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theutahn

My utter failure in organic lawn care

theutahn
17 years ago

I cross posted this in the 'lawn care forum'; but I'm not sure how many of you read both forums??? Hopefully it's PC to post in both.

I'm hoping someone can offer me some constructive advice or a word of encouragement before I go dump 300# of chemicals on my lawn. I'm about as frustrated as I could possibly with this program!

Last spring I decided to go to an all organic lawn and garden system; no chemicals at all. I overseeded in the spring with a tall fescue drought resistant mix, have fertilized with soybean meal and molasses 2x, sprayed compost tea on the lawn twice, mow my lawn at the highest setting on the mower, and water every 6-7 days deeply (although I had to go to every 4 days when it was 100+ outside).

The problem? Friggin weeds EVERYWHERE. I spend at least 40 minutes a week weeding the lawn of dandelions. I have no less than 100 patches of crabgrass infesting the lawn (and it seems to spread by the day). I've got some sort of fast growing 'tall' grass growing all over the lawn. And I've got these stringy weeds that send growths up throughout the lawn in many patches.

I really want to make this work; but I don't have 3-4 hours a week to weed the lawn on top of the 2 hours I already mow and trim.

Can anyone offer me any advice? I think I'm going to have to use a post-emergent herbicide, which will totally destroy the program I've worked so hard to maintain.

-Frustrated in SLC!

Comments (41)

  • pablo_nh
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, crabgrass is an anual, so you'd use a pre-emergent at the right time. Of course- I dunno anything about Utah.

    I watched a show where they asked the lawncare guys from famous football fields about establishing lawns. They all semmed to say- "don't worry about weeds the first year, get something growing, then deal with them later".

    I dunno about the best way to kill thye stuff organically- you'll hear about using strongish acetic acid on dandelions.

  • jennyandretti
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I, too, started an organic lawn "from scratch" three years ago. Did the overseeding, corn gluten, mow high and often, but have skipped the water part for conservation. To me, my lawn looks good. To my husband, it looks horrible. He envisions a lawn like a pro baseball field and I can't stand knowing that the "pretty" is just lawn drugs. The chemicals are really bad stuff! I don't want our family exposed to them or walking/playing on treated lawns either. Those chemicals also poison our water table and the manufacturing/shipping of them further hurts our environment. The American lawn standard is hurting us all by harming the earth and stressing us out trying to maintain it!! My husband just sighs when he looks over our grass, and occasional clover, dandelion, and chickweed. It's a no-brainer for me: switch to a new American standard of a mixed salad yard. Better for the planet, us, and less stress! Now if I could get the pro-guys on the program... :)

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  • farmerboybill
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Like Jenny said American homeowner has been duped into thinking he/she is a horrible human being if the lawn has anything but a perfect stand of Kentucky Blue in it and has to be mowed less than three times a week.

    I got a cold call from Truegreen Chemlawn and few months back asking what I do to maintain my lawn. Went about like this -

    "Hello Bill, this is Bob from Truegreen. I was wondering if you're familier with our services."

    "Sure"

    "Great! What sort of maintenance schedule do you have for your lawn?"

    "When it gets tall, I mow it."

    "Nothing else?"

    "Nope."

    "Hmm. Well, Bill, We would like to take the opportunity to come out and help you make your lawn the best it can be!"

    "I'm not terribly interested"

    "Don't you care about what your neighbors think about how you keep up your property?"

    Click

    Unbelieveable, eh?

  • momamamo
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Gardens Alive sells GREAT lawncare stuff. And way less work than what you've been doing. No wonder you're frustrated. Check out their website.

  • brendan_of_bonsai
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Raise your lawn mower up, longer blades of grass will shade the soil surface and prevent crabgrass from germinating, also, after a period of time the lawn will thicken slightly and this will help combat annual weeds aswell.

  • pablo_nh
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ya- good part of living in NH- neighbors really don't care what your lawn looks like in most places. My friends and family think I'm a bit eccentric (of course- few of them are exactly "normal", thankfully). I feed dandilions to my rabbits, so I don't eradicate them all.

    Whatever. It's green all over :)

  • althea_gw
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I had good luck using corn gluten meal to control annual weeds. It took a year and a half (3 applications - 2 spring and one late summer) for the results. CGM is discussed in the lawn care faq on this forum.

  • ericwi
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Last year I put in a retaining wall near the driveway, and had to re-seed a strip of dirt, about 20 feet by one foot. We have never seen any crabgrass in our lawn, but it began to show up in the strip of new grass about a month after re-seeding. I was able to weed it all out, since the area of lawn involved was so small. I suspect that the grass seed mixture had some crabgrass seed contamination.

  • theutahn
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for all the feedback everyone! I got some great advice here and in the other thread, so I'm gonna keep at it. Hopefully that'll help!

  • bemitom_juno_com
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Below are some lawn care ideas. I currently live in Utah again after living in another state for three years. I have gardened organically for many years and also used organic products on my lawn. I hope these ideas help. Unfortunately dandelions will always be with us no matter how we tend our lawns. Using chemicals just requires more chemicals so the lawn can get its "fix". Feeding and caring for the soil is the most important way to feed plants.

    Lawn Care

    Mowing

    Only mow when grass is dry.
    Mow after 6 p.m. lawn will be cooler then.
    It is best to mow the evening before sprinklers are scheduled to come on.
    Remove no more than 1/3 of the grass blade.
    Alternate mowing direction. For example: one week mow North to South, the next week mow East to West.
    Grass should be allowed to grow 2 - 3" in summer but can be cut to 1 ½-2" in fall (last mowing).
    Be sure mower blades are sharp.
    Leave clippings on the lawn. If the lawn is healthy and is mowed properly clippings should break down quickly. Clippings provide nitrogen for the lawn. Clippings do not contribute to thatch. Thatch is caused by improper lawn care and chemical fertilizers.

    Watering

    Water before 10 a.m. to avoid evaporation of water before it reaches the soil.
    Early morning watering is preferable to evening.
    Water 1-2" per week  measure sprinkler output by placing tuna cans in various places around the yard and measuring the amount of water during one cycle of the sprinklers. Multiply amount in can by number of cycles per watering day.
    Water no more than three times per week. Two is preferable. If you have a sprinkler system you may need to let it cycle two or three times each watering day. For sandy soils 3 times per week may be necessary.
    Avoid watering if there has been at least 1" of rain on or close to the normal watering day.
    If possible avoid watering on windy days.

    Weed and pest control

    Proper watering and mowing will take care of most insect, disease and weed problems.
    Do not mow blooming dandelions. The flowers will still go to seed.
    Pre-emergent (prevents germination of seeds): corn gluten meal sold under various brand names. From corn syrup processing, this product has been shown to prevent seed germination. It is safe and will also fertilize your lawn.
    For best control use in Fall and in Spring. Avoid using on newly seeded lawns.
    The best way to remove most remaining weeds is by digging.
    Chemical weed killers and fertilizers can damage soil structure and kill earthworms and soil organisms. This contributes to problems with lawn and soil health and can cause thatch problems.

    Fertilizing

    Corn gluten meal if there are any weed problems.
    Use organic fertilizers to improve lawn and soil health without harming soil organisms.
    Leave clippings on the lawn when possible - if clippings have been removed more nitrogen fertilizer will need to be applied.
    Kelp and fish emulsion sprayed on lawn every three to four weeks during the growing season provides macro and micro nutrients and helps the lawn to be drought resistant. Put some of each in a hose end sprayer and set to the highest concentration. I spray my lawn, garden, and entire yard.
    It is normal for Kentucky Blue Grass to look less green during hot weather.

    Aerating

    It is best to aerate clay soils once per year.
    Aerating in fall allows water and melting snow to penetrate better.
    After aerating, peat moss, coconut fiber, compost or composted manure can be spread and allowed to fill the holes and improve clay or sandy soils. A drop spreader may not work for spreading these items.

    Other

    Lawns on which chemicals fertilizers and pesticides have been used may require some recovery time before looking their best.

  • dchall_san_antonio
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    jennyandretti, has your husband gone down and looked closely at the grass in the outfield? It looks great on TV but I'll bet you it is a mix of grasses and "weeds." Take a look at the pictures in this link...Organic golf course in Canada

    That turf is 50% colonial bentgrass and 50% Dutch white clover. Yes, CLOVER! All he does is mow at the right height.

  • jennyandretti
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    dchall: Awesome organic golf course! I can bring my goat and not worry about it growing a third eye. : ) My husband is our high school's baseball coach and yes, the field is very drugged. He knows where I stand, but wouldn't think to anything different than the "pros" do. Changing the old guard is tough, but it can be done. He has convinced the grounds crew (two really dedicated dads and himself) to not kill the hornets nests with spray, but to just let the cold get them first before taking down the outfield fence cover. I supply them with a reward: cookie cake and hot chocolate with homemade whipped cream! I showed him the link of the golf course and he just said: "yeah, but do you really think we can spare all that time to spare the (insert sarcastic tone) rare beetle larva of the decade?". I just sigh. Change can be slow.

    Jenny

  • dchall_san_antonio
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've been chatting with woodycrest about his golf course on a thread in the lawns forum. I'm not sure how much time your husband has to put into this but here's what woodycrest has done in the past year

    1. Fall of 2005: core aerated the fairways and greens
    2. Spring of 2006: 10# per 1,000 square feet of soybean meal on the greens only.
    3. Starting in spring 2006, mowed every Friday. Greens are mowed to 5/8 inch, fairways mowed to 1.5 inches, and rough mowed to 3.5 inches.
    4. The only water is rain.

    So basically he aerated once, fertilized the greens once, didn't apply any other poisons, and he mows weekly. He was blessed with a lot of spring rain this year. Technically his turf is organic because he doesn't use any chemicals, but there is no certification or anything going on. He's definitely not out to save the whales on his course. He's just trying to reclaim a course that was in serious decline when he took over a few years ago.

    Woodycrest's greens are a mix of bentgrass and clover. The rest of the course is a mix of whatever grows including dandelions and clover, but he has not seeded bent outside of the greens. By Friday the greens have grown to 1.5 inches, fairways have grown to 3 inches, and the rough has grown to 5 inches. Note that the "1/3" rule is ignored without apparent harm. The only problem is piles of grass in the fairway.

    I believe the aerating did help his turf. I'm not a fan of aerating, but his experience is tempting me to change my mind. Certainly the soy bean meal worked wonders on the greens. I believe allowing the grass to get tall between mowing helps, too.

  • organica
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My front yard is all trees and mulch. I spread on bags and bags of pine needles and leaves collected from the neighborhood. The birds love it - they are always hunting around in there for insects and worms. No mowing, no watering, and I'm supporting the wildlife. And since I don't invest much time (or any water) in the lawn, I have plenty of both to work on my vegetable and native plant garden.
    -O

  • Kimmsr
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Weeds" can be indicators of soil nutrient and/or pH problems so what was done to prepare your soil for a lawn. Turfgrass, a perennial plant, deserves at least as good a soil to grow in as a rose does and if that is not provided very often you get sparse germination and many "weeds".
    Start with a good soil test. Contact your local office of the University of Utah USDA Cooperative Extension Service about a soil test for base nutrient and soil pH levels and then dig in and look closely at your soil with these siple tests;
    1) Structure. From that soil sample put enough of the rest to make a 4 inch level in a clear 1 quart jar, with a tight fitting lid. Fill that jar with water and replace the lid, tightly. Shake the jar vigorously and then let it stand for 24 hours. Your soil will settle out according to soil particle size and weight. A good loam will have about 1-3/4 inch (about 45%) of sand on the bottom. about 1 inch (about 25%) of silt next, about 1 inch (25%) of clay above that, and about 1/4 inch (about 5%) of organic matter on the top.

    2) Drainage. Dig a hole 1 foot square and 1 foot deep and fill that with water. After that water drains away refill the hole with more water and time how long it takes that to drain away. Anything less than 2 hours and your soil drains too quickly and needs more organic matter to slow that drainage down. Anything over 6 hours and the soil drains too slowly and needs lots of organic matter to speed it up.

    3) Tilth. Take a handful of your slightly damp soil and squeeze it tightly. When the pressure is released the soil should hold together in that clump, but when poked with a finger that clump should fall apart.

    4) Smell. What does your soil smell like? A pleasant, rich earthy odor? Putrid, offensive, repugnant odor? The more organic matter in your soil the more active the soil bacteria will be and the nicer you soil will smell.

    5) Life. How many earthworms per shovel full were there? 5 or more indicates a pretty healthy soil. Fewer than 5, according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service, indicates a soil that is not healthy.

  • theutahn
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I thought I'd give you all a follow up since I'm the OP.

    I decided to go with Dchall's recomendation and overseed my lawn. So, this last weekend I mowed my lawn at the second lowest setting; the lowest setting would have literally left nothing more than roots and stubs, and I was really worried about killing the lawn.

    There appeared to be quite a bit of thatch in the lawn (the previous owner watered daily), so I rented a power rake. MAN did the lawn ever look bad now. Lots of bare patches and many many really thin spots. The rake appeared to have ripped out quite a bit of good grass too.

    I then overseeded with a good KBG mix. I had a hard time finding seed as everyone had a different recommendation; in my pursuit of getting a good tall fescue mix 2 well recommended places told me that KBG and tall fescue don't look good together, and that the tall fescue will just get 'crowded out' by the KBG. So, I ended up with a KBG mix of highly rated cultivars. Ouch, $90 for a 50# bag!

    I then overseeded the lawn at about 8-9#/1000 square feet. Watered the lawn lightly, then rolled the lawn with the big water filled roller.

    Uuugh, 9 hours of work and about $180 invested. I'm now watering 2x daily trying to keep the soil wet. Hopefully this grass will sprout well.

    Now the bad parts; the crabgrass was even more extensive than I had originally thought. There are little patches everywhere spread throughout the lawn.

    There is friggin Bindweed EVERYWHERE. My wife thought it was ground cover, and it has proliferated in our flowerbeds. It's spread throughout the lawn, and seems to be everywhere.

    And we appear to have quite a bit of powdery mildew spread everywhere. It's on our vines, on the trees, and in our garden. Uuugh, it never stops.

    So, I think I'll let this seed grow for at least a month. If it's still warm in mid october I may have to abandon the organic method in favor of some decent weed-b-gone. And then I suppose I need to reseed all of the bare spots again next spring before it gets hot?

    Any comments or criticisms would be greatly appreciated!

  • organica
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well...

    I'm an unabashed lawn-hater and I urge you to consider deeply:

    Is it worth it?
    -O

  • seamommy
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Don't use corn gluten if you are seeding grass. Keep after the weeds and remember that organic methods will take about 3-5 years to become viable in an area that was formerly treated with chemicals. Don't give up it takes time, but it's worth it after all. Cheryl

  • theutahn
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Organica; I have a lawn for 2 reasons only. One is home value, and the other is our dogs. I would desperately like to xeriscape our entire front yard, but unfortunately we don't have the money. Someday. Because we have 2 dogs who love to run (yes, LOVE to run) and we race them, we need a yard for them to exercise in. This means I'll always need grass in the back, although I'd like to cut it down from where it is now.

    Thanks for the support Cheryl! I appreciate it. I'm using soybean meal actually, not corn gluten.

  • organica
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kincade:
    If that's the case, and you're not putting the house up for sale next week, perhaps you are working too hard! Would it be possible to simply let grow what grows and keep it mowed? When and if the house goes on the market, cover with landscape fabric and then sod.

    If it is true that lawn chemicals are potentially harmful to dogs, then your animals will stay healthier. Best of luck in any case.
    -O

  • Kimmsr
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kincade, there may have been no good reason to remove that thatch. All lawns need some thatch, 1/2 inch or so, for healthy growth. Thatch accumulates on lawns that are kept drugged, where the cultural practices inhibit the soil bacteria and earthworms that will be digesting that thatch. By removing the thatch you have removed a food source for those parts of you environment.
    Crabgrass is an annual that will be dying off fairly quickly, what I have is yellowing now, and the best defense against that is a thick turf with long grass blades that will keep the crabgrass, and other weed, seeds from getting the sun they need to germinate. At this time of year do not be overly concerned with any "weeds" since most are going dormant for the winter. Concentrate on getting that lawn growing well this fall so next spring it can compete really well with any "weeds" that may want to grow.

  • gardeniadyl
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have not tried organic lawn care. Actually, other than mowing we don't do anything. Of course we don't have "lawn" We have green stuff which my husband calls"40 mile lawn". If you drive at 40 mph it looks like lawn. We got rid of about 1/2 of our lawn by putting in beds and paths which are covered in oak leaves for the beds and pine straw or mulch for the paths. By deed restriction we have to have some green stuff out front. We are losing green in patches especially near the road. I intend to put in a tiny green succulent which grows everywhere without fuss. We use organics in our beds when we do fertilize. We do have to get away from that green lawn concept. Here in Florida all those chemicals go right into the aquafer from which we get our drinking water. Not good. Remember - less is better. I beleive most states have a group at within the Master Gardener program which promotes wise use of fertilizers and pesticides, right plant right place and water conservation. Maybe they can help you further. I, too, was aproached by Tru-Green. I just told them I don't want chemicals in my lawn. They didn't press me further. Good luck whaterver you decide to do.

  • meadowlynn
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I learned about corn gluten meal on this forum.. and tried to find some for our lawn in PA. But Gardens Alive, where I found some online, is pretty expensive. I can't see spending $200-300 twice a year, every year for something to put on our lawn. Especially when it's something it seems one should be able to find inexpensively! (Not to mention the insanity of having multiple 40 pound bags shipped regularly.) I can't find a local place to buy it. Is there a less expensive place to buy online, or better yet, anyone know of somewhere in Eastern PA or Western NJ? (or know what kind of place i should call? Some kind of agricultural place? I called the local garden centers and they don't carry it. Well, one does, but in 5 pound bags that comes out to even more than buying from Gardens Alive including shipping. (We have half an acre. Our house and driveway cover some of that of course.. and i hope to reduce the amount of lawn with evergreens at some point..)

  • lazygardener
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am writing from experience. A complete 100% organic approach don;t work unless you are at it 24/7 .
    A balanced approach is much better with ultimate goal of 100 % organic yard in a few years. Dandilions roots go so deep that no organic method can remove them. Very contained RU application is very easy. Balance it with compost and alfalfa pellets.

    -lg

  • dchall_san_antonio
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    lazygardener: dandelions are completely controlled with proper watering (deeply and infrequently), mowing (at your mower's highest setting), and, if you still have any weeds left, a Weed Hound tool.

    Maybe my lawn is different but I changed over from chemical gardening to organic gardening in 30 seconds (after the revelation). If someone doesn't have success in 3 weeks with organic approach, they need to get in here and ask some questions. I read all the time how it takes years to convert. I think that's baloney.

    And, at the risk of sounding like the organic police, suggestions for using chemicals are usually appreciated on other forums, but this forum should be limited to suggestions for organic solutions.

  • pablo_nh
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I got a pull-behind style core aerator. I did a test of sorts: ran it over the lawn in the spring, but not nearly as much as I was supposed to (need several passes to do it properly). I threw down just a little compost and seeded clover.

    My observations: you could see straight lines of green dots later in the summer. It was amazing what a difference it seemed to make, and I would hypothesize that a thorough core aeration would have made a tremendous difference. The clover germinated much easier where it fell into the holes or was covered by soil plugs that were pulled up. This seems a great prep method for roughing/loosening up the soil before seeding.

    Just recently I fertilized with UCG's, then a week or 2 later did a thorough core aeration, threw down a little (not much) compost mixed with UCG's. I seeded with grass seed and clover. It rained only one day, but there has been dew in the morning. The germination of the clover has been pretty darned impressive, but the grass hasn't sprouted yet (I hate watering- I'll wait for rain, or dormant seed). We're expecting rain tonight.

    My main issue is a thin topsoil layer, which is sandy in some areas. I'm trying to pump up the OM to keep it from drying so quickly. I should probably water to get turf growing, but it just kills me.

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I might as well weigh in on this one, since I have some experience with organic lawn care. :-) I have a few questions to ask of the OP, kincade and then I will share my own experiences. I find myself wondering what the reason was that you decided to go organic on your lawn last spring? Also, what were you doing before that? How did your lawn look when you were doing your non organic routine? Did you have weeds then, or did the weeds sprout up in the lawn since the spring when you first started trying all these organic lawn methods? I also wonder, when you decided to go organic, did you have the idea that you would be able to have a perfect looking lawn with no weeds with these methods or were you prepared to accept a little less perfection?

    I get the sense that you might have a little inner conflict about the lawn. You mention that you would like to eliminate the front lawn if you could and that you need the back lawn for the dogs. These are legitimate and reasonable ideas. I agree with you. I would not want to eliminate all my lawn. I have had plans for a long time to eliminate the front, as we have a very small front yard that would look very well with a garden instead. I just haven't got the time or do I want to spend the money right now to convert it. But I hope to eventually. But I always planned to have lawn in the back.

    But if your main reason for having the lawn in the back are your dogs, then maybe you are not convinced yet that the lawn care chemicals are dangerous to your animals? Perhaps you would benefit from doing a little more research so that you can firmly accept that for yourself. Once you understand the risk you are exposing your animals and any small children that come into your yard and play on your lawn, let alone yourself, I think you will feel less conflicted about it and be willing to stay your course and work it out. They don't put those little flag warnings on lawns that have been chemically treated for nothing.

    I think you can spend a lot of time as some people have and be successful at getting a thick, green lawn with few weeds using organic methods, but it doesn't sound like you want to have taking care of the lawn as a hobby. [g] So it is a matter of finding what works for you with the least amount of effort for results that are acceptable to you. I think that from all you have said, having a weed free, green lawn seems to be very important to you. Your dogs don't care if there are dandelions in the lawn, but it sounds like it is really hard for you to accept. If you were using chemicals before and getting a weed free result, then the change I am sure is hard for you.

    As for my own personal experiences...I have been organic for 25+ years. I have never used any chemical fertilizers or pesticides on my property in all that time. I am extremely happy doing that. I could make a long list of the reasons why, but this post will be long enough as it is. [g] I have never fertilized or put weed suppressors or any Scott product on my lawn in all that time. We just mow our grass and keep it watered when needed, which is not very often. I have thought about doing more. Maybe just working a very thin layer of compost into it in the spring or fall. Once I even thought about aerating it, but we just never had the time, so we didn't.

    This year, we have had an unusual amount of rain for us and I have not put the sprinkler on the lawn more than once or twice all season. The rain has been a real boost for the lawn. It looks wonderful and green. To me. It doesn't look like a golf course. It has dandelions and clover and if I inspected it closely, I am sure I would find other weeds in it. If I had more time, I might try a few things to reduce the weeds just a little, but my goal would never be to have just grass and nothing else. I actually want clover in my yard, as it feeds the lawn naturally and I like the look of it and other benefits. Dandelions...we juice dark leafy greens and they can actually be picked and used for that purpose, so I don't mind those either, if they are not too abundant and the lawn is mostly grass, which it is. My approach to dandelions is simply to prevent them from multiplying by mowing them before they go to seed until there are no more flowers, which means having to mow the lawn more, maybe 2x a week rather than once for a few weeks in the spring. We keep the grass high, and the mower at it's higest setting all season until the fall, when we cut it short before winter and that is it. We do nothing else. We spend no money on the lawn. None. I would rather spend money on new shrubs and perennials. :-)

    We were doing it this way before organic methods that are recommended now. I might if I had more time try a few of the suggestions..the molasses or the corn gluten etc etc, but right now, I don't have the time and I am not dissatisfied with my lawn. If I could do just one thing for my lawn, I would choose taking a wheelbarrel full of good compost and spreading a thin layer over the entire surface of the lawn, and work it in with the back of a metal rake. I would do that once a year or once every other year.

    The only other thing we did to the lawn that made us happy, was reducing the size of it and shaping it to make it easier to mow. We increased the size of the beds and borders surrounding the lawn by laying down cardboard and bark mulch on the existing lawn we were trying to eliminate after cutting it back short and that was easy. It disappeared and might have needed a little weeding and more cardboard/mulch the next year, but that was it. Now we have an oval shape patch of lawn that is a cinch to mow in a circle and that's that.

    We have a neighbor who used to use a lawn service with chemicals and he did that for a long time and now I think he still tries to keep up with the lawn chems himself. He has been frustrated with his lawn at lots of different times and right now, he is very unhappy with it. It doesn't look good at all and he seems to like my lawn better and asks me what I am doing with mine. He doesn't quite grasp organic methods so I have never attempted to sway him from his choices, just shared my own. But right now, as he is comparing the results of the organic methods I have used for years and what his backyard looks like, he is very interested in what I am doing.

    Here is a photo of my lawn this year...it isn't perfect but it is acceptable to me and my neighbors. That was taken in the spring and over the summer with all the rain, we did notice the grass thickening up and right now it looks even better than this photo. Sorry I don't have a camera to take a picture right now.

    Hope that helps and good luck with your lawn. :-)

    {{gwi:152636}}

  • cyrilla
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Has anyone read The Lawn, a History of an American Obsession by Virginia Scott Jenkins? This book and others (like those of Andy Wasowski) show how the military-industrial-gardening industry complex has brainwashed us into thinking that neat manicured lawns are the only way to look good in the 'hood.
    So cast my vote with the bunch who ask you to re-think lawns coated with grass kept in a crewcut. I think of expanses of grass lawns as green deserts, massive wastes of space. What else replaces grass? Lots of native plants-trees, shrubs, vines and other ground covers. Mulch with whatever works for your area (leaf litter and pine straw in mine) to fill in unplanted places, make paths, sitting areas, all kinds of things to make your property user-friendly. The lawn--the final frontier--use it; don't mow it.

  • organica
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think clover is a wonderful substitute for grass. It flowers and attracts pollinators, it puts nitrogen in the soil, it takes mowing and foot traffic, it makes good compost material, and needs no reseeding or special care.

  • dchall_san_antonio
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    prairiemoon2 said
    He doesn't quite grasp organic methods so I have never attempted to sway him from his choices, just shared my own.

    I think this is about 80% of America. I've given up trying to convince people to change. Unless they already understand even a smidgen of organics, I just let them be. Even my parents, sister, and her daughter don't get it.

    cyrilla said
    What else replaces grass? Lots of native plants-trees, shrubs, vines and other ground covers.

    Two of the original reasons for mowing the prairie adjacent to your house were 1) to give no protective cover to snakes and low lying vermin, and 2) to give no cover to larger critters approaching the house. In my neighborhood, both of these still apply.

  • pablo_nh
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Reducing fire hazards around your house. That's super big out west. Folks want to live "in the woods", but a brush or forest fire with no breaks between the brush/forest and your house makes saving it impossible. They're really learning a lesson about property management the past 5-10 years.

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes, I reduced my back lawn by about 30% and added more native plants and a little larger vegetable garden. It looks a lot better and is easier to care for.

    I have quite a bit of clover in my lawn.

    dchall, yes, it is discouraging that so many people are oblivious, but I have noticed more people getting interested in organics, just not in my circle. [g] Whole Food supermarkets here are popping up everywhere.

    Good point dchall, about the reasons for keeping grass near the house short. That is something I take into consideration. I really want to limit the critters in the yard. Vegetable gardening is hard enough without losing all your work to a hungry woodchuck or mole, etc. Our neighborhood is pretty urban and we only have to worry about small animals.

    Pablo, here in my neighborhood, the lots are too small to distance the trees from the houses much. But at least we are not near a forest that could start a problem. Yes, I can see that if you have a large enough lot, to keep the land around the house safe would be important and more doable. Once again, difference parts of the country have different problems to address.

  • pablo_nh
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yup. I have several oaks that could easily fall on my house from where they are. The original poster was in UT- I imagine that they wouldn't want too much sage or whatever that close.

  • pristine1
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The one thing that I stress with lawns and any plantings for that matter, is that you must start with the soil. If your soil isn't healthy, than your plants will not thrive. They will most likely live and grow, but not thrive.

    I would recommend that you at the very least have a soil analysis done. Find out the soil make up, ph, and organic content. I would also recommend top dressing the lawn with a high quality compost. Do this immediatly after aerifying in the fall. This will give your soil a boost of nutrients and help with the soil structure as well.

    You will have to adjust your weed tolerance a little if you are committed to an organic program. However, I believe that by having a super healthy lawn is the best line of defense for weeds.

    If your lawn is "coming off" a synthetic fertilizer program, you will need to be patient for a year or two. The compost will certainly help with this.

    And remember, water less frequently but for a longer duration.

    Good luck

  • theutahn
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow, this post has really taken off since I last checked in! Lots of good suggestions here; as well as a few posts that I am not sure how to respond to.

    As to the questions of the motivation of WHY I want to go organic; I suppose it is for the same reasons as most of those on here; as well as the reasons I eat organic, don't eat animals, and don't drink milk much anymore. I prefer to live in harmony with the world around me as much as possible. Enough said?

    Someone posted that it appeared I have inner conflict about the organic program. Certainly I do. I'm torn between what I believe is right, and being terribly obsessive compulsive. ;-) I want my property to look good and be worth as much as possible, but I don't believe that chemicals are the way to do that.

    In any case, I thought I might post an update of my success. The reseeded lawn looks fantastic in most all of the spaces. The spots that were nearly bare haven't taken off very well; I reseeded them and covered them in compost, and now it seems to be sprouting again.

    The shady areas haven't done well yet, but hopefully they'll take off next spring.

    And the weedy areas, well, i've had mixed results. The crabgrass is still there and green, but has my seed growing up through it. I think that's a success. Most of the dandilions are not visible or pulled now.

    On the other hand, the bindweed is friggin everywhere, even in the flowerbeds, and pulling it seems to have little to no effect. After reading about it, I think that without chemicals I will have to resign myself to having it throughout our yard. And the Nutsedge is awful. The grass has grown around it, but when trying to pull it up the roots get probably 1/4" in thickness and pull up the rest of the lawn. The Nutsedge is spreading via roots from the field next door.

    On another good note, we've nearly finished xeriscaping our front parking strips, so there is at least some grass gone!

    So, some good, some bad. Progress anyways!

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for the update Kincade. Sounds like you are really working hard to get your lawn to the point you will be happy with it and not killing yourself to do it. Progress is very important! Will look forward to hearing how it is doing next spring. Happy Thanksgiving! :-)

  • peace2usuezq
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I just had to post this after reading this thread. I hope you like it as much as I did.

    Peace

    WORK - AS VIEWED FROM HEAVEN
    (overheard in a conversation between God and St. Francis):

    GOD : Francis, you know all about gardens and nature; what in the
    world is going on down there in the U.S. ? What happened to the
    dandelions, violets, thistles and the stuff I started eons ago?
    I had a perfect no-maintenance garden plan. Those plants grow
    in any type of soil, withstand drought, and multiply with
    abandon. The nectar from the long-lasting blossoms attracts
    butterflies, honeybees, and flocks of songbirds. I expected to
    see a vast garden of color by now. All I see are patches of
    green.
    St. Francis: It's the tribes that settled there, Lord. They are
    called the Suburbanites. They started calling your flowers
    "weeds" and went to great lengths to kill them and replace them
    with grass.
    GOD : Grass? But it is so boring, it's not colorful. It doesn't
    attract butterflies, bees or birds, only grubs and sod worms.
    It's temperamental with temperatures. Do these Suburbanites
    really want grass growing there?
    St. Francis: Apparently not, Lord. As soon as it has grown a
    little, they cut it....sometimes two times a week.
    GOD : They cut it? Do they bale it like hay?
    St. Francis: Not exactly, Lord. Most of them rake it up and put
    it in bags.
    GOD : They bag it? Why? Is it a cash crop? Do they sell it?
    St. Francis: No sir, just the opposite. They pay to throw it
    away.
    GOD : Now let me get this straight...they fertilize it to make it
    grow and when it does grow, they cut it off and pay to throw it
    away?
    St. Francis: Yes, sir.
    GOD : These Suburbanites must be relieved in the summer when we
    cut back on the rain and turn up the heat. That surely slows
    the growth and saves them a lot of work.
    St. Francis: You aren't going to believe this Lord, but when the
    grass stops growing so fast, they drag out hoses and pay more
    money to water it so they can continue to mow it and pay to get
    rid of it.
    GOD : What nonsense! At least they kept some of the trees.
    That was a sheer stroke of genius, if I do say so myself.
    The trees grow leaves in the spring to provide beauty and shade
    in the summer. In the autumn they fall to the ground and form a
    natural blanket to keep the moisture in the soil and protect the
    trees and bushes. Plus, as they rot, the leaves become compost
    to enhance the soil. It's a natural circle of life.
    St. Francis: You'd better sit down, Lord. As soon as the leaves
    fall, the Suburbanites rake them into great piles and pay to
    have them hauled away.
    GOD : No way! What do they do to protect the shrubs and tree
    roots in the winter to keep the soil moist and loose?
    St Francis: After throwing the leaves away, they go out and buy
    something called mulch. They haul it home and spread it around
    in place of the leaves.
    GOD : And where do they get this mulch?
    St. Francis: They cut down the trees and grind them up to make mulch.
    GOD : Enough! I don't want to think about this anymore.
    Saint Catherine, you're in charge of the arts. What movie have
    you scheduled for us tonight?
    St. Catherine: "Dumb and Dumber," Lord. It's a really stupid
    movie about....
    GOD: Never mind--I think I just heard the whole story from Saint Francis!
    .

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kincade,

    How was your lawn this spring?

  • theutahn
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow, I had completely forgotten about this thread!

    The lawn this summer looks 'better'... It's much thicker after the fall reseed and looks a lot more green. On the other hand I have large patches of crabgrass, a ton of nutsedge, a ton of bindweed, and a fair amount of dandelions. The Nutsedge and bindweed is coming from next door (which is a canal and a field), and the dandelions come from my wonderful neighbor who mows her lawn 3x a summer. When the wind comes up it looks like a snowstorm coming from her yard.

    Life changed rather dramatically for me last winter so the lawn hasn't been a large priority. This fall I may break down and do a dose of weed-b-gon to try and get on top of all these weeds... Or maybe I'll just leave it and try not to let it bother me!

    Thanks for checking in!

  • gunnersm8
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    haha, i know its an old thread, but it reminded me of a couple of sayings i throw at my neighbors

    "you need a 12 step program to get off the 4 steps"
    i have a lawn, and im a huge proponent of a maintained healthy lawn. Here in the transitional zone i can grow gras year round. I have perennial rye/fescue in the winter/spring, which i dont have to water, and in the summer i have -GASP- bermuda. which i dont have to water. I use fertilizers very sparingly, mainly because im cheap, but also because of the chesapeake bay watershed, and because i know its not healthy in the long run.

    "elbow grease will never come in a bottle"
    i dont use weedkillers, and on the rare occasion i have, it was spot treatment with a spray bottle. not broadcast. my favorite weedkiller is an old screwdriver and a can of beer.(READ-dont put the beer in the grass, thats just silly)my neighbors laugh, but it gives me a chance to kind of reconnect after work, and in the end, whats harder work? walking around my lawn with a cold one and a screwdriver, talking to folks or watching kids play or pushing a stupid spreader around 50 times?

    i have one neighbor who claims to be "environmentally proactive" but every 2 weeks theres literally 10-20 bags of grass clippings/weeds/pine needles on the curb. her lawn still looks like $&*%.

    the guy next to me at least admits hes lazy and doesnt care, but WAS a huge user of roundup. i swear the guy owns stock.

    it took me 2-3 years to get the lawn to "30-30" standards (30 mph or 30 feet it looks pretty effing good) with tons of compost, and the yearly ass kicking i take from the aerator

    i guess all im saying is if you want grass, you have to commit, one way or another. there are tons of alternatives, but grass grows in the wild just fine, without sprinkler systems, and crap dumped on it. i try to imitate that best i can. same with everything else i plant. its simpler.

  • bi11me
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    gunnersm8, that reply was entertaining enough to justify reviving this long, aging thread. Cheers!