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lwowk

new crosses and predicting new bloom traits...

lwowk
15 years ago

I am hoping that someone familiar with crossing two different plants may be able to help me in getting an idea of what the flowers on a new cross may look like in terms of shape and color.

I was looking at some flasks on ebay of the following cross Ctna. Why Not X Enc. plicata the seller has told me that enc plicata is know to be resessive. what does that mean in terms of the final results? is there any way at all to take an educated guess as to what may be passed on to the new flowers?

Larissa

Comments (14)

  • mehitabel
    15 years ago

    Hi, Larissa. "Recessive", when it refers to hereditary traits, means that it will not be expressed (ie show up in the offspring) as long as another, "dominant" characteristic is present.

    Another way of saying this is that the recessive trait won't be expressed unless it is received from both parents. ie the offspring won't look like E plicata unless two E plicata are crossed.

    For example, in humans, blue eyes are a recessive trait, and will be expressed only when there are two genes for blue eyes present (ie one blue eye gene from each parent). When a recessive blue is paired with a dominant brown-eyed gene, the eyes will be brown, even tho a (single, recessive) blue-eyed gene is present in the brown eyed offspring who can pass the recessive gene on to app half the offspring.

    This is why some rarish genetic diseases show up only when both parents carry the gene for it-- it's a recessive, and the normal gene from the other parent keeps it from be expressed.

    In your cross, if enc plicata tends to be "recessive", I would take that to mean that your cross will look and probably grow more like the Ctna Why Not. Your cross will inherit the genes from Enc plicata, but they will not be "expressed".

    It's fair to ask the vendor what the breeder expects the cross to look and act like *on average* if you want more information. The results show up as probabilities, so an individual plant might be different, but most of the offspring are expected to be "such as such".

    Hope this helps.

  • lwowk
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Mehitabel- Thanks for the info. The grower seems to have no ideas as to what to expect. So I'm wondering is the Enc. Plicata has any dominant genes or even resessive genes in common with the Ctna Why Not to make this cross even worth makeing. If all you get is an orchid very simmilar to the Ctna Why Not then perhaps a self crossing should have been done instead...? Hmm. Now if these flasklings were someday self or sibling crossed that might have interesting results. But do I personally want to wait 10-14 years to see those blooms? I'm having a hard time waiting for my psychopsis to finally bloom! :) LOL

    Larissa

  • mehitabel
    15 years ago

    Hey, I'm with you on this one,Larissa. Doesn't sound like it can be much of an improvement over the Why Not.

    Actually, the breeder often has an outcome 5 or 10 generations removed from what he's doing now in mind. That particular Ctna x enc cross may be only a step on the way to something else. In the meantime, by selling some of the progeny (there could be thousands), he can support himself while the next step cross is being made.

    eg the first cross might be made to introduce a color, then later crosses to perfect the shape, increase the size of the flower, etc etc. A lot of the early crosses aren't that much to look at, you're right. :)

    Also, all breeders aren't gifted at it, and all of them have to use whatever they have as stud plants. So some breeders can't or don't produce quality outcomes in large numbers. But they all have to sell off large numbers of the offspring at some point. So lots of unnamed crosses aren't that great.

    And you're also right, a selfing would produce interesting results-- small percentages of offspring very different from the others.

    I'm usually happier with the outcome when I buy a named and selected clone, or if a cross, buy it from a breeder with lots of "AQ's" under his belt. AQ is an "Award of Quality" awarded not to a particular plant, but to the breeder of the cross for producing a "quality" outcome-- an inspired cross. To get it he has to have 10-12 outstanding exemplars of the cross.

    I really respect the guys that get those AQs-- lot of knowledge and work to get just one, never mind dozens.

    More than you wanted to know ;)

  • lwowk
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    LOL would be more than I wanted to know for any other topic but not for orchids. ;)

    Larissa

  • cjwatson
    15 years ago

    Encyclia plicata has a lot of flowers on a longish spike. Perhaps it will increase the flower count. Also, plicata is wonderfully fragrant, which may also show up in its progeny.

    When it comes to passing on traits with crosses other than yours, as examples off the top of my head, Cattleya aurantiaca is dominant for its lip, as is Brassavola nodosa. The nodosa also is dominant for spots. Encyclia tampense v. alba used in many hybrids is color neutral, meaning that its progeny will generally carry the color of the other parent.

    Not being into the complicated world of orchid hybridization, that's all I can remember right now. But there are lots and lots of dominent and recessive traits that breeders use to their advantage ... most of the time. Sometimes, the best planned orchid cross blooms out to be a real dog.

  • arthurm
    15 years ago

    Just to add to the above great info. If you go to the Hybrid register there are quite a few registered crosses with Enc. plicata as a parent but not with Ctna. Why Not.

    As for how the babies will turn out that is a lottery. But you never know. especially seeing that Why Not has a Cattleya and a Boughtonia as a parent.

    I have at least a hundred babies of Tolumnia Tom Wilson x Zelemnia Liz to flower. How will they turn out? I do not know, but the breeder selected my Plant of Tom Wilson for its shape and colour. Apart from that, it's a fingers crossed job. As Carol says "i might have a hundred dogs"

    I handed out 40 plants of Epi Bees' Knees x Encyclia tampense var. alba to members of our local orchid society for an orchid growing competition and am looking forward to see them flower.

  • AMYQofU
    15 years ago

    I have always wanted to know more about this topic. Thanks, everyone. I hope people who are knowledgeable will continue to chime in.

  • wetfeet101b
    15 years ago

    Interesting topic, I had a similar question but I guess you beat me to it :)

    I would like to add that it is not the entire plant that is considered dominant or recessive. Rather, it is each individual quality of the plant that is controlled by its genetic make up.
    Color, shape, plant size, etc, each have a set of controller genes that determine the plant's characteristics.
    When crossing plants, the parent's controller genes will line up and the "fight for dominance" begins. :)
    With seed crosses, each one of the thousands of seeds could potentially have a unique outcome of this fight for dominance.
    In one offspring, parent A's petal size could have dominated. But in another offspring, it could have been parent B's petal size that won.
    It is the breeder's hope that among these thousands of unique combinations, there will be at least one that stands out that they can consider as the final stage of breeding, or continue to use that in further crosses.

    Going with what Arthurm and cjwatson have stated that Enc. plicata appears to have been used in multiple crosses already, it indicates that the breeders are trying to get something desirable from this plant. Maybe they want it to contribute its flower count, or perhaps the shape of the inflorescence.

    I dont think there is any way of identifying orchids and indicate what traits they will impart on a cross with any level of certainty. Rather, we can only hope that it imparts the traits that we are looking for on some of the offspring - and discard the rest.
    We cannot say that "If orchid X is crossed with orchid Y, then parent X will always impart its color and flower size to the offspring". Given the genetic rock-paper-scissors situation, this might only be true part of the time.

  • lwowk
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Thanks everyone for your input. I do realize that it is not possible to know exactly what the flower will look like. I had hoped that the breeder could state what kind of flower he was aiming for, however, he did not seem to know...So in this thread I was hoping that perhaps others familiar with this topic might have an idea of which traits might be considered dominant or resessive in each flower in order to be able to take a somewhat educated guess.

    Larissa

  • cjwatson
    15 years ago

    Just sit back and enjoy the suspense, Larissa. For myself, I don't think there is anything more exciting in orchid growing than a first-bloom bud opening on a speculative hybrid cross.

    Anticipation!!!

  • jodik_gw
    15 years ago

    The bottom line in breeding anything, whether it be flora or fauna, is that we can manipulate Mother Nature to some extent, but we'll never be able to control her... so, what is expected from a particular breeding may, or may not, come to pass.

    However, with today's technology, and an eye for what constitutes the finest of what we're breeding, we can make a pretty fair guess at what the end results may be. Even so, Mother Nature can throw a monkey wrench into the mix, and the results can be quite startling, to say the least.

    The cross may give you exactly what you'd expect... or, it could give you a complete surprise! I agree with the above post... I think it would be exciting to anticipate, and then finally, to see the results in front of you!

  • paul_
    15 years ago

    To further complicate matters, not all traits show simple dominance. In other words, not every trait is determined by only one gene pair (one gene from each parent). Some traits are actually the result of the interaction of several different gene pairs. Under these circumstances, the dominance/recessive "war" becomes far more complicated with a greater range of variations becoming possible.

    Then toss in the possibility of mutations -- which are not necessarily all that uncommon -- and you have the chance of further diversity.

    Have you taken a peek at both parents? That might help you decide if you want to take the chance on getting a flask. You might, after all, get lucky -- or not

    :)

  • jodik_gw
    15 years ago

    As a canine breeder, I know that a lot more can be discerned about prospective offspring by looking at the grandparents, other relatives, and the siblings from other litters of the same two parents. Looking at the parents of a pup tells me nothing I don't already know. "Parents On Premises" in ads always makes me shake my head, knowing from just those three words that the breeders are, in fact, not knowledgeable breeders, at all!

    I'm not sure it works exactly the same for orchids, having never bred any, but I think that if I liked the look of both parents, I might do a little research into their history to see if I could find photos or information regarding other relatives of those two.

    On the other hand, if the flask is inexpensive, and you just want the result to be pretty orchids, all that really wouldn't matter... just have fun with it, and consider the results to be future surprises!

  • orchidflowerchild
    15 years ago

    Jodik is correct in the suggestion of looking into the ancestry and similar crosses. WHile the genetics of orchids can be very complex, in the hybridizing game, many things are sortof worked out by trial-and-error, but if you have a mind to the history, you can look at breeding patterns with particular parents. Some breeding is entirely speculative, but you can look at crosses with similar backrounds and come to have a reasonable understanding of how things breed. Of course, if you know *specific* parents used, you can even more directly understand the potential for inheritance. C. Horace 'Maxima', for example, is well known for producing a telltale splash in the lips of it's progeny.
    -Cj

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