The main bed I've put them in is roughly 20x24. I've been doing it for a few years. What happens is that my brothers ice fish, so they save all their guts for me, and i just build up a good pile. In spring they thaw out, my garden thaws out and I bury them about a foot down. My nutrient levels are probably through the roof. Its amazing that most of the fish is just tossed in the garbage. You guys are right about animals. I swear my neighbor dog was digging in my fish guts a few years back after i had buried them. An option would be to put down a big board or some heavy fencing (cattle panel) over the top of the guts for a few weeks.

Hman, According to the EPA, they look at the following criteria before granting reduced risk status in descending order: *human health effects - very low mammalian toxicity - toxicity generally lower than alternatives (10-100X) - displaces chemicals that pose potential human health concerns [e.g., organophosphates (OPs), probable carcinogens (B2s)] - reduces exposure to mixers, loaders, applicators and reentry workers *non-target organism effects (birds) - very low toxicity to birds - very low toxicity to honeybees - significantly less toxicity/risk to birds than alternatives - not harmful to beneficial insects, highly selective pest impacts *non-target organism effects (fish) - very low toxicity to fish - less toxicity/risk to fish than alternatives - potential toxicity/risk to fish mitigatable - similar toxicity to fish as alternatives but significantly less exposure *groundwater (GW) - low potential for GW contamination - low drift, runoff potential - runoff mitigatable *lower use rates than alternatives, fewer applications *low pest resistance potential (i.e., new mode of action) *highly compatible with IPM *efficacy. Reduced risk products are gaining usage for the obvious reasons. That's one thing frequently omitted from discussions like these. The point is frequently made that organic methods will become more effective as their technology advances. However, advances in synthetics also continue to make them safer and more targeted. For example, I use an insecticide called Intrepid. It is so targeted that crops in full bloom (like blueberries) can be sprayed without fear of killing bees (Yes, I know about the theories of pesticide load in colony collapse disorder. I'm sure some are aghast after reading this, thinking Intrepid could be playing a role, but all I'm saying is that from the extensive testing done so far, Intrepid appears harmless to bees, while very lethal to OFM and CM larva.) As technology has advanced the EPA continues to phase out older more risky chemicals in favor of newer ones that have a much higher margin of safety, But the argument is always made, we may find out in 20 years these newer chemicals are unsafe. Granted, but as a society, we test with the best technological methods available. Yes, there are horror stories, but they are not limited to just agriculture (using white phosphorus in matches, mercury in the manufacture of hats, Paris Green to paint with, poorly designed cribs that choke babies, poorly designed accelerators that cause people to crash, Thalidomide-the most horrific) but we don't get rid of matches, hats, art, cribs, cars, or pharmaceuticals. We use the best technology of the time to assess risk, and keep moving forward. Fruithack, I really don't know that much about grapes (I've got one vine-Himrod) and even less about California grapes. Let me just say I'm surprised at your experience. Peaches are near the top of the list of the dirty dozen. I know something about peaches, and they are not sprayed anywhere near every 4 days. Hman, I'll make one more argument that commercial practices can have a place in home orchard situations. I'll use your words from another recent thread: "I don't think there's a single commercial orchard that uses disinfectant as part of normal pruning regimen except maybe for pruning out fire blight and black-knot. I never use it and have never regretted it."

I'm getting "the picture". Thank you for putting up with my pedestrian - and occasionally redundant - questions. I'll check, but I really don't think I can find worms locally other than "fishin' worms" (very large night-crawlers) at Walmart, and that wouldn't be "cheap" even if they were the 'right' worms. "On the floor" is doable for increased heat as it will transfer directly to the bins. "In the sun" is actually doable. I just built a couple of "planters" that may be almost perfect outdoor worm bins, at least for this neck o' the woods. The back (north) wall of these planters is the south-facing wall of my shop. They are about 2' deep by 2' wide by 8' long. They are stone-walled (landscaping blocks), and "harvesting" could be a pain if I don't come up with an innovation of some sort, but not only would they get the most sun regardless of season, they would also get some heat from the shop in the winter. I just raise fish for fun. You can go here www.biopar.com to see what I "do". I will post separately about the zooplankton 'farm'. Here I can extract a little 'revenge'. :) "Just" go out to any local lake or pond, grab some submergent vegetation, (Elodea sp. Vallisneria sp. or whatever you have other than "scum" and benthic algae), throw it in a 10 gal tank, ($9 locally in AK), bubbling gently is usually better than no aeration, and "stand by". "If you build it" they will grow. If you want to supercharge your zooplankton farm, buy two or three FEEDER goldfish (usually 10 cents each), and another 5 or 10 gal tank. Put the goldfish in that tank and inoculate WITH LAKE WATER. (It has the "proper" phytoplankton for your area.) Put tank in direct sun if you can without parboiling the goldfish. Indirect sun is very nearly as good. Just don't let them get too hot - over 80 degree F water temp. (Goldfish are actually a cold-water fish.) In 5 to 7 DAYS the water in the goldfish tank will be "pea soup". Goldfish are very high nitrogen producers which is usually the nutrient most needed by phytoplankton. Feed this soup to the zopes growing in the other tank. DO NOT put goldfish in zope tank or soon no zopes. DO NOT TURN THE GOLDFISH LOOSE WHEN YOU ARE FINISHED WITH THEM! Give them away, or flush them down the toilet or, if you want to "euthanize" them as humanely as possible, put them in water in a ziplock bag and put them in the freezer. They will go to "sleep" and freeze. Or you could actually eat them yourself. Other than feeding fish, I don't know why one would want to 'farm' zooplankton, but I'm sure someone will have a novel idea. I suppose they could be added to a worm bin for some form of nutrient, but I don't know off of the top of my head what that would be. Bear-proof - not an issue one way or the other, :) but I haven't seen any bears around my place for several years. "I would try stocking about 1/2 -1 lb of worms per sq' ". That translates to 1.5 to 3 pounds per 24"x18" indoor bin, and 16 to 32 pounds in a 4'x8' outdoor bin. Based on the cheapest prices I have been seeing on EBay, that would be $550 to $1100 for four indoor bins and two 2'x2'x8' outdoor bins. Yikes! I can buy a lot of fish food and bagged soil for that kind of cash. In-floor (radiant panel) heating is indeed "good". Couple it with a ground-coupled heat exchange system (I do not have one, but I have a friend that does), and you move much closer to 'off the grid'. As for keeping fish 'warm' when the power goes out: I built my house of what are called "SIPS" or structural insulated panels. http://www.premiersips.com/ The walls are 8" thick (R-32) and the roof is 10" thick (R-40). A few years back, we had a 102-hour period where the wind-speed did not drop BELOW 90 mph. ("Hurricane" is 70 MPH.) Gusts - frequent gusts - to 120 mph. I'm sure "you" didn't even hear about it, and yet it was like having a category 2 hurricane on-site FOR FOUR DAYS. While the ambient temperature was only about 0 to 10 degrees F, the wind-chill was colder than -60 degrees F for that full 102 hours. (By the way, wind-chill effects ANYTHING - living or not - that generates heat; a car, a person, or a house, etc.) The power went out shortly BEFORE the 102-hour interval I mentioned. When the power came back on at the end of that interval, I was just about to go out and get "auxiliary" heat because the temperature in the house was down to 45 degrees F, and the house is about 3000 sf. (As a result of that event, I now have an auxiliary generator that my house "plugs into".) All of which was/is irrelevant with respect to the fish, as they are native North American fish, not "tropical", and can handle most temperature fluctuations in my house. Over heating is actually a bigger issue than too cold. Actually, because I couldn't keep the house COOLER than about 80, I just last week turned my heating system to "stand-by". We're down to about 70 now. Your collective enthusiasm is heartening. I am much more enthused and optimistic about "worming" than I was when I started this thread. Thanks, Paul

Hi bulldinkie, Change can be hard! But if your doctor is encouraging you for health reasons, you have an extra incentive. We went vegetarian 18 years ago because DH's doctor recommended it to. At that time, trying to eat vegetarian meant very limited choices, but no more! I really like Vegetarian Times magazine, it has lots of good recipes, but you could check it out at local library. What are your favorite food dishes, or were you kind of just a meat and potatoes kind of person? I would recommend you start simple. The organic Horizon milke is a good start, make sure you get the lowest fat you can tolerate. Second, think about dishes you make regularly that you can super duper easy change to vegetarian. (I'm not talking vegan, which is a very healthy lifestyle but much more restrictive on ingredients) Basically any recipe that calls for ground beef is easy to change over. You can buy the MOrningstar Farm meatless burger crumbles at your local Target, Kroger etc. The burger crumbles will replace your ground beef. You can use it to make meatloaf, tacos, enchiladas, stroganoff, spaghetti sauce with meat. All these are just converted by using the crumbles. Morningstar also makes sausage crumbles that are great for making gumbo, fried rice, things like that. So for now I would cruise the regular grocery store and check out Morningstar Farms and also check out the Amy's line of frozen foods. If you have a Whole Foods near you they are excellent for getting TVP (textured vegetable protein) and all your organic needs. Organic vegetables can be found at your local farmers market if you get there early, they sell out fast. Cutting out fried food or fast foods alone will go a long way towards improving your health. I'm not sure what else to say, but will check back. I think you will do just fine if you take baby steps for the first couple of weeks or month so you don't feel overwhelmed...