When you say you went at it with ethanol, what do you mean? Did you just dab it on the scale or did you spray the whole plant with the stuff?

Alcohol can cause major problems on some plants. I know a lot of people use it, but after frying some of my more delicate ones with the stuff I won't touch it again.

Kevin

That could be the problem then. The poor plant had so much scale I used a toothbrush dipped in the stuff to clean them off the leaves. I did not realize that they were so delicate. :(

Are the leaves permanently limp then? or will it bounce back? How do I proceed from here?

Larissa

I think it's the alcohol ......I've learned to be very careful with that stuff. I melted my nice little Gongora tricolor (seedling at that). Got out the_spray_bottle and blasted the poor little thing to kingdom come. DANG!! It started to change color right before my eyes and then turned into a green/brown goo. The stuff is great but you do have to watch what you use it on. Do a very small test area first...;0)

Larissa,

If that was the cause there isn't much you can do other than watch and wait. Alcohol can cause such rapid cooling of the leaves that it destroys plant tissue or seriously harms it.

K

Well I hate to be the spoiler but unless the alcohol was able to get to the roots and burn them there shouldn't be such extensive reaction IME. Alcohol is used all the time, full strength, as a contact pesticide for mealy bug and scale. It does not require scrubbing or rubbing in a gentle touch is sufficient.

Now I am not saying that it isn't the alcohol but to simply leave it at that overlooks another troubling aspect of culture that IMO needs to be corrected. The paph is in "large bark". That is already problematic but apparently the old grower was compensating for it. Did/will the o.p. find out what watering routine was being used? 1x/wk sounds like a recipe for wrinkled leaves to me as there is ventilation! Without the fan I might have still used a 2x/wk frequency. With a fan, its a must. Rest assured, 12" from a 27W CFL is not too much light.

H

Howard,
The 12" from the light is supposed to be a temporary measure which I was going to move closer over time. It is also getting side light from 3 55w 5000K bulbs which are about 2 feet away.

I guess I may have underestimated how often this plant needs water. I do not normally grow in straight bark and unfamiliar with it as a medium. I will need to keep a more careful watch from now on. Thanks for your input.

Larissa

I'm guessing that the limpness is due to a combination of [1] cultural/environmental adjustment, and [2] friction from (abrasive) toothbrushing broke the leaf cuticle and epidemis (outer layers), and alcohol got into the more sensitive cells underneath and did some damage.

When I use alcohol (50-70% ethanol), it's either with a Q-tip as applicator, or as a spray - never ever applied with abrasive applicator. Scales come off easily with a few gentle swabs of alcohol wetted Q-tip.

I think it's best to leave the plant alone with no more changes/stress, plus sufficient light and being careful with the watering can - and with time the paph should recover. Keep us posted and I hope it will turn out OK. alvin

Well if I got noid paph with scales I would dump the plant especially if I had other plants that are healthy near by, to much of a risk. With the amount of time, energy, and money that you are going to spend trying to bring this noid paph back to health you could just buy a named healthy paph. something you want, and forget the aggravation. It would be cheaper. If you are going to use this as a learning experience then realize you could be aggravated for while.
The first thing you should do is take the orchid out of the bark especially if you suspect a mineral buildup (ie salts). The flushing of the bark may help little but it will not solve the problem of a mineral buildup that has gotten to the point where you can notice it. Besides scales also attack the roots and the parts of the plants just below the surface of your bark. Manually cleaning an orchid of scales will get rid of many scales but not all of the juveniles. You should use a pesticide or growth inhibitor that lists scales as one of the pests that the pesticide or growth inhibitor is effective against. Follows the instructions especially in regards to repeat applications. Scales can hide deep in the recesses of the leaf folds.
Re pot your paph in a medium that you are used to using for paphs.
The limp leaves are caused by the scales and the alcohol but it really doesn't matter. The scales were going to cause the leaves to go limp whether you had used alcohol are not. Scales cut into the leaf cells sucking out mostly water and sugars. When you applied the alcohol, the alcohol also entered into the cuts the scale had made into the leaf cells. Both the action of the scales and the alcohol will make the leaves go brown.
A more radical way of regaining your paph's health is by taking a Ziploc bag large enough to hold your orchid, spray a little water into the bag, place the orchid into the bag. You can do this without it being planted in bark or not. In the beginning because you're still dealing with scales without bark means you won't have to repot when the scales crop up again you can see the whole plant and whether the scales are making a comeback, you can spray the whole plant with the pesticide or growth inhibitor. Then partially close the Ziploc bag, breathe into the Ziploc bag and blow it up like a balloon and close the bag the rest of the way. You can leave your paph this way for a long time. Every now and then opening the Ziploc bag and re-breathing into the back blowing it like a balloon. The one caveat to resuscitating monopodial orchids like paphs is you have to keep water out of the apex of the growing area.

painterart - you are bagging this plant with just water droplets in the bag and bare root? No sphag or any other medium to help hold moisture? I assume this bag would be out of any direct sunlight during recuperation?

TIA since I have a couple of sad paphs that might appreciate some extra TLC.

Brooke

I too have a sickie paph! How long in the baggie is 'a long time'? a week, a month?

'Every now & then opening the bag', same question, once a day, couple times week???

Thx. Sheila :)

I am not sure I agree with putting any sick plant into a bag, especially one that may still have "animals". The best thing for a sick paph is air and light. Seems like that is just asking for more problems. I do fine seedling bark and even a little soil for sick phals. mist it once or twice a day. Let it do it's own thing

Clara

Ok so given this plant is already stressed the feeling is that I should repot it? How well do Paphs in general react to the bag method?

Clara how have you rehabed paphs are you covering the pots with plastic? Everyone says less light for sick plants but that sounds like it would be counterproductive if the plant needs energy to recover. How do you light your sick paphs?

I am unfamiliar with fine seedling bark how much moisture is it likely to retain? More like spag or less?

Also since I am probably still fighting scale is there a pesticide that I can use with paphs that won't tip it over the edge?

Since this was a gift I do at least have to try and keep it alive. I am not concerned about the scale spreading to my other plants because it is kept far enough away on a separate plant stand altogether and there is no cross cultural contact. I would at least like to give this a shot. It is my first paph so I'm hoping my learning curve doesn't dip to much further into the melt the paph direction.

Thanks for all the advice.

Larissa

Hello Brooke,

When I suggested to Larissa if she uses a Ziploc that she not use any potting medium because she is fighting scales. If you have an orchid that has no roots you also dont need a potting medium. Here are some pictures of small paphs growths that broke off during potting that I ziplocked.
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This is the paph pictured in the bag above. You can see the new root growth just where the brown meets the green. There is a similar new root on the other side. This is after two weeks.
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This is another paph broken off during repotting. Root after about a month in a ziplock bag. There is a new leaf also growing from the apex, but you canÂt see it in this photo.

When the roots get about an inch I will pot them up in bark, continue zip locking until the roots get well established in the medium. You can use sphag but it breaks down very quickly in this environment.
What is happening is that the Ziplock bag is air tight, so the little bit of moisture that is in the bag stays in the bag creating 100% humidity. You donÂt need medium to hold the moisture. The bag contains it. Moisture travels into the cells that are desiccated. When you blow into the bag you raise the CO2 level up slightly in the bag helping with the plants carbon fixing. This helps in creating new growth. I admit not to do any experiment to prove this against not breathing in the bag and just filling the bag with air, but I feel reasonably assured that that is what is happening based on my experience and knowledge.

I assume this bag would be out of any direct sunlight during recuperation? Yes. Whenever any person, animal or plant is recuperating the less stress the better. The bag method does not guarantee that a unhealthy orchid will recover. Some are headed south no matter what you do.

Hello Sheila,
How long in the baggie is 'a long time'? a week, a month? Once a orchid has fully recovered or reestablished roots into a medium you can take it out of the bag. I once did an experiment where I had a paph that had no roots. I bagged it grew the roots, potted it, put it back into the bag, and grew it for about three years in the bag. I wanted to see how long I could grow it in the bag after three years I decided it could go for as long as one wanted. One caveat was it didnÂt flower in the bag. During the three years I would add water from time to time, once the roots were established a little water with fertilizer. The roots grew well even outside the pot and you could see the fuzzy root hairs found on paphs. There were a few growths and a strong root system when I took it out of the bag and flowered it. I either gave it away or sold it. I thought I had pictures of it, but canÂt find them now.

'Every now & then opening the bag', same question, once a day, couple times week???
Once a week usually but I admit to be lacs-a-dasial about it. I would sometime blow up the bags whenever they looked like they were going down. If you blow into them more regularly you will probably have better results.
Incidentally, I also use this trick if I am going on vacation, and some orchids need to be watered during the time I am not there. I havenÂt lost any healthy orchids

Thank you painterart for the description and the photos. I wish I had known this for my poor Paph. Spiceriana that I struggled with for months before he finally got sent to orchid heaven.

Brooke

Thx for the details/pictures on your baggie method. I have a very tiny Phal schilleriana that is doing NOTHING since it recovered from severe sunburn (so careless of me!). I think I'll experiment with it and bag it.

Hello Larrissa,

To answer your questions "Everyone says less light for sick plants but that sounds like it would be counterproductive if the plant needs energy to recover. How do you light your sick paphs"
I would say not direct sunlight for all sick plants even if you have shading on a greenhouse. Most paphs correct light requirement is fine for sick paphs also- intermediate light.

"I am unfamiliar with fine seedling bark how much moisture is it likely to retain? More like spag or less?" Less then sphag.

"Also since I am probably still fighting scale is there a pesticide that I can use with paphs that won't tip it over the edge? "
I use (or use to use I no longer have any pests in my collection) a growth inhibitor called Enstar. It is very expensive for a small bottle that goes a long way. It requires precautions to use. You may want to consider a mild insecticide Safer makes for scales or homemade concoctions. It will take some time of consistent use to get rid of scales no matter what you choose. There are harsher and very effective pesticides for scales, but I am reluctant to recommend any because you would have to take safety precautions and you sound like your growing in a living area. You can always use a search engine. Persistence is key.
As far as whether to bag it or not, I suspect your roots are not good when you wrote: that the paph had scales, planted in medium bark "When I got it the pot was very dry and there was evidence of mineral build up on the bark". It doesn't sound very well cared for. If you do by some miracle have good roots then you don't have to worry about the up take of water and don't have to bag it.