Christopher, soil type as well as climate are going to significantly affect the spread of all of them. Heavier soil with colder temps will limit them. Spreaders in my endless summer and lighter soil spread like oatmeal on a two year old. Kim

The first three on your list are my very worst thugs. Charles de Mills is the worst because of its situation in a mixed bed (now not at all mixed). From one plant I have at least 25. Belle de Crecy is easier to pull out because it's in a hedge of gallicas and hybrid gallicas heavily mulched with bark chips so the suckers are not deeply rooted. The greatest problem there is to tell the suckers apart from the roses I want to keep. I have almost accepted the spreading of Cardinal de Richelieu, it has room enough. My fourth worst offender is Nuits de Young, the moss. Nearly all my roses are grafted, the norm in Sweden. I have pass-along gallicas on their own root as well but I am very careful about where I plant them.

I only have 2 on your list..Tuscany Superb and Charles de Mills. They were grafted bareroot; purchased and planted from Pickering May 2010. My thought..grafted would not sucker as much.
So far this has worked out. They are both about 5-6' tall and about 4' wide. They form a triangle with Salet in the middle.
They are a beautiful sight when in bloom. The velvet petals are astonishing.
Due to 2 crazy hungry horses we had to move them this winter..Hoping they survive the move. They had an extremely long tap root. Difficult transplant. Be careful where you plant them as the transplant was not fun.
We hope they survive the torture and horse nibbling and stomping...time will tell.
Enjoy yours..
Jeannie

I find the sucker problem to be very irritating. Yes Charles de Mille is the worst. Mine spread through a bed and out a rock wall and now is sprouting in the gravel pathway below. Tuscany Superb doesn't root as thickly but it does root widely(very). I'd like to tell you that Nouveau Monde isn't a problem. This is it's third year in my garden. There's no problem with it yet but I suppose that could change.

Duchesse de Montebello is very well behaved unlike most of the others due to its supposed china blood. It stays relatively put; it suckers but the suckers are manageable and turn into elegant plants in their own right. I love DdM

My Damask Leda and Tuscany Superb are much more thuggish.

Oath5, thank you for the input. I'll keep Duchesse de Montebello in mind as one which will be tame enough in the main beds if I run out of room in the Gallica bed. And if I'm still pressed for space, I'll take a risk and put Nouveau Monde there as well. Should I assume Duchesse d'Angouleme might also be relatively restrained in spread?

And thank you everyone else for confirming why I wanted to keep them walled off from the others.

:-)

~Christopher

Christopher, I believe you posted some time ago suggesting comments for your rose garden design? And you posted your plan? I apologize if I am mistaken. If I am correct, would you be willing to share your design again and advise us of any changes or additions?
Thanks!
Susan

I couldn't have posted about something that doesn't exist -- haha! I have ideas of where some will go, but had a tough time deciding, and ended up ordering more than I needed and will plant them slowly over a year or two. But a specific planned design? No, I just have general ideas of what I'd like to do.

My basic plan was filling areas, and I have two areas with evergreen shrubs (arborvitae, I think?). One area is bordered by cement, the other is separated from the lawn by a retaining wall made of railroad ties. The area by the cement already has the shrubs limbed up to about 5 feet in height, and I planned to do the same to the other area. That's where the Gallicas are going, since I didn't think something reblooming would be able to compete with those roots. For later color, I was going to plant some clematis and perhaps a front edging of annuals.

I have another area in the front of the house with a Japanese maple about 12 feet tall in a very tiny patch of grass. There's a low retaining wall of railroad tie making a little border framing my small elevated front porch. I picked out 'Souvenir du Dr. Jamain' to grow under the dappled shade of the Japanese maple against the railing of the porch on one side, and on the other something with a contrasting color -- I was thinking of using 'Jude the Obscure' but might pick something else.

The Japanese maple itself has a very open growth, and I thought of planting something to climb it. My first idea was 'Jaune Desprez' and I ordered that, but now I'm having second thoughts. I think I'm going to put 'Purple Skyliner' to go up the tree instead. It would get full sun for several hours a day until it reached the branches at about 6 feet from the ground, at which point I'd hope it would start stretching a bit to peek through the tree leaves.

The tiny patch of grass around the tree in front of my house isn't worth maintaining, so I'm mulching over it and turning it into a flower bed. I could fit another two medium or three small roses in there, but I don't know which.

My house is a tiny one-bedroom "cottage" next to a normal-sized two-story house, both on a shared lot. The area with the evergreens bordered by cement is on my side, and the more plantable portion of the yard is on the other side -- but both sides are shared by both houses, and my landlord gave me permission to "plant whatever I want, wherever I want." There's an elevated back porch on the other house, which is begging for a bed to wrap around it. The top of the railing around the porch is about 8 feet above ground level, so I thought it'd be pretty to have some climbers and tall roses there. The bed will extend out about five to six feet from the edge of the porch, and I can fit a bunch of plants in there.

Then there's the fence, forming a line connecting the proposed bed around the porch to the bed by the evergreens (where some of the Gallicas will go). Again, I planned on a couple of climbers or tall roses, as well as some smaller ones to form the skeleton of the border.

So I had general ideas of planting areas, and general ideas of size and shape of roses to use as the "bones", but few instances of "this rose for that spot." I had an idea of alternating colors for contrast -- light next to dark -- but no specific color scheme (such as "this is the yellow and apricot bed, this is the purple and pink bed, etc."). Next year, perennial shopping will begin, and that will be what I use to blend things along.

How did I pick what I ordered? I had some criteria. I like fragrance a lot, so for the most part, everything I have coming is ranked high in that regard. I am fascinated by the older look, so I also leaned heavily that way. However, as a sort of side thing, I thought it'd be interesting to have a few dark red or crimson fragrant Hybrid Teas as "pot pets" to be used as "thrillers", with annuals as "fillers and spillers." I had in mind general plant shapes that would work for me -- the only big roses I could fit would have to work as climbers against the fence or railings or up a tree, so really nothing coming will be a broad and spreading bush (except for a couple Chinas). I have a few smaller bushy things, like Portlands, small Bourbons and a couple Polyanthas. Since so many of the old roses come in shades of white-pink-red-purple, I needed some soft yellows and apricots -- and that's where the Austins came in. I also thought it'd be interesting to dabble with hybridizing, so I also selected with potential parents in mind.

In the end, I'll likely be moving pots around a lot before deciding what will go in the ground and where, but I'd rather have the plants in front of me while I'm figuring out the layout. I can get a better feel for how something will grow and how it will look if I can actually see the plant in front of me. Any that don't end up being planted here (or kept as pot-pets) are going to my former roommate, who bought a house last year with her boyfriend.

:-)

~Christopher

Christopher, for some reason I thought you had posted a color layout of your design. Sounds like you and I are designing the same garden. I'm essentially planning and progressing as you are. Something I'm doing this year is wintersowing annuals and perennials. Lots of folks here encouraged this and I took the leap of faith and tried it.
I've got quite a bit starting to germinate and high hopes for the others. I'm spending the big dollars on the thrillers and using seed for fillers and spillers.
Also growing vast variety of herbs. Are you taking photos? Have you posted what you have on order? Thanks for sharing your thought processes and plans.
Susan

I saw that posting with the color layout, but that wasn't me. I just moved to this place in New Brunswick, NJ this past summer, but plan on staying here for a few years while I'm in grad school (starting fall 2014). There's really nothing here so far as a garden, so I have a rather blank slate. But I don't have a tremendous amount of room....

There's a thread on the Roses forum asking about what roses people have coming for Spring. I listed all mine there, as well as the six I have on my porch right now.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/roses/msg010018408621.html?52

And because I'm incorrigible, I just ordered four more....

'Lady Hillingdon' (I'm just finding out that there are teas growing in NJ!!!)
'Spice' (see above)
'Souv de la Malmaison' (A favorite of mine from a past garden)
'Rosa moschata' (because, well, I wanted yet another fragrant white single, so now I have 4...and this one will be a part of my exploration into hybridizing)

I took pictures of the yard to serve as "before" shots, as well as pictures of the roses I received as bands last Spring to show their growth in their 2-gallon nursery pots. I just put the "before" shots of the garden into an album on photobucket -- click the link below to see the pics. I put info in the wrong field, apparently, so my intended "captions" are actually image titles. Click on the image to enlarge, and then click on "More" in the lower right corner of the image to see the entire "caption/title." And like I said, I ordered more than will actually fit. Oh, and I didn't take pictures of the front of the neighbor's house, which is larger than my side but will also get planted by me. If I'm going to be here for a few years, I can't keep looking at an ugly yard -- hence the first pic in this album.

:-)

~Christopher

Here is a link that might be useful: My NJ Garden

Pics of bands about 3 1/2 months after receiving and repotting. Wow, I really miss that bright sunshine and warm weather right now....

:-/

~Christopher

Here is a link that might be useful: Scroll down for my post

Yes, I feel the same about the weather. Ok. Now I "know" you. You are growing only OGRs? Your space seems nice. Lots more shady than mine and I'm further south. It's nice to be starting with a blank slate together. I'd love to ask you some questions off the forum. Would you mind emailing me at
Dee I Cee Tee A @comcast dot net?
Thanks!
Susan

There are a few moderns in my mix, but about 2/3 are what could be called OGRs. The yard is shadier because of that awful callery pear tree which will be either drastically pruned back or (preferably) removed entirely this spring. Email sent.

:-)

~Christopher

Thanks for sharing your plans because it is fun for me vicariously.
I'm sure you saw the post which included it, but from the responses you've gotten I might would invest in some of that "bamboo barrier."
I have no experience with it, but it sounds like a worthy ounce of prevention to me.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bamboo Barrier Thread

Where I planned to put them, they would already be blocked off from spreading elsewhere. The thing was that I might have gotten a couple too many for those two spots, and wondered which would be tame enough to plant elsewhere. I won't put rampant spreaders where I don't want them to spread, so if worse comes to worse, I'll have to find another blocked-off area...even if it isn't in my yard.

:-)

~Christopher

Understood. Good planning. I try to plan for the best case and against the worst case if that makes any sense. I just couldn't get mendocino_rose's "out a rock wall and now is sprouting in the gravel pathway below" image out of my mind. And iced with "I suppose that could change." Oh my heavens. I still can't; the picture is vivid because I've seen similar and experienced the battle of wills that the rose always won anew each year (or at least every other). Earned my respect.
Anyway, I'm sure it'll be fine.

Let's see, from your list I have grown the following:

Belle de Crecy--an EXQUISITE rose and my favorite gallica by far. My original plant came own root from Vintage years ago. It didn't do much for the first 2-3 years as it settled in, never suckering or growing taller than 2 feet tall or so. After that, however, it became a prolific though easily controlled suckerer and was never less than 4 feet tall. The color is truly wonderful and I have never seen a photograph that does the flowers true justice. To my nose, it has a strong and delicious fragrance that wafts, very different from many "typical" gallicas. Long ago, before I moved to the city, some suckers from my original plant were transplanted to my parents' garden in zone 5b Michigan. Those plants are still alive and thriving with absolutely no care. My parents also love this rose and last summer I was able to transplant some suckers to my new garden :-)

Charles de Mills--yes, this is a rose that could eat the world. My own root band came from Heirloom many years ago and was vigorous from the start, sending up multiple suckers the spring after planting. It is gorgeous in bloom and I can't help but swoon over the "sliced off" buds and the amazing, swirled, quartered beetroot purple flowers. It has a typical gallica fragrance which some noses can detect easily, but mine cannot, so I never really found it very fragrant. Suckers from my original plant have formed thriving thickets at my parents' house. The only way its control is spread is by mowing around it, but otherwise it thrives with no care. Gets some late summer mildew but it doesn't affect the vigor in any way.

Duchesse d'Angouleme--I really wanted to love this rose. My plant came as an own root gallon from Vintage and was never very strong. I suspect this is just a weak cultivar. I had it for three seasons. The first season it didn't grow or do anything at all. The second and third seasons it grew slightly and produced exquisite blush pink blooms with a face powder fragrance on extremely weak, floppy stems. I gave this rose the best care I could, but it just wouldn't thrive. It died the following winter, even though it was milder than normal, and I was so exasperated I never bothered to replace it. That said, I have read several reports of gardeners in warmer zones who have had wonderful success with this rose. Either it does not like colder climates or it just hated me :-)

Tuscany Superb--another rose that photos can seldom do justice to. I received this as a mislabeled band from Heirloom in the mid 1990s but I ended up liked this rose more than the original one I was supposed to receive. Wonderful, velvety dark red-purple blooms with a typical gallica scent that for some reason was very strong to my nose. It never produced many suckers for me in the years that I grew it, but the transplanted suckers at my parents' house have settled in to be a moderately suckering thicket over the years. It also gets some late summer mildew, but again it does not affect vigor in any way.

Hope this helps,
Ispahan

I did some bed-preparation today. These pics show one of the two beds where I intend to plant the Gallicas and Hybrid Chinas (and perhaps 'Botzaris'). The other bed is almost as long and also with limbed-up arbor vitae.

I am planning to put "Darlow's Enigma" and "Secret Garden Musk Climber" in here as well, one at each end. I'm leaning heavily toward "Darlow's Enigma" going behind the pine, and "Secret Garden Musk Climber" going in the corner next to the garage. I was thinking of putting 'Bubble Bath' in the center, training it to climb by attaching wire between the neighboring arbor vitae trunks using eye-ring screws. I was thinking that by adding the three climbers, I'd still have ground-space for the others.

So, considering that....can I still fit 4-5 from the list below in here? All will be own-root. My "planting plan" amounts to simply alternating light and dark -- so next to one of the white climbers will be a dark Gallica, then a light or striped Gallica or Hybrid China, then a dark, etc. If only 4 would fit here (plus "Darlow's Enigma", 'Bubble Bath' and "Secret Garden Musk Climber"), I'll stick 'Botzaris' elsewhere.....that one doesn't take over the world, does it?

Botzaris
Cardinal de Richelieu
Charles de Mills
Duchesse d'Angouleme
Duchesse de Montebello
Georges Vibert
Nouveau Monde
Sissinghurst Castle
Tricolore de Flandre
Tuscany Superb

These pics are from last year, before I did anything to this bed:

This year, I limbed-up the arbor vitae and the pine, cut down all dead growth I could reach, and removed that "weed tree" by the garage. Everything I cut down I painstakingly snipped into small bits with my clippers and spread the trimmings in the bed. Trunks or branches too thick for that were kept aside for possibly making tripods for other areas in the yard. Dead leaves from last Autumn were already spread out under there.

Today I did a bit more trimming during the peak sunny time back there, removing branches which prevented light from hitting the ground in the bed. Later in the day (when the sun wasn't so brutal), I went back again and sprinkled blood meal all over the trimmings in the bed. Then I spread cardboard I saved from moving boxes over all the trimmings to cover the soil surface, and spread cedar mulch about 2" thick over that. Finally, I watered it all in. The cardboard should be soft enough to dig through by Autumn, when I'll be planting in the bed. I kept going until I ran out of mulch. Oh, and I know the fence is coming unattached...I'll have to screw it back to the post next time.

Here is how it looks now. I know it seems horrid because all you see are bare arbor vitae trunks, but rest-assured they tower 25-30' in height, and are still green and full from about 8' up:

The corner spot behind the pine where I want to plant "Darlow's Enigma"

The corner by the garage, where I plan to put "Secret Garden Musk Climber" gets morning sun at the ground, plus dappled sun until late afternoon higher up.

And this is where I ran out of mulch, but it shows the layers going on:

Thoughts? Madgallica, I hope you come to this thread again.

:-)

~Christopher

This post was edited by AquaEyes on Thu, Jul 4, 13 at 21:57

A thought: your repeaters are all quite huge. You might think about a few smaller polys among/in front of the gallicas, to give you blooms against their greens later in the season.

Thank you for the suggestion. I was thinking about that, but was also leery of planting small repeat-bloomers in these two beds, thinking that root competition from the arbor vitae would be too much. And I was afraid of them getting lost as the Gallicas and Hybrid Chinas spread. I'll see if I have any small ones left after I start figuring out where I'm going to put things, but I was intending to just tuck annuals in the bed to provide color after the main rose bloom...maybe a few summer-blooming perennials...and definitely some clematis.

I do have a few polys and other smaller repeaters in my inventory (see My Page for the full list). What would you suggest to tuck in among the Gallicas and Hybrid Chinas? I'm open to suggestions.

:-)

~Christopher

This post was edited by AquaEyes on Fri, Jul 5, 13 at 0:22

Though I am an ardent advocate of own-root roses, I would seriously consider growing any gallicas (or rugosas) on an obedient, virus-free rootstock if I could find them. I am thinking of Pickering, currently out of reach for US gardeners. Alas.

Rosefolly

I understand, but where I wanted to put them is walled off from the rest of the garden. Anything that spreads beyond the bed pictured above will get eaten by the lawn mower. The other bed is bordered by concrete. Thus both are essentially islands. I figured that anything that can spread by suckering will be able to compete with arbor vitae roots. And my ideal would be for them to fill the beds.

The other areas in the yard where I will be planting will not have any Gallicas, and probably not any Hybrid Chinas (they're already starting to sucker in their 2gal pots). If I was planning to put them into other areas, yes, I'd look for grafted. I've learned a lot through this forum -- thanks to all -- and obsessive research.

:-)

~Christopher

I've become very fond of Ville de Toulouse and Belle Sans Flatterie because they are less floppy than many and, while they do sucker, have a tidier appearance. I have many on your list, but most are too small to comment yet. I've put in a lot of gallicas the past few years. I have several shadier spots, but it is deciduous shade, so the roses get sufficient sun for spring bloom. Also, the deer dont eat gallicas, so they are a good choice for the 'back 40,' where they can sucker to their heart's content.

How big is the space? Also, everything is going to grow towards the sun, which in this case is going to be away from the fence. It is good because the blooms will be facing the observer, but individual canes are going to flop into the lawn.

{{gwi:219772}}

This is Darlow's Enigma AFTER my DH hacked it back into little pieces. We are trying to keep it to a ten foot circle. It may not be happy tucked back in that corner, but if it is, I think it will come out over the edging, and pretty much cover everything to the cardboard. It is not a climber, but a really, really, really big shrub.

You'll have to get somebody else to comment on the monstrosity of Secret Garden Musk. It may have climate issues in NJ, though I think Florence has it.

Unless you have been holding out on us regarding garden space, Charles de Mills has to go there because of containment issues. With Tuscany Superb or Sissinghurst Castle on the other side, that may be the bed. I don't grow either of those, but I think I've heard Sissinghurst is a bad one.

When trying to get various plants to play well together, they don't always cooperate as planned. Arborvitae root systems may be too fibrous to easily get through.

I'll try to remember to get out sometime today and take some current pictures.

Thank you for coming to the thread, Mad Gallica!

I do have another bed which is slightly shorter than this, but similarly walled off -- pavement rather than lawn meets the edge. The list of Gallicas and Hybrid Chinas are meant to be divided among these two beds because they are the only spaces which are contained. For the corners in that bed, I planned to use 'R. moschata' and 'Reverend Seidel'.

The bed pictured in this thread is 5' deep by 27' long. The semi-circular part by the pine extends to 8' at the furthest point from the fence. The other bed (bordered by cement, not pictured here) is 4' deep and about 20' long. If 'Botzaris' doesn't spread rampantly, I'll use it elsewhere, leaving me 9 Gallicas and Hybrid Chinas for the two beds -- I'm thinking 4 for the smaller, and 5 for the larger.

I've seen pics of how big "Darlow's Enigma" can get, and yes, in full-sun it does become a huge shrub. I've also read about (but never tried myself) growing it in more shade, where it tends to stretch and climb more than getting broad and bushy. I was hoping it would work that way here, and thought that the corner behind the pine would also give extra spreading room. As it grows, I planned to try to keep it pruned narrowly below, and spreading wider at the top, and letting canes go into the pine and arbor vitae. I will probably continue to thin and/or limb them up a bit more, but I'll have to wait until I can get the ladder out of the garage. I went as far as I can reach without one.

Am I still cramming too much in there? I can put 'Bubble Bath' elsewhere. I appreciate all thoughts and suggestions, and thanks again, Mad Gallica, for commenting.

:-)

~Christopher

Mad Gallica, I just re-read your post. So you're thinking that the bed would be full using three Gallicas? If I skip 'Bubble Bath' for the center, can I get away with seven roses altogether (the two white climbers plus five from the Gallica / Hybrid China group)?

:-)

~Christopher

When we were baby rosarians, just starting out, the standard spacing given by all the catalogs for gallica/hybrid china roses was to plant on 4 ft centers. We found out the hard way that the 4 ft was very much English spacing, where they are growing grafted plants, and keeping them very well pruned. So for a variety of reasons, 5 ft centers is more realistic, though by no means generous spacing.

27 ft/5 ft between roses = 5 roses plus some wiggle room. That would be the gallicas only, and not the big white things. I think you could cram in the white things, and two gallicas, but you are making good use of air space in that scenario.

My Darlow's Enigma is in the shade. This may be a better pictures of where it is.

{{gwi:219774}}

The white flowers on the upper right side are DE. There are white pines on the east side, and oaks on the west.

Hey, Christopher.

You've received so many replies that I'm not sure I can add a lot except, reading through the responses, I don't think I saw a reference to the one tip that can be super helpful even when there's adequate space for own-root spreaders. You might have done the following for years, but in case not, use any of the following info if or as you need it.

MysteryRose's General Rose Bully Tip:
I've found that many gallicas and other classes have canes that look almost identical at various stages (or always). I'd recommend spacing the plants far enough apart to keep them delineated. Then stay on top of the suckering during BLOOM TIME, the time when you can positively ID the canes that are sneaking up a foot (or much, much more) from the mother plant, smack in the middle of another variety--usually one that was very expensive to ship across the country, special ordered and rooted just for you, or long-awaited and lusted after. Otherwise, after you blink, you'll suddenly realize that 3/4 of the bed is Charles and your precious variety has been reduced to a single cane waving frantically in the sea of creeping stolons.

I sharpen my shovel for stolon slicing. I hope I never hit my foot, but I take precautions. I don't gallica (or Indigo) garden without boots and heavy gloves. I also have an ancient, beater pruning saw that I use when it's more convenient, I'm afraid of damaging the parent plant, or I just can't tell where the heck that volunteer came from but I sure as heck know where it is. Sometimes my gallica (and Portland damask) beds become stoloniferous super highway spaghetti bowls.

FYI: my Botzaris doesn't sucker like crazy...just a pop-up here and there near the plant. (Knock on wood.)

Hope this reply helps. You have a wonderful garden space. I'm so excited for your new project! Please give Sammy a little head scratch for me.

Mad Gallica--WOW! Ooo, ahhh, pretty, pretty, wow!

:-)
Carol

Well, it was tough to hear, but I'm taking your sage advice. I went out to the yard after work tonight and took another look at the pots. What I thought at first was 'Nouveau Monde' suckering in its pot was actually 'Georges Vibert'. Based on the info shared here, I'm going to take a chance and use 'Botzaris', 'Nouveau Monde', 'Duchesse d'Angouleme' and 'Duchesse de Montebello' somewhere else.

That leaves me with six for these two beds -- three in each. It's a bit tighter than you recommended, Mad Gallica, but it will still allow me to do light-dark-light-dark-light in each. In the bed pictured in this thread, my tentative plan, from left (the garage) to right (the pine) will be:

"Secret Garden Musk Climber"
'Charles de Mills'
'Georges Vibert'
'Cardinal de Richelieu'
"Darlow's Enigma"

In the other bed (not pictured here), from left (against the house) to right (by the garage) will be:

'Rosa moschata' single
"Sissinghurst Castle"
'Tricolore de Flandre'
'Tuscany Superb'
'Reverend Seidel'

If things in the shorter bed seem too tight when I put the pots down and measure out the space between them, I'll put the two musks elsewhere.

Now I have to get more mulch to keep going with bed prep.

:-)

~Christopher