Well i'm probably overdoing it. I shook the bottle 2-3 times a day and opened it up to get fresh air in. I'll try another batch with less air and less shaking. I'm thinking this batch has gone sour! It reeks big time and the plant I watered with it smelled for at least two days.

The shaking is not a problem. Shake as many times as you want.
Put , say, 2 tbsp per 1 liter of water (in 1 liter bottle).
After 2 days you will have white kvas. If you want to drink it, it may be enchanced: add 1 teaspoon of sugar, close, wait 1 day more and then put in refrigirator. It will be probably the thing you call sourdough soda. This thing will have a lot of gas CO2. It is made by yeasts from sugar. If no sugar then no gases.

Well i'm probably overdoing it. I shook the bottle 2-3 times a day and opened it up to get fresh air in. I'll try another batch with less air and less shaking. I'm thinking this batch has gone sour! It reeks big time and the plant I watered with it smelled for at least two days.

While I cannot vouch for any benefit from KVAS at this point I can tell you I made it (attempted to make it) a few times and it's only after I added a lot of flour to the water and kept it sealed that I didn't end up with a foul smelling, milk jug bulging concoction.

My current batch has been sitting undisturbed for around a month in the closet. It has an odor, but not the foul kind you noticed and it isn't threatening to explode the milk jug in the closet ;)

I am not sure it's possible to add too much flour so err on the side of too much rather than too little.

Well, it is possible to make kvas a little bit other way in two steps.
First make sour dough. It's very easy: mix rye (and any other flour) with a little amount of water just for the mixture to be liquid and let it stay few days, usually 2 days. Then, secondly, add sour dough to water and let it sit 1-2 days more. The result will be the same but this method is more reliable. Sour dough can be kept an unlimited time. Some sour dough bread makers say that they use sour dough of 40 years old as a starter for their dough in making bread.

Well my second batch turned out fine. I think I was introducing too much fresh air. I was opening the bottle at least once a day to let it breathe and then shaking it up a ton. I've just let it be now and its a tan milky substance with a light sour odor. Its a bit fizzy when shaken but not as sour as the first batch.

It did not help with the fungus gnat situation. Nothing has helped with the fungus gnat problem. I'm about to go nuclear on them.

Wait a little, they must fly out. Water a soil with kvas regularly.

There have been many postings here on GW from those who have eliminated fungus gnats by sprinkling cinnamon over the soil surface. Give it a try.

One of the poster on russian garden website have reported today that she eliminated gnats in her vermicomposting system by sprinkling kvas (very diluted, aprox. 1:50) over the soil surface.
I have no one gnut since I began to use kvas for watering plants.

So if one is raising crops to eat, how much of this 'kvas' is needed as fertilizer? A gallon might produce how many pounds of potatoes, for example? In sandy, poor soil? In rich loam?

A couple pounds of rye flour (or maybe a hundred square feet of garden space given to rye) could make hundreds of gallons of kvas and maybe produce a year's worth of food for a person?

I don't know.
I consider it as a toy for the present moment.
I await greener plants from it and a tool against pests.
And a tool for fermenting weeds to gain fermented plant extract (FPE) instead of throwing them away.

Why would anyone throw weeds away? In organic culture, weeds are either left to lay on the ground or incorporated into compost.

Why would anyone throw weeds away? In organic culture, weeds are either left to lay on the ground or incorporated into compost

Yes, it's well known thing.
But really in both ways you mentioned the nitrogen from weeds is lost (thrown) into atmosphere. FPE is a way not to loose it.

I see. FPE uses micro-organisms that do not produce so much atmospheric nitrogen?

Yes.

I see. FPE uses micro-organisms that do not produce so much atmospheric nitrogen?

Yes.

I have just started a batch and will give it a shot. I still haven't decided what the experiment will be but all my spring vegetables will be transplanted into the garden this weekend so there will be many opportunities to try different things!

I will post results.

Fascinating thread btw!!

Valerie, as promised I have been experimenting with your rye flour concoctions using it on one-half of the vegetables I am growing from seed under lights. Same set up I have used for 50 years. Seedlings are now six weeks old and I can see no difference in growth, color, height between the treated and non-treated ones. Will be interested in the experiments and observations of others.

Nandina, thank you for posting.
As for seeds, I know that FRF can increase germination of seeds. It's not your situation if your seeds are of high quality. And FRF advantage is antioxidants that are essential during high photosynthetic activity.
Wait a little an keep us in news.

I did seedling growth experiment as well.
I actually see the difference in growth of my tomato seedlings. Maybe because my starting mix is mainly home made compost and kvas brought flora to digest this compost faster.
Nandina, what is your starting mix and what you are using for feeding seedlings?

Since seedlings are delicate thing it is very important to be accurate with concentrations.

I highly recommend this web-side in the provided link below to define concentrations of kvas for seeds innoculation and seedlings watering in order to escape errors.

Microbial population of kvas is 60% lactobacteria and 30% yeasts. It's exactly according to numerous researches of microbiology of kvas. Phototrophic bacteria as in EM-1 are under the question, but it is possible. I know one recipe of kvas that I think has phototrophic bacteria. I' ll tell about it later.

So, kvas has 90% of what is in EM-1.
And I think also that main "working horses" in EM-1 are lactobacteria and yeasts, and phototrophic bacteria play a supportive role in EM-1 for longer shelf-life.

What is important, kvas (and activated EM-1) deteriorate with time, nevertheless. It means that aceto - bacteria appear and with time kvas becomes more acidic with aceto-acid also known as vinegar. Thus it's important to keep kvas in cold place and no longer than 30-45 days while lacto-bacteria are still great in numbers. It's better to use fresh kvas when they are mostly active. It's not a problem because kvas can be made quickly and easily when it's needed.

How long time Nandina kept her FRF?

Valerie, I am raising my seedlings in my homemade compost. Have been making EM/kvas weekly, letting it sit for 48 hours before using. I do not see a difference between the treated and untreated plants. However, another idea I have been trialing using kvas shows promise. More on that later as the growing season progresses.

I finally transplanted everything out to the garden and will be doing the experiment with some leftover eggplant and tomatillo seedlings. I will be spraying Kvas and using it as a soil drench once a week(?) on 2 out of 3 eggplants and on 1 of 2 tomatillos. I know it's not a big sample, but I'd rather start on something small to see if it makes a difference and/or if it possibly does harm. All the seedlings are healthy, about the same height, and are planted in the same bed so the only difference will be some receiving Kvas.

Valerie, is it ok to dilute it less than 5x? Say, 1:1 or 2:1?

Also, I've been using compost tea with great results in the past....can I continue to use it on these plants or should I stop for the sake of the experiment?

I used undiluted Kvas and it had no negative impact.
Nevertheless, I think that not too many benefits too.
I would start with the ratio 1:10 in the garden for watering and 1:20 - 1:100 for sprinkling. Up to you.

Compost tea? IMO, compost tea (both aerobic and anaerobic) is a nonsense in the gardenig.

Power of Kvas is a power of antioxidants first of all.
And the power of enzymes.
This two "chemicals" are absolutely out of range of conventional gardening based on chemical fertilizers and pesticides.
Kvas can be compared with juices and "vitamins" that we eat. They have little nutrition value but vital for our life. As like different "tonics" it's better to use kvas not to much at once but more often.
Nevertheless, kvas also has amino-acids, wich can be sucked by plants directly through the roots and leaves of plants as well. Amino-acids also stimulate the growth of mycorhisae fungus. And kvas also has polsaccharides that help to aggregate soil particles.
Antioxidants in kvas enhace antioxidant system of plants and thus make photosynthesis more vigorous. Plants will be greener. Plants need small amounts of antioxidants but regularly.
Antioxidants in Kvas block insect's receptors and they fly out. At the same time enzymes in Kvas dissolve intestines of other pests and they die. What is interesting, earthworms and spiders like kvas very much and thrive.
I know one spider (in the corner of my smoking room) who spined a large web ofter sprinkling him with kvas.

If enumerate the benefits of kvas, it could be a list of one page long, at least.
So, the rule - use kvas less concentrated but more often.
Possible concentrations: 1:0, 1:10, 1:100, 1:500, 1:1000, 1:10000 (for ponds). 1:100 - 1:500 is mostly suitable to apply directly on plants. 1:10 for making bokashi (instead of compost). 1:0 for drinking.

Recipe for drinking:
1) Make kvas.
2) Add sugar (or something sweet) in ratio 1 tablespoon per litre. Add skin of citric fruit: orange, lemmon or mandarine. Keep 2-3 days in sunny or warm place.
3) Put in refrigerator.
Excelent drinking in sunny day. But it's mechanism is the same as for plants: antioxidants. Ultraviolet rays in sun's light make a storm of oxidants in our body. That's why we feel ourselves badly in summer. We can revert situation drinking antioxidants. Kvas is mostly cheap.

Why do you say that compost tea is nonsense? I'm genuinely interested because I realize there is a lot of hype out there about it right now that is probably not justified. I also understand that there are many more variables that are not possible to study or control by the average gardener (type of compost, ingredients, type of bacteria and fungi etc) and that it doesn't do all that people claim it to do but how do you explain the anecdotal evidence of numerous gardeners including myself?

Let's take aerobic compost tea ACT.
First, microbial population of compost is shocked by exposure to excess of oxygen and then, second, is put into anaerobic environment - in soil. Shock again. Nonsense.

Bacterial population of ACT is said to be good, "diversity of life". Realy, they are very active. So active that as a fire burn organic matter of the soil and it goes from soil into armosphere. They left oxidants (free radicals) in soil and then die after the "eating". Nonsense.

And so on.

There are no proved impressive results from using Compost Teas. Both CT and ACT. And there are a lot of signs of pseudoscience and cheating. It's enough for me not to use it.

Those who use ACT add molasses there "to help microbes multiply". I made ACT with molasses, but molasses even don't decompose there what is seen by sparkles on the leaves of plants left there after sprinkling them with ACT.

Let's take Kvas, on contrary. Each molecule of glucose decompose into 2 molecules of lactic acid. And it decomposes completely, that is all molasses is decomposed to lactic acid. Really, it's the cheapest way to get lactic acid. Lactic acid in soil kill pathogens and thus open the way for probiotic microorganismes which are supressed by pathogenic microbes. Probiotic microorganismes then born more kinds of other probiotic microorganises and so on. So, lactic acid in soil start a long chain of healthy changes in microbial population of the soil. This is called regeneration.

Hi Valerie,
Do you have any idea if this recipe will help with control of black spot on roses and squash beetles? i am excited to try this.
Thanks,
Vicki

Hi Vicki,

This recipe must help with control of vast majority of pests.
The modified recipe is better:
Take 4 tablespoons of rye flour and 1 tablespoon of sugar (or 2 tablespoons of molasses). Add water to make the mixture just liquid, maybe 1 cup. After 24 hours it will have sour smell and "arise" (increase in volume). It is called sour dough. Then dilute it in 1 gallon of water and continue fermentation 1 day more.
The resulting "beverage" is acidic. Add 1 tablespoon (or teaspoon) of red (or black) pepper and/or 1 clove of garlic and/or aloe and continue fermentation 1 day more.
Then use it for sprinkling pests in dilution 1:20, 1:100 or even 1:500 and 1:1000. Repeate again if infestation has not stopped.

To enforce it is possible to add 1/2 cup of vodka and 1/2 cup of vinegar in the end of fermentation (after pepper and garlic have been fermented). Then keep in refrigerator closed (without oxygen).

Main reason why it works is antioxidants. Pepper, garlic and aloe are known for their high amount of antioxidants. If you know something else then add it too.

It may seems strange but what is concidered as "pests" don't like antioxidants and "beneficials" like them. It seems to be true. I tried it. Flies and gnuts don't like it exactly but earthworms and spiders love it very much. I don't know why.

I also use it (without pepper and garlic) in bathroom to control fungus (moulds). Works great! They stopped. Now I sprinkle just once a weaks. May be once in a month is enough too.

This thread is very interesting indeed. Does anyone know how it will work in controlling slugs? They are my biggest headache as I live in the very wet/gray Pacific Northwest.

Sure, I can hunt for and drown them individually in soapy water at dusk or dawn but really --- how much better to spray away, helping the plants and killing or repelling the slugs. All without harming earthworms).

Any thoughts anyone?

What about preventing bugs?
Last year we had problem with spotted wing drosophilla, tiny fly that lay eggs in rippen berries.
Valerie, do you think or know if smell of kvas with pepper/garlic and so on can be repellent or it's just contact killer?

I think that neither repellent nor contact killer.
I think that aloe (no smell, no pungent) give the same result as pepper and garlic just because of antioxidants.
Antioxidants block receptors of pests. It's the same as to close eyes to dog with bandage. Nevertheless, I knew one dog who was blid but could walk with much certainty and very far just orienting by smell. In this sense "nose" of pests is more important then their eyes. Without ability to smell they are absolutely disoriented.
Flies fly out just by sprinkling the air with pure kvas, though it almost has no smell and pungent (as pepper) either.
I think that using antioxidants against pests is a key to handle them without chemicals.

Nice side of the kvas is that almost everything "sweet" can be added there and it will give more kvas.
Kvas "dissolve" almost any plant.
What can be added?
1. Molasses (and sugar but not too much)
2. Herbs
3. Weeds
4. Banana, apple, cucumber, orange and other peels from kitchen.
5. Rotten fruits and berries.
6. Beet is cheep and fine (sugar beet is even better).

It's a good idea to have barrel in the garden and put weeds there. Then use FPE (fermented plant extract) for sprinkling and watering plants. So, the more weeds the better.

This sounds a little bit strange for me.
Usually vinegar flies (and spotted wings drosophilla is a relative of them) will fly to traps made with apple cider and banana.

Once I found little white worms living in full ground pepper powder. Don't use pepper against of them. 100%

Activated EM-1 (fermented molasses) definitly has more or less molasses and more or less vinegar. Nevertheless it is used in banana plantations with great success. No reports about vinegar flies's infestation. Though it would reasonable to suppose them. Perhaps, there is an explanation for this, I don't know. I would try it and check it without explanation. If it works, what for explanations to me?

To Valerie: Observations/trials to date on this subject. My winter climate allows growing the cole, chard, winter annuals such as pansies plus numerous hardy herbs. I grow lots of these organically in large containers all winter. This has allowed me to monitor my experiments carefully.

Over the past months I have mixed up numerous variations of your rye flour/sugar formula. Cutting to the bottom line...I have found the best one to be 6 tablespoons of rye flour, 2 tablespoons of unsulphured molasses to one gallon of water, capped, allowed to sit on counter for 3 days, shaken often, used immediately. For some reason using dried molassess did not give the same result as the liquid form.

Are you sitting down, Valerie? I have been using the above formula, full strength, not diluted, every other week with interesting results; healthy container plants which are glossy, taller and denser than normal and the veggies are very tasty. As the weather has warmed (90 degrees here all this week) I have been watching closely for problems developing in the heat. So far none. Time will tell. As my vegetable seeds have been sprouting I am treating one half of them with the full strength formula. The emerging treated seedlings are more vigorous.

So, this is my report to date. Some reading this may want to experiment in a limited way until we can experiment with using the formula full strength during a full growing season.

BTW, I am having difficulty with your premise that antioxidants discourage insects and their resulting damage. At the moment I do not have any bug problems to play around with the idea. But, I would guess that we have some readers who will test this idea on their gardens and animal barns this summer. Green tea is also an antioxidant. Wonder what would happen if three green tea bags were steeped in 2 cups of warm water for an hour and then this sprayed full strength on the potato bugs or whatever. Worth a try along with the rye flour trials.

Nandina, have you been using it as a foliar spray as well as a soil drench? Are you using a clear plastic container?

My experiment is going on 3 weeks right now with inconclusive results. I will try your formula with some other plants.

Nanadina, thank you very much for your report.
Great job!
So your formula is:

6 tbsp rye flour + 2 tbsp molasses + 1 gallon water, sit 3 days.

Yes, it seems to be the golden mean. Less than 4 tbsp rye flour may spoil, 8 is too much (not economical), 6 is best!
It is possible to pour out the liquid in separate container to separate from sediment. Without airspace in the top and under the tap it may be kept long time, some months. Sediment may be used for next batch as starter to make fermentation faster. When I use sediment from previous batch I make sometimes fermentation during 1 day.

It is also possible to add molasses after fermentation again in the same amount and during 1-3 days it doubles the amount of bacteria. Then it is possible add molasses again. And again. And again. But this is details.

Well, good news!

As for antioxidants, if green tea has antioxidants in it then its good idea to try it against pests. If it works then its more good idea do dissolve (ferment) green tea bags (or tea leaves) in kvas. It will give more antioxidants. It's just for making experiments. Tea is not cheap and thus not practical. Ordinary weeds works the same.

Hope this topic will continue.

Nanadina, I am sure this website will be interesting to you. The world of fermentation is amazing!
On this page some info on juices and tea fermentation and antioxidants.
Fermented beverages can be used for direct cosumption as probiotic and in the garden also to get mor fruit and berries and to ferment them again :-)
Many things such as banana peels can be fermented instead of throwing them into compost.
I consider the fermentation as a tool Number 1 in the gardening.

Nandina,
Can you give more details about your experiments?

How much of not diluted kvas have you used per container (please include size of container)?
Did you use some other fertilizer?
What kind of mix do you use in your containers?
Any other details?
Thank you

To kingkongos: Yes, I am using one gallon plastic milk jugs to brew my teas. No, to date I have used my full strength formula only as a soil drench, 2 cups to each container every other week. I plan to experiment using the formula as a foliar spray approaching it with caution and diluting the formula 50% with water and adding an organic sticker, observing results carefully. My concern here is that basically the fermented combination of rye flour and molasses is basically an alchol and I do not know presently how tender foliage will react to this in the heat of summer. More experimenting to do.

Valerie, thanks for the web site. You have given us a lot of ideas to trial this summer.

Just a note.

People often connect fermentation with alcohol.
But not all fermentations are alcoholic.
There are many kinds of non-alcoholic fermentations. They are done mainly by lacto bacteria but sometimes by bacillus subtillis or/and by some kinds of fermenting fungus which don't make alcohol. Japanees' Miso is an example of it.

Kvas is a non-alcoholic beverage.

Valerie,
I want to experiement by using this recipe on plants for growth and insect control and not treat some plants at all. What would be your recommendation?
Thanks,
Vicki

Nandina,

Now that you've added molasses, does the color change after 3 days? I've started a batch of your recipe and it's obviously brown. The kvass I've been making without molasses turns milky white like Valerie said it would. What should I be looking for and smelling for when it's ready (and also to make sure I've done nothing wrong)?

Kvas have to have sour smell. If not, add molasses 2 tbsp per gallon and continue fermentation 2 days. The more it stands the more it's acidic. One of the benefit, it may smell as you want depending what you add. If add citrus peels it smells citrus, if any herbs it smells herbs (if roses' flowers it smells roses' flowers). It can be very aromatic and pleasant. Color is not so important untill you want add kvas to do laundry.

Vicky, what recomendatins?
Water and sprinkle. It's all recomendations.
When kvas stands long time it becomes more acidic. So, dilute it more in water. Fresh kvas is better for watering, old for sprinkling (after dilution). For watering just add to water. This also can help with pests (such as aphids) because plants suck antioxidants through roots. Antioxidants repel pests, improove immune system of plants and enhance photosynthesis by killing oxidants (such as super dioxide - a byproduct of plant's photosynthesis).

I made an experiment with other grains' flours.
I made flour from grains by milling in coffee grinder.
Grains:
1) Rice
2) Buckwheat
3) Barley
4) Kidney bean
5) Pea
For each grain I used 1 tbsp of its flour per 1/2 litre of water.
After 2 days:
All grains are good instead of rye.
Pea is good but has strong smell of pea, not too pleasant.
Kidney bean is the best. It has a smell of yogurt.
Then - barley, buckwheat,rice.

Valerie, did you add molasses or just flour and water?