P. Zimmerman has a video (posted here earlier in 2009) about what to do when climbers get leggy.

It involves pulling some branches down and tying them horizontally so that new shoots "break" at the lower level.

Denise

Denise, I want to say, "Is he nuts?", but I'll be cool. She is a very armed rose - and stiff. I'll see what I can do short of totally untying her since I don't have a death wish. She also doesn't like to be forced into positions. I've been finding dead canes after I pushed them into a position. Now I tie her pretty much where she wants to go. It's also quite shady underneath her. Maybe I'll wait for spring and new basal breaks. Thank you, Denise.

Sherry

Plant some bush Maman Cochets at the base. It looks like you have room there. I did a video on layering roses on an arbor and that method could be used for what you want.

Paul

Here is a link that might be useful: Covering an Arbor with Roses

Hi Sherry - You might put some potted flowers or plants there, maybe some Patience plants, they like shady places, and then you can move them around and the roots won't be a bother.... sally

There you have it, the answer from the master. I just reviewed his video and you've got some planting to do since PZ has 6 (!) roses in various heights on his arbor.
:-)

Denise

Paul, I didn't mean to cast aspersions on your sanity - much. I can't believe how lethally dangerous these stiff-caned roses are! It's like going into battle with a thousand swordsmen. The idea of planting the bush form under it sounds reasonable, but she's a big rose, right? Does MC take well to being espaliered? What about the shade issue?

Sally, potted plants are a good idea, and they'll be taller, too. I like impatience and periwinkle, too. They're staples in my yard - dependable and almost indestructible except for the freezes.

Sherry

OK, I watched the video again, and I checked the sun under the rose. It's not really all that shady right now. I can't put SIX roses there, since it's only 8' from the house and a necessary pathway. I have Princesse de Nassau, a Noisette - more importantly, a lax rose. I think I'll move the Princesse to fill in underneath since she's only a baby and in a tight spot now anyway. AND use a couple of potted plants. Thanks, Paul and Denise for the good information.

Sherry

BUT how about digging down there amongst MC's roots? Golly, how do I do that? Can I scratch a shallow hole, spread the roots and mound soil on top, raising the ground level to be filled around her with compost later on? I'll have to plant her to one side or the other. Don't have the depth to put her in front of MC. Ohh, doesn't MC make a fine trellis???

{{gwi:226887}}

Sherry

I don't have any advise for you, but just wanted to ask how do you walk under that big Maman without getting all torn up? I used to grow the shrub form of Maman, and I well remember her thorns. I do miss her sometimes though. A beautiful rose.

Randy

campanulas - especially persiciflora or any of the ground coverers. also, try annual climbers like mina lobata, lathyrus. Or try grasses. You could also grow clems - viticellas are easy, grow quickly every season - my current faves are Betty Corning or Viticella purpurea plana elegans (what a mouthful)

Sherry, the rose is only a couple of years, right? The roots can't be that massive yet...?

I'd try a couple of clematis also; they'll like to twine around those canes and they prefer shady roots and their faces in the sun. There are some that are more shade tolerant. I am not an expert at all, but have a few and am developing a real passion for them.

I seem to remember they like alkaline soil also... isn't that what you have??

Sherry, do you have any leather gloves, the kind from Home Depot? I wear them to prune and work in the canes and the prickles don't come thru' the leather... sally

Randy, there's an arbor to the right of the last photo and perpendicular to the trellis, and she takes every bit of it and then some. She needs tying at least once a month - maybe more - or she will snag you. On the inside of the trellis I keep her pretty tight to it and up high. She grows more toward the outside (the east) so she gets a little bushier on that side.

campanula, thanks for the suggestions, but you're always speaking Greek to me. What is with that? I wish I knew what you are talking about. :)) I'm living comfortably in botanical ignorance, but I am reading a good book about it and trying to educate myself.

Gean, she will be two years in the ground in February. Why do you think the roots won't bear some resemblance to the top growth? Maybe not identical but large nonetheless. I have no clue about the roots and no basis for disputing what you say. Digging there is a scary thought since I'd have to dig right up close to the base. Re clematis, I'm a little reluctant to take on a new addiction. My soil is probably around neutral, I think.

Sally, I use those latex-dipped knit gloves (they keep my fingernails cleaner). I tried leather gloves today. They were too bulky, but I didn't get stuck today at all, thankfully.

Sherry

I don't know much about MC but if she's anything like Madame de Sombreuil (the climber, I keep getting confused over the name changes, I hope it settles soon) nothing is likely to phase it. I prefer perennials to annuals because MdS's thorns can be lethal, too; I try to keep my distance as much as possible.

I've done ferns with success (japanese painted and autumn fern). I'm experimenting with hostas, too. So far the hostas aren't really performing like I'd prefer, but they're still new.

I've also done Feverfew. FF has small daisy shaped flowers and is basically a biennial that self-shows dependably.

I'm experimenting with the clematis Polish Spirit. It is a large vigorous vine. I have one on either end of the trellis so root contention isn't an issue.

Dennis, did you plant stuff right at the base of the rose? I only have 3 or 4 feet on either side. I was thinking of using 4" potted perennial plants since their root ball is so small, barely disturbing the surface and then mounding soil around them. But another rose would require a little more depth, I think. It's good to know that your climber isn't disturbed easily. Thanks.

Sherry

If you dig carefully you should be fine. Just do it as early in the season as you can before the climbers are fully leafed.

I've wrestled with some of the stiff caned monsters and I agree, it's no fun! I have a huge Silver Moon to prune that will probably fill up two videos.

The laxness of the canes is one of the reasons I like the Noisettes for Arbors.

With the bushes planted in between you should be able to just tie some of the canes to the trellis. They won't be like climbing canes but you can just point them where you want to fill in the blanks.

Paul

Sherry- When I prune I wear the leather glove on my left hand to grab the cane with, and a cloth glove on my right hand to hold the clippers, that way you have more purchase to cut with. and I keep a large laundry basket within reach to drop the canes into, if the canes are long you can cut them shorter before you throw them in the basket and keep the gloves on, and wear long sleeves and jeans to cover your arms and legs....... sally....

sherry - botanical ignorance - get outta here! clearly you know your stuff so am guessing you are being modest.
cheers, suzy

For smooth stems and small size, I'd suggest planting two regular bush form plants of 'Mlle. Cecille Brunner' in front of 'Maman Cochet'. M.C.B. has the advantage of being nearly smooth stemmed, very few prickles to catch your clothing. It also has beautiful foliage. The form from the 1800's is the smallest form which grows to be 4 and 1/2 ' to 5 feet tall, where I live near San Francisco, Ca.
-lovely fragrance too.
The spray form of Cecille Brunner' from the 1900's, gets to be huge, c. 7 feet in all directions, and is good for hedging and large spaces.
Luxrosa

campanula, persiciflora? mina lobata? lathyrus - maybe that's sweet peas? I can never remember what I've tried to remember the last time I read the seed catalog. Viticella purpurea plana elegans? I have heard of "clems - viticellas", I think. Are they type 3? Maybe not. I'm sure they're lovely, whatever they are. No modesty here. Botanical names may as well be aeronautical engineering. You're very lucky to have had some botanical education. It makes gardening much more natural, I think.

Luxrosa, I would love to be able to use your suggestion, but I have no room. She is literally on the edge of a 3' wide pathway. I have some Veronica or Angelonia (white, don't know which) and perhaps Princesse de Nassau, but really I probably don't even have room for them. It's called "over-estimation of available space". In other words, I screwed up. But thank you for giving it some thought. It would have been beautiful. Yes, I've heard that Spray Cecile Brunner gets huge here - and is well adapted here.

Sherry

clematis and roses are a classic combo but you will still end up with a tangle of bare stems in autumn. The viticellas are group 3 so you can cut them back to 30cm every winter. Polish Spirit is VERY vigorous here in the UK - it might grow MASSIVE for you guys. There is a gorgeous white called Huldine which looks especially good from below and you might also think about some of the texensis hybrids such as 'Etoile Rose' Finally, there are some newer clem hybrids coming out with ferny evergreen foliage and much shorter growth-Early Sensation I think is one such. Mina Lobata - Spanish flag, Lathyrus odorata are sweet peas but there are other lovely peas to try which are easy from seed - Lathyrus verna or Tingitanus. I have looked up Maman Cochet in my Rose encyclopedia - a very fulsome description - 'Maman Cochet represents the very best that tea roses can aspire to; made me think yum. perhaps in spring.....

Dennis, plumbago is a good possibility. I like the color, and I can trim it to fit the space. I don't care for it when it's all ragged and rangy, but I think it would be good neatly clipped.

campanula, I don't know enough about clematis to choose it for my garden except that most of the cultivars don't do well in our heat. I've done some research previously and found the names of some but then couldn't find the plants to buy. So I'm leaving it at that. I believe sweet peas can be grown here in the winter and early spring. We're supposed to start the seeds in August. I've never seen plants for sale in the garden centers.

Sherry