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newyorkrita

Fish, Fish, Fish

newyorkrita
15 years ago

Ok, no one yell at me!!!

Well, after getting my pump/filter going early this afternoon, I just couldn't stand it. I wanted FISH. So I drove out to the best place on Long Island, a place called Scherer and Sons and bought fish for my newly set up stocktank. This place has been in business for more than 40 years so I was confident in their stock.

I know I bought too many but after 15 years of no pond to have anything but feeder fish, I just had to buy them.

I got 1 Golden Orfe which was totally an impulse buy

2 Butterfly Koi

2 Sarasa

2 domestic koi

2 Shubunkins

I bought some water hycinth

a potted catail

1 potted parrot feather (to go with my potted red stem parrot feather)

some bunches of anacharis

and Azolla

Boy is the azolla small. The guy told me it multiplies like hot cakes.

Comments (33)

  • sheepco
    15 years ago

    I keep between 6 and 8 six inch goldie/comets (plus between 6 and 12 offsring - I try to give them away) in my 300 ga stock tank with lots of plants and a DIY skippy type filter. Works for me. I think when the koi get bigger you might need a bigger pond :) But hey, lots of people have too many fish. Hopefully the orfe will keep the babies under control. Someone once told me they tend to be jumpers, so watch for that!

    I love azolla, it does multiple like crazy, to the point that I was netting it out 1/2 way through the summer so I could see my fish! Some bigger fish tend to eat it I think, but that was my 1st year and my fish were 2" long. It did provide good coverage 'til my dwarf sioux waterlily filled out.

    I know you said you have raccoon visitors, but if you ever want to hang any pots on the sides I use 'S' hooks (hanging plant extensions), they come in all lengths, just drill 2 holes in your pot a couple inches down from the rim and about 4" apart. Stick the S hooks thru and hang the pot on the side of the tank.

    Sounds like it's going to turn out well. Can you post photos for us?

    Happy spring! Sarah

  • newyorkrita
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    The fish are small now but I know they will not stay that way. The two Butterfly Koi and the Orfe are alittle over 3 inches and the others are much smaller. I could of course have bought larger fish but remember well from when I used to have a pond that pond fish grew like crazy and I saw no reason to spend twice as much money. I have spent so much already on this stocktank pond setup that I will cringe when the credit card bill comes in.

    I want to keep the plants away from the sides because of the racoons.

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  • magdaloonie
    15 years ago

    Yep, you gotta post some pictures, Rita! I've been following your adventure so closely I feel like it's mine!

    I'm going this saturday to get fish, too. I worry that I'll over stock but Sarah is encouraging. I've got plans for two shubunkins and two sarasas to go with my 2 common goldies and 13 minnows. But then the goldies were acting weird yesterday. Jumping into the marginal pots and splashing around. One always follows the other anyway so I figure he's a male but yesterday he would really not leave the other one alone. Kept nudging her all over. I fear they may be spawning and I TOLD them not to! I TOLD them I was picking out my own dang fish and they were not to provide me with mutts. Geesh! Fish puberty, Whooda thought that would be a problem?

    I've got new plants, too. Blue pickerel rush, corkscrew rush (gorgeous!), pennywort, a yellow iris called Dixie Deb, variegated water clover, a Hermine water lily recommended by Terry in Canada and a bunch more anacharis that I'm going to root in pots of topsoil.
    Last year I had a sweetflag and a lizard tail in the same pot. They survived being munched to the water by the grasshoppers and came back this year but the lizard tail is looking really good, the sweetflag is tiny. I dug it out of the pot today and gave it it's own pot. I think it's smaller than when I bought it. I suspect it wasn't the grasshopper but was sharing a pot. Some places say you can do that but I'm now thinking that's a bad idea. Of course I just planted three of the new plants into one long windowbox planter. I'll probably regret it but I'm just having so much fun!

    Vanessa

  • ccoombs1
    15 years ago

    I really hope you also bought a test kit and some ammonia binder, because with that much of a load on a new system, you can expect a huge problem with ammonia for the first month or so. You need to keep a close eye on ammonia, nitrites and pH.

    You really should consider not keeping koi in that stock tank. Koi should have at least 250 gallons EACH. They will grow fast and put a huge burden on that little pond. Its really kinder to limit yourself to smaller species of fish like goldies.

  • westhighlandblue
    15 years ago

    I keep Koi in a small pond. They certainly don't have 250 gal each! But they do have high quality food, a good pump a biological filter, an air pump, a clarifier, and a nice pond lily that shades them in the summer, and they are healty after a full year. I carefully monitor their water quality and curse the water authority for switching from chlorine to chloramine. It will take a little more doing to keep your small pond healthy, but it can be done.

  • ccoombs1
    15 years ago

    You do realize that koi can easily grow to over 30"....right? In my opinion, forcing a koi to live in a small pond is like forcing a large horse to spend it's whole life in a small stall. Just because they will fit and they will survive doesn't mean it is the kind thing to do. There is nothing more beautiful than seeing a 36" koi swimming so powerfully across a large pond that she leaves a wave in her wake. Koi are not like goldfish. Small ponds should have small species of fish. Trust me...it is very hard to have a pet for a few years and then have to get rid of it because it has outgrown your pond.

    Cindy
    (certified Koi Health Advisor)

  • newyorkrita
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Sorry, I knew someone would tell me that I need 300 gallons for one Koi. Maybe some of you have lots of room but I don't. Yes, I know they will grow and yes I would like to have another bigger pond but this is what I have. I would never have a 3 foot fish even if I had the room.

    Ok, I will buy a test kit. I am getting lots of underwater plants and floating plants. Obviuosly not finished yet as I just started setting this stocktank pond up afew days ago. I have UV and bio filter.

  • ccoombs1
    15 years ago

    I understand that not everyone has the room or the desire to have a big pond, but koi will get big...like it or not! It's kind of like getting a great dane puppy when you live in a tiny apartment. You get attached to the little pup....but then it outgrows your home and you have to give it away. Might have been better off getting a poodle to begin with. Anyway....do you see what I mean? Your pond is perfectly suitable for goldfish which only need about 40 gallons or so each. Koi are just too big to be in a stock tank pond.

  • newyorkrita
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    My neighbor has Koi in his pond which used to be much smaller than mine and he enlarged this spring. When I asked him he wasn't sure how big the enlarged (liner) pond was but he didn't think it was much larger than mine. He told me he has had these koi for 7 years. I am guessing at the size but I think the largest koi was 7-8 inches.

    I had always thought that the fish grew slower in a smaller pond (after an intial jump because of more room). To get those large show type koi, I believe that you need a lot of room.

  • ccoombs1
    15 years ago

    Even non-show koi will grow large in a small pond, if properly cared for. Goldies tend to limit themselves to the size of their environment, but if koi are fed (and some people do not feed their fish), they will grow....and grow...and grow. I knew a lady once who had a koi in a teeny pond and the koi had grown so large it literally could not even turn around in there. I am passionate in my belief that koi should be treated like all other pets and be well cared for, and that means food and a proper environment. Forcing them to stay small by not feeding them is not a humane thing to do. I do have large koi that are almost like dogs. They like to be hand fed, they even enjoy being touched. They have personalities and I would never dream of treating them less than I would my dogs, just because they are fish. Sorry....that's just my opinion. And the 250 gallon per koi rule is for pet koi, not show koi. Most show koi are kept at a stocking rate of 1 fish per 1000 to 1500 gallons.

    A well cared for koi can easily grow to 18" in just 3 years.

  • asun1
    15 years ago

    Reading these posts about the size of Koi is raising some questions for myself. What am I doing wrong? I want my fish to grow!

    I have Koi that range in size from 3" - 8". They are in a 3000 gallon pond, and there are only 8 of them. They are about 1-2 years old. I feed them 3 times a day. I use Tetra Pond Koi Sticks....Am I feeding them the wrong kind of food? I know my water quality is fine and the filtration is superb. Do I need to be more patient? I read somewhere that Koi will not grow properly if the have internal worms. Could that be my problem? Should I feed them some Debride DW?

    Amanda

  • ccoombs1
    15 years ago

    Amanda, first of all, get yourself some really good quality food. It doesn't have to be expensive, but needs to have good ingrediants. Corn should not be one of the first 3 ingrediants. Corn is not digested by koi...it is mearly a filler that passes through them and on to the filters. Also, do at least a 10% water change per week. If koi have worms, they usually look unhealthy...like their bodies will be small in porportion to their heads. A healthy koi should have a nice torpedo shaped body. I feed my koi all they want to eat. I go through 40 pounds of food a month in the summer with them....they are pigs!! I spend a lot of time working in the yard and feed them whenever I walk by the ponds.

    Also...are you sure about the age of your fish? Some dealers sell fish that are already stunted and won't grow. They might tell you it's a one year old fish, when it's really 3. Once a fish is stunted, it will never catch up. Some properly cared for fry can reach 12" during their first summer, and can grow to 20" by the end of their second summer...but that's not typical. Normally, you can look for 6" first year, 12" second, 15" to 18" 3rd year, but it does vary.

  • asun1
    15 years ago

    Well...some of my newer ones...I cannot be specific on the age....but most of these I have had for 1 year now....so they are at least a year old. I have seen some growth, just not what I would like to see. I think you are right about the kind of food...I have been looking into switching. I think they will eat more too if I feed them more. My husband told me we need to feed them more. How do I go about changing their food with out bothering their digestion? Is it like dogs where it has to be a slow change, or can I just up and change one day all of a sudden?

  • ccoombs1
    15 years ago

    they won't be bothered by a sudden food change like a dog would.....just change it out and they won't even notice. I think Drs Foster and Smith (internet place) has a sale on koi food right now too. Good food (and to some degree genetics) is the key to growth. Just read the label. Select a food that is labeled for growth and you'll see results. Dont get the color enhancing foods because it can make the whites turn yellowish or pinkish.

  • pikecoe
    15 years ago

    I have 2 Koi-Hybrids that hatched 2 summers ago. They were about 1 in. long when I got them. They are now 18 inches and my other fish, Comets, Shubunkins, Wakins, Fancy Goldies, Orandas are all about 9-10 inches long. And the babies I had hatch last year are 6 inches now. I feed Pro-Gold and order it from Goldfishconnection.com I get the large pellets and the fish love it. It is a little pricy, but I think it is worth it. Glenda

  • ccoombs1
    15 years ago

    That's some good growth Glenda! Good food is usually not cheap, but it is SO worth it. Hikari makes some great food too, but again...read the label because I think they also make crappy food. Aquatic Ecosystems sells quite a number of different brands of food too in differnt price ranges. I have used AZOO food before and was pretty happy with it, and have used Blackwater creek's food also with good results (although it leaves a little bit of an oil slick on the water). Aqion also makes a good food but I think it's only sold in bulk bags (40#).

  • newyorkrita
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    I have lots of work to do and lots of planting to do but its going very slowely today as I keep going over to the pond to look at the fish.

    I haven't seen the Golden Orfe since I put it in there yesterday. I figgure its got to be there but you would think it would come out of the black plastic milk crate fish caves once in the while. The rest of the fish are very active, swimming all over the place. They love the flowing water around the splash from the pump. I think even underwatewr there must be a current going in that stock tank. When I turn off the pump/filter thinking I will see the fish better in the still surface, they go hide in the cave and refuse to come out. Turn the pump/filter back on and they come back out and swim around.

  • lsst
    15 years ago

    My understanding of Golden Orfe is that they require more than one of their species to school.
    Golden Orfe can also grow to 15 inches to 2 feet.

    I purchased 7 Golden Orfe about 1 month ago and they are so much fun to watch.

  • pikecoe
    15 years ago

    I know everything I have read say's they like to school. But I wasn't sure if you could have just one and it be happy, or survive. Glenda

  • westhighlandblue
    15 years ago

    It seems to me silly to object to keeping small koi in a small pond based on the fact that the darling will certainly outgrow their space some day. I own a Great Dane -- 14 month old Isabella -- the most beautiful girl in the world. And I keep koi. I can tell you that in the past year Isabella grew far faster than any koi ever could. While I will never give up Isabella, I anticipate that I will have to give up my koi once they have grown too large for my current pond, or, more likely, I will build a much larger pond. If I decide not to build a larger pond, I find no moral dilemna is keeping koi (in humane conditions) until they are large and then finding a nice home for them. Koi deserve the most humane conditions achievable. But they are not pack animals, like dogs. I doubt a koi that has been adopted out yearns for its former home, in the same manner that a dog might.

  • lsst
    15 years ago

    Hi Glenda,
    I think you were the one that in another post, did links to companies that sell live fish. Thanks!!!! That is how I found the supplier for the Golden Orfe.
    Several websites mention buying at least three for them to school. It also mentioned a large pond as they like to jump to get to insects.
    Funny thing, Out of seven, six like to school and one is a loner. He rarely schools and likes to do his own thing.

  • pikecoe
    15 years ago

    1sst, Thanks for that information. I wondered about them. I had thought about them for population control, but if you add more than 1, then you'll likely get overrun with Orfes. I wouldn't want the same problem I had with the bluegills. So I think I will count on the mamas and papas to eat as many of the eggs as they can and deal with the ones that do hatch. I do have a couple of local fish stores that will take the ones I want to get rid of. Glenda

  • lsst
    15 years ago

    Glenda,
    I bought them for population control, too but my understanding is that they need fast moving water to spawn so I am hoping they will not have the right conditions to spawn. So far, the Orfe have done a great job eating fish eggs.

    After your experience with the Bluegills, I understand why you would not want to try another type of fish!

  • newyorkrita
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Well, I wonder how long I will have the patience to wait until I take all the plants off the milk crates, take up the rocks and crates and look for that one Golden Orfe that I have yet to see from the minute it was released into the pond.

    I don't like this. I can't see how it could hide forever and never swim around like the other fish do.

  • pikecoe
    15 years ago

    I would guess not very long. Glenda

  • newyorkrita
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Well, I lasted until today and this morning I took everything out of the pond. No Golden Orfe. Nothing, nada, zip, zilch. Not dead or floating, just plain not there.

    I am really baffled as to what happened to it.

    I would love to buy more but since they really do need afew to school that means buy at least three, 5 would be better. Then that puts more fish (that grow large) in my pond. Plus I just can not understand what happened to the one I had.

  • goodkarma_
    15 years ago

    Rita, It may have jumped out and was later taken by a critter. Sorry it is gone though.

    Lisa

  • westhighlandblue
    15 years ago

    I lost a beautiful red koi, the same way, just a few days after first putting fish in my pond. It seemed to have disappeared. I later found it in my driveway. I think a neighbor's cat got it. I've kept black bird netting over the top of my pond, ever since. I bought it pretty cheap at Home Depot. No disappearances since then.

  • lsst
    15 years ago

    I would rethink the Golden Orfe. They require a large pond and have a tendency to jump to get to insects. I have already seen one of mine clear the water to get at a dragonfly. If I had a small pond, it would have been on the ground.

    They also grow large very fast. I bought 7 each at 3-4 inches long and put them in my pond on April 3, 2008. As of today, They have grown as large as my largest Sarassa which is between 6-7 inches.

    Here is a link to info about Golden Orfe

    Here is a link that might be useful: Golden Orfe

  • lsst
    15 years ago

    Sorry, I thought your post said you were thinking of buying 3-5. I see now you had not planned on getting more.

  • newyorkrita
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    I really like them. Hopefully in the future I will be able to put in a bigger pond and I can try again with the Golden Orfes and do it right by getting about 5 or 6. For now I am going to pass on them as I see the advice the guy in the pond store told me that one was good, was wrong.

    Meantime I rewarded myself by going back to the pond store and buying two new fish. I got a stunner of a butterfly koi in a strange metalic almost mustard old gold color. I know that might not sound attractive but the fish is lovely. Also a most beautiful deep almost red "goldfish" with the most long, long, long tail and fins.

  • newyorkrita
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Well, so I took a water sample to the pond place in town were I bought my pump and filter setup.

    Some of you think I have too many fish so with a heavy fish load I wanted to do a water test. They will tell me later what the results are and I will know how good my water is and if there is too much or too little of whatever in the water.

  • newyorkrita
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Yikes. I can't believe its only been one month that I have had this Stocktank all set up and fish in it. Its been such a big part of my life now that it just seems like I should have had it for much longer.

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