I think the truth is somewhere in between, but I lean towards your position strongly. The reason is, I had aquariums for years, with lots of fish, and somewhat limited filtration (although I did have it). I used subgravel filters in combination with moving water. The water got very "mulmy" but the fish did not tend to die or suffer too much. In an outdoor pond, a few fish may cause the water to move, and outdoor rains (such as in our area) ensure fresh water supplies somewhat regularly. Rain and wind here would also increase water movement on the surface of the pond, and enhance water circulation. This may be sufficient to process the fish wastes, if there are a limited number of fish. I certainly would not recommend filling the bottom of a liner pond with dirt or gravel! Nor did George suggest that (in his defense). I do believe that fish can smell--otherwise why would there be sprays to apply to fish bait? So I sure don't want to make their lives miserable with bacterial stink! I would rather err on the side of the fish! Since they can't speak for themselves, I should think health and happiness would be their wish? I could run a small stream of water out of a hose from our well, and also provide an exit on one side of the pond. This may be all that I need. I may experiment. But my master plan is to have a pump running water to a waterfalls, after exitting a filter barrel. :) Randy

I'm sure you are going to laugh at me but what is vacuum tubes and what do they do for heating? Not to chance the subject but i was on another forum and they were talking at cheap seed starting heat mat. Most of them were taking Xmas rope lights (indoor/outdoor use)and putting them into sand ( just enough to cover them) and then setting the flats with potting mix and seeds on top of the sand. This was to help heat the soil the seeds were in. Theses light were to help maintain 70-80 degree needed to germinate seed. What i want to know is can these rope light really put out that much heat? They just seem so small and inefficient to me. and maybe this is a down right stupid thing to be think but if those rope lights work like they say. why couldn't i used them in my raised bed (like the soil cables). I'm only going to primely use the raised bed to start seeds in because i can't grow in them in the winter. Does my thought seem WAY out of this world or is it workable. East

Mike, in my post I said I did not use my lights to 'grow' plants, I said I use them to provide 'short night' response in my photoperiodic plants to postpone their bloom times. For that, I don't need 2K foot candles, I need 20 foot candles. For the purposes of determining the quantity of light your plant is actually getting you can't just spit out the wattage or lumen rating output of a bulb as rated on its package. For instance, a hundred watt, unshielded incandescent bulb, ten foot away from an object will only provide about 1.5 foot candles as measured at that objects surface. That isn't much, is it? So, you can't just say a lamp has X lumens and have that mean much of anything. That's the potential output of the bulb. What you are interested in are the readings at leaf level, measured in lux or light density and that is going to vary greatly depending on how far away the light source is, what design the reflectors are, angles, intensity at various points of the cone of the beam. Yadayadayada. And if you think you are actually doing much trying to supplement the natural light by hanging a few shop lamps from an overhead beam in a greenhouse with a flourescent tube in them............well, it's not going to hurt anything, but it probably has negligible actual benefit to the plant. So, if you are really needing to provide lighting by which a plant will actually grow.........then your supplemental growing light has to be quite close to the plant, or the output has to be considerably higher than you think if mounted from overhead beams. The only way to really tell is to meter it out at various points in a greenhouse. That's why I suggested the poster find out what intensity of illumination leafy veggies really take. If she/he can make do with natural light, it would save a lot of money, and I suspect they'll grow just fine without supplementation. That's why in all but special circumstances where high light levels are absolutely necessary for producing certain plants in a winter setting, most growers do not go the expense of installing supplemental lighting. It's expensive to install and it's expensive to run, unless you are just interested in starting a few seedlings or a very limited collection of conservatory plants.

Catkim, this will be our 6th water feature on our property, so I know about the wildlife attraction for sure. In fact, our very large fountain that sits in a small pool got toppled a couple of years ago. The only animal that could have done that was a very large racoon. Mind you, this fountain stands about 8' tall. The top 3 tiers were toppled over one morning. Nothing else would have had the dexterity to climb a slippery, wet, HUGE fountain. Not sure what attracted him to the top of the fountain, and why he didn't just stay in the large pool the fountain sits in. I did find a solar pump on Overstock.com. Unfortunately, the kit came with a different battery than described, plus, the battery is not holding a charge despite having the panel in full sun for many days. Overstock is sending me a new kit, and states that the correct battery is in that kit, so hoping it will work. The pump is just barely strong enough to make the water gurgle over the top of the pump. We have the pump sitting in the fountain basin below the pot, and we have it set to 1/2 rate, so we can boost the pump and that should increase the flow rate. But, we were trying to conserve energy, so I'm hoping with the new kit, the new battery will work better. We might also try to use the new solar panel, too. Not sure what isn't working - the panel or the battery - but we'll try swapping one one, then the other, and see if we can make it work. Patty S.