health and vigor. In its time, Brown Velvet was the best of all the russet roses in health, vigor and flower production. Some were "browner", but as a garden subject, Brown Velvet kicked the others out of the running. Hot Cocoa did the same to Brown Velvet. Honey Dijon did it to Julia's Rose and now Koko Loko has done that to Honey Dijon. If you need more russet colors for the area, you're probably better off doubling up on the two successful ones for you. None of the earlier ones are as vigorous, healthy or productive as the newer ones. Through Hot Cocoa, I've grown them ALL. Brown Study wasn't much for me, either and that was in a rather low disease pressure area. Kim

'Brown Study' was a complete disaster in my garden; truly awful. Kim's comments about the others are spot on, of course.

Here's another - Chocolate Sundae - climber. I know it's fussy about climate, and doesn't like cold, so if it looked interesting, you'd have to research if it'd survive in your climate:

{{gwi:223189}}

I've been very pleased with Koko Loco.

Tammy,
Chocolate Sundae grows happily in my 7a (I suspect it is even 6b) zone garden. Love it, the color is out of this world.
Marina

{{gwi:223190}}

{{gwi:223191}}

{{gwi:223193}}

{{gwi:223195}}

{{gwi:223191}}

{{gwi:223197}}

I have 3 Dr Buck roses, 'Distant Drums', Mountain Music' & 'Honey Sweet'. They all have some tan tones to their coloring & a lttle better disease resistance.

I've had reasonably good luck with Hot Chocolate from Burlington Nurseries for the past two years (Simpson is the hybridizer). It's not quite as brownish as Hot Cocoa, but it's a similar color with a similar frequent bloom on a nice bush. Not as fussy as the other russets, but not as unusual either. Also reasonably hardy, though it's in one of my zone 6 pockets.

I also have had poor performance from Brown Velvet, Brown Study, and Tom Brown and Tawny Tiger haven't stayed alive long enough during the past two summers to rate any blooms. As Kim says, russets are hard.

Cynthia

Thanks for all the info and suggestions!

I am in LOVE with Chocolate Sundae...now I just need to find it! HMF lists Regan, but they don't have it this year (plus the Dr Huey rootstock wouldn't do well here). Garden Valley Ranch lists it, but I'm not familiar with them.

I also really like Hot Chocolate. I've seen it on Burling's listing, but I figured it was the Carruth rose which I already have. Interesting!

It is a shame that there's not more russet roses...I guess its just not a natural color for a rose to be, so they don't so well. My Honey Dijon is still in the ground, but looks nothing like Harmoney's. It did great the first year,but has been a dud ever since. I have Distant Drums and really like it. I'll have to look more at Honey Sweet too.

I forgot that I have Dragon's blood in a 1g pot right now...so far that one is promising as well :)

Tammy

I can't speak about its black spot resistance, but one not mentioned which might prove interesting is Black Tea. I'd read of it for years but it was never in the US, being an early 70s Japanese introduction. Seems a well known exhibitor in Illinois had brought it in and found she hated it, so she gave it to The Heritage in San Jose. I had a friend there send it to Sequoia and they introduced it into the US market. Along the same lines as Smoky, but tremendously better as a plant. It's no where near as vigorous as Hot Cocoa, but it's an HT with a larger flower. Burling, Rogue and Vintage are listed on HMF, but you'll need to check with to make sure they have it. As far as I know, the Hot Chocolate at Burlington isn't Hot Cocoa, but the Nola Simpson floribunda. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Black Tea

Tammy, I have these on order from Burling. I will keep you posted.
2 Sheila MacQueen
1 Hot Chocolate
Joycelyn
Butterscotch CL

Black Tea is really interesting too! It looks like its color is very close to Hot Cocoa.

Susan, do keep me posted on how those do for you. I've looked at all of them, but I don't grow any. Sheila MacQueen has a really nice color! Very unique...
I'm really interested in how the Simpson Hot Chocolate does for you...

I checked Garden Valley Ranch and they're not selling Chocolate Sundae either..ugh!

'Coffee Country' has brown and lilac bi-colored tones in cooler fall weather; very striking combination of colors. Available from RU.

Tammy, have you seen Julia's Rose? The one I had grew well for a couple of years, but then the deer (!#*@%*!) cropped it nearly to the ground. It never recovered. I'm not that far from you, and in my garden it varied quite a bit, from tan with pink, to cantaloupe with a brown center, to brownish gold (tawny?), to buff with gold and pink; ALL gorgeous on a gracefully shaped bloom. If you could find one, it would be a stunning contrast next to Chocolate Sundae. I think they would each make the other look more "brown".

I also have Julia's Rose on order. I went on a tan/russet binge order for a bit. I also ordered Butterscotch LCl.
I have NO expectations (after a very informative consult with roseseek) but if they give me a couple of blooms I'll be happy.
Thanks for the info on Coffee Country--I couldn't quite get a good image of it from the photos I've seen but I will add it to the list of those to try. These colors and combination of shades are very appealing to me. I don't know how they will appear in the garden but I think they would be gorgeous for cutting.
I'm going to try a tan/russet/lavender bed with some spikes of crimson and cerise. I've also ordered some very interesting gray/lilac Japanese morning glories.
I will keep ya posted.
Susan

Susan, you'll love Julia's Rose. It has such a graceful bud/bloom, and the colors, and I mean COLORS, are all intriguing and easy on the eyes. To me, some of the tan/brown/russet roses are downright dull and drab. Not this one. One caveat: the brown/tan is much more noticeable in the mornings, before the heat of the day, and lasts longer in cooler weather, obviously. But the brown is almost always present. My first and last flushes were gorgeous. When you get one of those golden-caramel-pink-edge blooms you'll spend hours trying to capture the color with your camera.

If it grows as well for you as it did for me pre-deer pruning, you'll have a winner. It never was what I'd call lush, but it bloomed well, and repeated VERY well for a brown rose.

Hmmm....*wondering why I haven't replaced it yet????*

John

You'll find with all the Coffee Roses prior to Brown Velvet, LIGHT pruning is best as most really aren't vigorous, especially own root. Julia's Rose particularly appreciates very easy treatment with pruning shears. My original one eventually developed into a tall (five feet), very narrow column. It was the top foot of that plant which sported to Golden Julia. It was identical to Julia's Rose except the entire plant seemed to have lost a gene for pink/red. Foliage, wood and prickles, as well as the blooms, lost the red pigments.

Modern Roses described the color of Julia's Rose as "copper and parchment". In the mid desert heat it was best described as "brown paper shopping bag". Not to disparage it because there wasn't anything remotely similar to it for many years. A dozen buds and blooms made an amazing Thanksgiving arrangement one year. Golden Julia is more of a cool, golden mustard. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Golden Julia

Hi Kim. Well, that explains why the deer pruning killed my Julia's Rose! I really thought it was my fault I couldn't resurrect her, lol. But I should have known. I always disbud my brown AND lavenders for their whole first year, in order to give them a good start on building a good plant. All I've tried, of either color (except for lavender Lila Vidri. Love her!) have been p*** poor growers. Julia just couldn't recover from losing so much wood.

Julia's Rose evidently likes our changeable, changing, weather more than the CA heat. Her color(s) is as unpredictable as our weather, here!

Kim, you have done a very bad thing. I didn't know there was a Golden Julia. It looks lovely. Now where did I put that credit card...

Oh boy! Now I have a list of russets that I'm craving! Hearng that they do well here on the East Coast and Deep South is promising! Plus, Burling sells a couple of them...I may have to place a small order :)

Tammy

Tammy, my suggestion for any and all of the browns is for the entire first year, dis-bud and spray. No matter how much you want to see that first bloom, you need to build a PLANT first. It seems to be the secret to getting more out of the russets (or lavenders, for that matter) in the long run. You might cheat and let ONE bud form in the fall...if you're a really good girl all year, lol.

John

A few years ago I isolated a striped sport of 'Jocelyn' that is quite striking. I passed it on to Rogue Valley Roses, and I am unsure what they did with it. Perhaps it will show up in their catalog one of these years!

As for 'Julia's Rose', that one met its demise thrice in ten years. I won't waste my time trying to grow that sulky wench again. Pretty, but hardly worth the effort for 6 or 8 decent blooms a year. For me, 'Climbing Butterscotch' has much better vigor and blooms with abandon three times a year.

This post was edited by trospero on Fri, Feb 1, 13 at 21:40

Trospero, I've seen your sport, Striped Jocelyn, on HMF a few times during searches, and I remember it because its such a beautiful rose! I've never seen a spriped rose with those colors...its unfortunate that it doesn't propagate well.

Tammy

This post was edited by TNY78 on Fri, Feb 1, 13 at 22:04

Paul, that striped Jocelyn is gorgeous. If RVR ever releases it, I'll have one, even though the original Jocelyn was the color of dried blood here. NOT pretty. She's gone, gone, gone. But I think the stripe might be just what she needs in this climate to lighten her up.

And I'll still take Julia's Rose over Butterscotch, in this area, even though she was a fairly weak grower. I got many more than six or seven blooms from her, and at least three (smallish) flushes the second year.

The first spring/summer, B was great, but by midsummer she was covered in BS. Thereafter, Butterscotch grew...and grew, but defoliated completely for me every year, no matter how much I sprayed; so she looked like some tentacled monster clawing its way up out of the ground. The few blooms I was getting looked like dead flowers on bare stems- appropriate for the Munster's garden, but not mine, lol. So she went to the great big garden in the sky, where BS will be no more.

John

This thread served to bring on fond memories of 'Black Tea', a rose that I've long wished could be found as a grafted plant. I see that Burling offers it, so I think I'll contact her to ask if she can graft one onto Dr Huey for me. If she can, it'll be worth the wait.

'Black Tea' is a rose that I warmed to gradually, and greatly missed after it succombed to hurricane damage several years ago. As an own-root planted in the garden, it was never very vigorous or very productive -- and it improved only a bit after I placed it in a large container, moved it to a partially shaded location and pampered it. The blooms it did manage to produce, though, really captured my fancy. I think a vigorous rootstock might make BT a real garden standout for me. Thanks for the reminder, Kim.

I got Tawny Tiger as a band last year and she grew nicely. She's very upright, reached about 3', handsome dark shiny foliage, no BS in heavy BS region. Fair amount of bloom for the first year. The single blossoms have an unusual shape that I very much enjoyed, adding some novelty to my floribunda beds. The primary color is deep orange-y red with darker stripes. She's in a sheltered spot and the foliage has remained green all winter.

So many choices! I just emailed Burlington the find out the availibility of a few: Julia's Rose, Butterscotch, Hot Chocolate & Edith Holden (which wasn't mentioned here,but looks very russet on HMF). I figure I can go from there :)

Tammy

Edith was decently brown, particularly when it was cooler. I grew Iris Webb until recently and it was a very healthy plant which flowered heavily, but demanded cooler temps to actually show russet. In higher temps it was more orange and taupe. I know, "that's attractive!" I would expect Iris to be healthier than Edith as it is basically Southampton X Edith Holden and Southampton is famous for creating healthy babies. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Iris Webb

wow, Kim. I've never run across Iris Webb before. Those pix from European gardens are incredible. I'm betting that our Spring and Fall would be cool enough to get those colors here. I'm not fond of orange, even with taupe, but heck, I could dis-bud her for the summer flushes, lol.

John

You can easily get used to the orange, John, when it's balanced with the purple hazing that creates the brown. Those kinds of blends impress my eyes as nearly French Impressionism. You KNOW what color it's supposed to be, but looking at it precisely, exactly, it's actually an amazing blend of colors which "impress" your eyes and brain as what color you expect it to be. Don't be afraid of the oranges, as they're not garish like a hard, metallic orange, but muted, tempered with the blending. Very subtle, sophisticated and rather delicious. Amazing that rose petals can create them! Kim

I spoke with Janet about the striped sport of Jocelyn years ago, and the problem with it was they could not get the stripes to be stable. The rose constantly wants to revert to the solid color, which is the problem with a couple of other stripers, like Abracadabra and Simsalabim. So, they probably never will intro it, as there would be too many complaints that a person that bought a striped rose ended up with a solid color.

Rusty, btw, does the same thing -- sometimes a bloom is striped, sometimes not. If you want a stable stripe in that color range, the only one I know of is Tawny Tiger.

This post was edited by kstrong on Mon, Feb 4, 13 at 12:26

Tammy----Is your Hot Cocoa grafted or own root??? If it isn't grafted on to fortuniana rootstock, your really missing out on one fantastic bush. I've had it own root, and on Dr Huey. Wasn't really happy with the bush or productivity. Bought one on fortuniana and WOW, what a difference. Big healthy bush covered in foliage from top to ground and packed full of those beautiful blooms. For me, there is no other way to grow this rose. I'm going to get Tawney Tiger this spring and grow it in a 5 gal pot until it gets big enough to graft some good wood on to fortuniana. I want to see how it reacts to a good under stock.

ooooooh. I am loving Iris Webb. DELISH.
Susan

Ken, My Hot Cocoa is ownroot. It seems to have done really well so far. I bought it as a quart 3 years ago and its about 4ft tall and a bloom machine! The only problem is, I planted it too close to R. Rugosa Alba and its getting crowded out.

I'm a bit of a chicken and have never tried fortuniana! I'm secretly using Susan (poorbutroserich) as my guinea pig since she's only about three hours west of me. From what I've been told, if I can get it through the first year, it should be established enough to handle our 6b/7a winters.

btw....Burling has Hot Chocolate, Butterscotch, and Edith Holden in stock for April, but Julia's Rose wont be available until summer or fall (it's a budded plant in a 1g pot...but I'm assuming she buds onto Dr. Huey, and without major soil ammending, I can't grow it here well).

Tammy

Tammy, verify with Burling, but she prefers Pink Clouds (linked below) for her chip budding because it remains bud ready much of the year. It's a miniature X multiflora cross Mr. Moore created back in the 1950s for use as a rose hedge. It's what Sequoia budded all their mini trees on for many decades. Burling has budded standards and most other roses on it for as long as I've known her. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Pink Clouds

Thanks for the heads up Kim! I'll find out for sure what she budded it onto :)

You're welcome Tammy! Kim

Happy to be a fortuniana guinea pig. I have Hot Cocoa coming own root and fort. So I am interested in comparing. I am really excited to receive my rose order.
Tammy our winter has been mild thus far. Today I counted 31 Robins around my various birdbaths. It is obvious they are ready for Spring! They were just bobbing their heads in and out of the water. Don't know why there were so thirsty....
Susan