Hi :) I don't have my air movement optimized yet.. but I think it's important that there is both air exchange as well as air movement within. You don't want a gale in there, but a gentle movement, I think.

Hmmm... do you have any issues with being able to keep the humidity at desired levels with air exchange? That's the only thing I'm worried about. I measured the humidity of my room last winter, and I could not manage to get it much above 30%, and many times, it was probably more like 15-20%. I'm going to try getting a new humidifier to see if that helps things, but if I don't manage to get one before winter starts in earnest, I'm concerned that I won't be able to keep the humidity at a good level within the enclosure. Even in the one I have now, if I open it at all, the humidity begins dropping rapidly. I've been able to keep it high during the summer, but now that it's getting cooler, it's getting tricky. Aerangis citrata did NOT like the low humidity last winter, and has only been perking up considerably after months in the makeshift enclosure. I'd like to keep the momentum going.

Just wondering how it goes for those more experienced than I am...

Sooooo... I am in the last stages of building my ang enclosure, and I'd like to proceed, but I want input as to whether it is preferable have a ventilation opening or not. It will determine if I need to cut a fan opening in my acrylic sheet, or if I can leave it intact and just mount the fan within. I really really want to finish this project before things come up again and I have to leave it by the wayside indefinitely.

Will pictures help?

Aerangis kirkii:

{{gwi:201446}}

Enclosure, almost done:

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Different view:

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Sorry for the work-in-progress mess. You can't tell very well in the pics, but there is one wall missing... the one in which I would potentially cut a fan opening. Thanks for your help!

Great pictures! Sorry I didn't respond - I was waiting for someone more experienced with enclosures to chime in too!

In regards to your first question, YES I do have severe problems with keeping humidity up. I am tackling this problem myself in my 80 gallon tank. Humidity rises to around 90% after the misters go off, but then drops quickly to around 40% which is a no-no. I am having problems finding a way to cover the top of the tank (right now, there are two pieces of crappy glass and a piece of acrylic incompletely covering the tank, and I have a fan for external air exchange over one of the gaps....VERY ugly).

That said, you do need some external air exchange. If you have a top that goes completely over your tank, that should help. However, how large is that tank? If it's too small, your fan may offer a disproportionally large amount of air-flow. If it's small enough, you may get away with a fan blowing around inside, and some venting slits for air exchange.

A point of warning - acrylic will warp if kept at high humidity. For tanks that are sealed together, that's fine, but for things like doors, hinged lids etc..., you will find that the warping will eventually rip the door or whatever it is off the hinges. From your pictures, it seems that you have a pretty good length of hinging across the top (where did you get this thing made by the way!!!) so you might be able to get away with it, but I'm not sure.

Back to the humidity problem - I'm starting to toy with the idea of actually having a few inches of water at the bottom of the tank, and running an aquarium filter in to keep the water clean and fresh. You can then suspend a false bottom of egg-crating over with some pots as stands...that way you have constant evaporation and constant humidity. This is an alternative to actually laying moist gravel over the bottom of the tank (mine is too big for that I think). I know someone from calgary (very dry) who did that, and even without a covering, his humidity jumped to 60%.

Hope that helps - I've done a lot of brainstorming as well...and I agree 100% - you really have to get things going when the momentum is good...otherwise, everything gets put on the back burner.

Beautiful kirkii by the way! :D

-Cal

Hi, thanks for your response. Let's see, where to begin? My acrylic box is 1ft high by 1ft deep by 2ft wide. Not huge, but not tiny. I built what you see so far last night, after I finally got it together to order the last few sheets of acrylic. I had this idea I would make a prototype box first, but then I decided to just go for it... then I had to get over the anxiety I would do it colossally wrong and waste my money, but it looks pretty good so far. It consists of 3 12x24in sheets of acrylic 3/16in thick, 2 (eventually) 12x12 sheets of the same thickness, reinforced at each seam with a square acrylic rod 1/4 in thick (I think), and topped with a 12x24 lid 1/16in thick, and two pieces of 12in hinge. All seams were joined together with acrylic cement, which basically melts the acrylic together (and is a little tricky to work with... it runs like water). The lid will be framed by the same 1/4in sq rod.

I'll be using a little computer fan (about 2inx2in, I believe) and I'm trying to decide right now how to mount it. I was originally going to cut a little window up top, make a little shelf for it to sit on, and have air exchange that way, but then I wondered about the humidity issue, the dilemma I'm in now. I'm also planning on putting in a little shelf for the thermometer/hygrometer. I haven't decided what to place in the bottom... I have notions of making it kind of like a terrarium, with the angs not planted within, but placed within, perhaps on a pebble tray? Something that allows me to mist freely and not worry as much about bacteria/mold/algae growth... but this needs more research... I just feel like if I had plants (like moss and small ferns) in there using the extra moisture, I wouldn't have as much bacteria/mold/algae. but this could just be wishful thinking : )

Well, I've got more brainstorming to do, I guess : ) Especially if I'm going to be cutting a window... not the easiest thing to do to a 3/16in thick acrylic sheet and no power tools!

I've made this suggestion before to other orchid hobbyists building a terrarium...not sure if anyone actually used my idea or not.

Since you sound pretty handy, you could easily build a small air chiller with a few inexpensive parts, which would also solve your humidity issues. You need two computer fans, one for intake and the other for exhaust, one or two small aquarium air pumps, one or two aquarium bubblers (the kind with the wall of fine bubbles), some ducting, and two Rubbermaid containers.

The exhaust fan pushes air into one of the Rubbermaid containers, where the air pumps are located. They take the air and pump via the air tubes to the second Rubbermaid container where they are bubbled through the water, and the intake computer fan draws that charged water out of the container and back into the tank.

That's a "closed loop" system. Alternately, you could simply use one Rubbermaid container with the bubblers, and have a single computer fan drawing air from that into the tank. The exhaust exits via a crack on the opposite end of the tank into the room. This open loop system avoids the potential issue of the pumps overheating by running in a closed space.

This allows you to keep your enclosure a little drier otherwise, and avoid potential fungus and algae issues. The charged air gets the humidity to the level you're looking for (coupled with good air movement), without the addition of excessive amounts of water.

Looking for a better nighttime differential? Drop some ice into the Rubbermaid container with the water and bubblers, before bed.

For drilling holes in the acrylic, look for the oversized drill bits for cutting holes...forget what they call them.

-Bruce C.

Bruce - that sounds like a neat idea for supplying moisture charged air into the enclosure. I'm just curious - what is the advantage of the closed system? (I don't see the function of the first container with the fan.) So just to make sure I've got this straight, the bubblers fill the air in the container with moisture rich air, which then gets pulled into the tank - does that sound right?

The ice idea is great - especially in the summer.

Thanks for this idea - I had something similar rigged up, except with a ultrasonic humidifier (container with water in it and ultrasonic humidifier, and a hole cut out in teh container above the water line, and a fan blowing into the top to push the mist out of the hole, resulting in air flow as well as humidity.) The problem was that the reservoir ran dry too quickly, and I also had excessive moisture build up in the direct stream of the mist...

quinnfyre - I've heard of that acrylic glue - strong stuff!! Ddi you get your acrylic precut somewhere? What you could potentially do is make the shelf for the fan to sit on, except instead of having the fan draw in dry air form outside, have it draw in air from a 'humid' chamber like the one bruce is describing.

I think the closed loop system I described might have a slight advantage with a bit higher level of humidity, although I've never tested it. Using an open vent, you can't control the humidity loss very precisely, and it will take some trial-and-error to get the exhaust hole sized correctly such that the CFM from the intake fan is balanced as it exits the chamber.

The most challenging part of the construction of this system is the ductwork. Finding tubing that matches the diameter of the fan might take some looking. It's possible that rubber radiator hose might work -- maybe from a diesel engine? Although it doesn't provide a smooth interior channel, another possibility are the expandable downspout extenders to direct rainwater away from grass/gardens. (Has the added benefit of being easier to snake around to an out-of-the-way place where the Rubbermaid container is stored.) From there you'll need to custom-cut it and glue in place. There are special fittings for attaching hose/ductwork to a flat surface. They have a flange, and the tube part of the fitting slips inside the hose from the other side of the flat surface. You'll need one of these fittings for the tank, and the other side where you attach to the Rubbermaid container. I recommend "Goop" for glue -- it beats just about anything else I've ever tried on a variety of projects.

Most Home Depot and Lowe's stores have a huge selection of PVC parts and hoses. You should be able to find what you need there.

The principal of this is similar to the air chiller I use for my greenhouse. On a large scale, the effect is substantial...especially when the outside humidity is under 50%.

-Bruce

I just re-read my post and realized I didn't answer your question about the first box in the closed-loop system. That would be where the aquarium pumps sit and draw the air from the enclosure into the bubblers. Depending upon the length of the ducting to supply that box, the exhaust fan helps "pressurize" the box and keep the air moving through the system.

I discovered with my greenhouse that an equally-sized fan on the intake will nearly double the airflow. (Because of design considerations, I also need the intake fan to operate the chiller.) This effect is probably nil with the closed-loop system above.

As I mentioned above, I think you could have good results with the open system, and avoid overheating of the aquarium pumps.

-Bruce

Wow, thanks! I need to print this out and diagram it... that would make it easier for me to evaluate how I'd actually execute this. I think I'm going to finish my enclosure in stages, due to time and financial restraints. I'm also thinking about getting a Dremel, which may make it easier for me to do things like cut windows and drill holes.

Calvin, I ordered the acrylic sheets online. One place will cut them to any specification, within reason, no extra charge. The other doesn't state whether or not they'd do this, but they have standard precut sizes, and had much better prices. 12x12 and 12x24 are pretty standard, and that's part of the reason I chose those dimensions. The rods only come in 6ft lengths. That's an interesting pkg to receive. I believe I got a funny look from my roommate when that arrived.

On the annoying side, I just got a really nice humidifier... with a defective hygrometer. It is reading 29%, but my hygrometer in the room reads 55%. It feels like 55%. I've seen reviews since (why didn't I see them before?) that state that this is a common problem and that customer service is horrid and worse than useless. Oh well. It doesn't seem to be in any danger of going much higher than 55% anyway, so I guess it's ok.

Will post updates when things happen. Right now work is eating up most of my time. Oh well to that too...

This is where I'm at now:

{{gwi:201449}}

Still working on things, but making progress. The case is 90-95% done, I'd say. I have to decide how I want to place my thermometer/hygrometer, and my fan, but other than that, I'm not planning on doing more work to it, for the time being. I also haven't finished deciding what is actually going to live in it, and how. I think I'll be mounting kirkii, and possibly citrata also, but not immediately. We'll see how Phal. equestris does. I'm guessing I'll mount it too. I've decided that if I can keep the humidity up, I'd rather be able to see the roots.

Humidity has been staying in the 75-90% range. I have a fan circulating air, and the lid is not air-tight, so there is air exchange. (You're right about the warping, Calvin. The lid is curling upwards. I'll have to keep an eye on it, and decide what to do about it.) The orchids themselves will not be growing in the hydroton, as I'd rather be able to keep them accessible and separate.

So, the cast of characters as it stands right now: Aerangis kirkii, aerangis citrata, phalaenopsis equestris, angraecum didieri, aerangis mystacidii, mini AV trailer Little Lizzy, and petrocosmea flaccida.

Side views:

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Fun! Aerangis citrata has perked up visibly from living in the new case for only about a week. Leaves plumped up, and a spike (maybe two!) is progressing nicely.

Very nice!! looks great. I think it's good you're not growing them in the hydroton itself - you don't want the sharing of pathogens, and all the roots tangling together could get messy. Keep us updated. Do you keep water under the hydroton to keep it wet?

Well, I only just added the hydroton portion of it today. I did put a layer of water in, maybe about an inch deep? Humidity has held steady at 91% all day. Temps did creep up to just under 75F, but stayed steady there too. I'll have to keep an eye on it all. I think the fan is circulating air well enough, but we'll see. I'm happiest about citrata; it's had to deal with the most time in an environment it clearly wasn't fond of: 20% and under humidity levels last winter, and a bout of serious underwatering when life got away from me during early summer, and then months in a temporary case with zero air movement. So to see it perk up and take off is really gratifying.

I love the idea of Bruce's humidified air circulation system, but I can't pull it off right now, and my angs didn't want to wait any longer to move in. Maybe we'll give it a try when it is well past the holiday season...

You have kirkii, right? How are you growing it? I received mine in sphag... took one look at it and said, no way, bad news for me, and repotted it in one of those open plastic baskets with loose large pieces of bark, my closest approximation of mounting (had no mounting materials). It also had to spend time in that temp case with no air circulation, and it sorta pouted... but the new leaf is green and shiny. I'm trying to decide how much light it wants.

I was trying to think of a less-expensive and easier method than the one I described above, and you may like this one better:

Since you're putting water in the tank anyway, set up those wall-o'-bubbles in the bottom to blow through the water and get diffused through the hydroton. It may take two or three, and maybe a couple of pumps. Maybe one large pump could drive several bubblers...not sure. An aquarium shop could make suggestions. The airflow will go up and out the top, and the fresh air is supplied via the air tubes.

-Bruce

Low-tech solution here, with minimal air movement. Also, I've only got 2 Angs - fastuosa and biloba, and only the fastuosa has rebloomed. Dunno if this is going to work long-term, esp. after seeing and hearing about y'all's Ang Heavens.

The biloba may have been sidetracked by being mounted, then unmounted, then mounted again in the 12 months I've had it. It's put out 2 new leaves and lost a couple.

The fastuosa was in spike last Feb. when I got it, had 1 flower, rebloomed once w/ 2 flowers, and is in spike again. Since last June, the poor thing has been unmounted, put into 2 different media, and remounted in mid-September. I kept knocking it out of the pot because the roots stayed too close to the surface.

It was outside its 1st summer but not this last one, and the biloba has been in the house the whole year. Inside, light is E/SE, supplemented by 2 T8s on each shelf.

The 2 Angs are in an 8"x 7" glass candle-holder w/ stones and water in the bottom. (Only the fastuosa is in this shot.) Dunno what the humidity is inside:

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The glass container is on the top shelf. Two days of 3, it's covered w/ a plant saucer, soon to be replaced by a clear plastic one. The third day, any air circulation comes from a fan on the floor:

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Maybe you should call the Ang Rescue Group first thing Monday morning to take mine into protective custody!

Whitecat8

WC - weren't you growing a ghost like that? hows that one doing? Love your setup! I know a lady who grows her angs like phals on a window sill and gets ridiculous blooms...maybe all this enclosure business is nonsense! Who knows! :)

Q- I'm in the same boat as you - those fans I had just got too annoying and now I have no airmovement at all. I might try bruce's idea with the bubblers, but my tank is so big I feel like I do need some sort of fan in there. Glad to hear about the citrata! Some of these guys are really forgiving, especially I think if you catch them right when they're ready to try again initiating a growth cycle. Good job! I have two kirkiis - one of them is mounted on cork, with little to no media at all. The other one is in medium bark in a pot. They're both putting out new roots and leaves, so I think both ways work decently. The one in the pot seems a little more vigorous, but time will tell which one fares better (I think the one in the pot might be a stronger clone).

-Cal

Actually, I do have a fan, now. I didn't have it set up before, and that's when citrata and kirkii were cranky. They started looking a little blah, and may have gotten some fungal spots. I eventually put the fan in the temporary case, which is even smaller than my current case, and that helped, but now that they are in their new case, citrata looks great. It's even putting out yet another new leaf. Kirkii looks okay; the old leaves are still kinda blah, but the new one looks perky. Time will tell.

I wish I could grow them on a windowsill. But I know I can't, based on how citrata reacted to last winter. It wasn't on a windowsill, but it also wasn't enclosed. So, it started shrinking.

Whitecat, I would love to be able to grow plants that close to the floor without some form of barrier. But one famous patented butt-bounce from the cat, and all of them would be overturned onto their sides, probably daily. Her butt-bounce has been known to move dining room tables and open my roommate's stuck door. And she's not big. She's very round, but tiny.

About how your angs are growing, hey, whatever works, works. I just had fun planning and building this project, and it makes life easier for me. It also serves as a room focus, and a display case. Rather than have them hiding out in some corner of my room (they ARE little) they are now a major focal point, and clearly visible. And I'm sure the bright light is functioning as light therapy for me, somewhat. Really, the best way to put it is that angs were an excuse for me to build the case, which was an excuse to get more angs... which for some reason sparked an interest in pleuros?? What am I doing to myself? I see another acrylic case in my future...

Q - the cat factor makes perfect sense. In the winter, I can shut the door to the orchid room. In summer, a combo of a baby gate, wired to full extension and placed vertically, a wastebasket with a suitcase on top, a box with heavy contents, a crock with a brick in it, and the bathroom wastebasket keep out the cats and dogs while allowing air flow. Ugly but functional.

I'd rig up a terrarium too, if I couldn't shut out the could be 'chid killers.

Going from Angs to Pleuros could be a straight line in my brain, too. I've got some warm-growing Pleuros and want more.

Calvin, the Ghost still seems happy in the glass cylinder.

When I got it in spring, 2006:

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Two shots from last month:

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I don't expect it to bloom, but it's fun watching it grow.

Whitecat8

Oh the ang enclosure is solely for the angs' benefit, and nothing to do with the cat ; ) The fact that I put nothing near the floor, however, is because of the cat. I'm lucky in that she is largely a floor cat; she doesn't jump on counters or tables or shelves, for the most part.

The ang case has kind of become the ang/pleuro case, now. What's in there now: aerangis citrata, aerangis kirkii, aerangis mystacidii, aerangis biloba, angraecum didieri, phalaenopsis equestris, pleurothallis grobyi, pleurothallis amparoana, pleurothallis alata, Little Lizzy (mini trailer African violet), petrocosmea flaccida (tho it seems to hate me), selaginella kraussiana 'gold tips', selaginella uncinata, adiantum raddianum 'fragrantissimum', tillandsia ionantha. They're all so delightfully little, they all fit in there. This is probably very close to a final list, depending on whether or not the non-orchids decide to croak, and whether or not fastuosa will fit in there. The angs have been growing visibly, almost daily. It's exciting!

BTW, that ghost orchid is neat. Very arachnoid.

Pics as it stands now:

Top view
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Right view
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(Photobucket seems to insist on loading this image sideways, and I can't get it to change. My apologies.)

They look SO comfy in there!! Great job...what a beautiful piece you've got setup. I love it...keep us updated on how the angs and others enjoy themselves in there!

-Cal

Whoa, check it out... the pic's loaded right side up now! Makes my comment look kinda silly... oh well.

I gotta say, adding the other components helped not only the appearance, but the odor. It smells good now. There was definite funk going on when it was just hydroton and water. Yuck.

Now I'm curious. I've seen Mr.B's setup, and now Whitecat's setup, what does yours look like, Calvin? If I'm not being too nosy... if I am, I'd also just settle for some more ang photos : ) I've only seen kirkii in bloom in person, and it came that way.

Hey Q - what components are you speaking of? The sphag?

I grabbed some quick photos - they're not very good, but it's kind of hard to capture things in there. I'll try and get some more later!

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This is the whole tank. There's about 5 inches of water beneath the egg crate because I was experimenting to see what this would do for humidity. It helps, but I've run into two problems a) algae is growing and b) the water from the misters is causing the water level to rise too high. I think I will drain it soon and just rely on the misters to supply humidity. I'm not sure what I should do about the excess water that will inevitably accumulate at the base of the tank because it doesn't evaporate fast enough...

{{gwi:201458}}
These are the misting nozzles I'm using. They are a little hard to attach to the edge of the tank though so I need to think of a better way to stick em on.

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A view from the top, right side. Yes, that is a jumellea comorensis mounted on a piece of loofah! It sounds like a much better idea than it actually is (I thought - hey it's kind of tree-ferny in texture - wouldn't this be a great renewable cheap source of mounts!). It gets dry way too fast, I'd say more like cork than like tree fern.

{{gwi:201460}}
A view of the left side. Pictured are:
Hanging - Dend. capra, Schoenorchis fragrans, Cattleyopsis cubensis, dend senile, ang biloba

Others - random angraecum, aeranthese grandiflora, jumellea ibityana, coelogyne cristata (not too happy...keeps putting out a gazillion new growths that are small and stunted...any ideas?)

{{gwi:201461}}
Phal enjoying the tank...equestris seems pretty sensitive to high light actually

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I'm using the tank for rehab...this guy was pretty much rotten to the core when I pulled it out of the mess it was potted in 2 months ago. Threw it into S/H and it's putting out new roots already. Guess the light and humidity help!

I'll snap some photos of the angs (only leaves and roots though) soon! The two kirkii's I have seem quite different, and it would be interesting to see what people here think

-Cal

I topped the hydroton with fir bark, then topped that lightly with a phal mix I have around, mainly because of the charcoal bits in the mix, but partially for aesthetics. There is only sphag in the section with the maidenhair fern and the selaginellas, and they are the only ones actually planted into the medium (mixed in with a little light AV soil as well). Maidenhairs in my experience tank quickly when they're not happy, so the fact that it is still around and green feels like a good sign...

I took the plunge and mounted kirkii, and it looks like it likes that. I also mounted phal equestris, and it's looking good too.

Your setup looks more high tech than mine. I have a mister... it's me with a lab wash bottle : ) Yeah, not technically misting. I like it because I can hit the roots without getting water anywhere I don't want it. Your setup also seems to be more conducive to growing taller things, and treating the mounts more like mounts (hanging them). My mounts are kinda propped up here and there, and the tallest thing in there is actually the fern.

What is that fascinating green and orange guy up there? Looks like a dend of some sort... I love that color combo.

Everything looks happy, green, and plump! (I'm also finding 'random angraecum' kinda amusing...)

Calvin isn't that the Dend. tobanse you have pictured in the above post? Mine looks just like yours :>) Do you still want a picture?

Brooke

Q - LOL - that was me too! I was misting by hand, but I realized I didn't have time to mist everything, everyday...plus, I don't think my system is as closed as yours, because everything is bone dry within 5 hours of misting. Misters let me have some moisture a few times a day although my timing cycles are still a bit messed up. The misters do have the downside of not being able to aim directly at the roots...I am still trying to get everything setup so I have optimum misting, especially when some things don't want to be as wet, and other things want to be wetter - :-(

That orange lipped guy is Dend Peng Seng, a primary cross between tobaense and cruentum. I love that color combo too!! You should try growing some of these black-haired dends..some of them stay small, and enjoy the humidity of the tank. Brooke - the lip on this one is not nearly as awesome as tobaense, so if you indeed have one, I'd love to see a pic :-)

-Cal