Wow! That's quite a program. Lots and lots of chemicals.

You can go cold turkey to an organic program. There's no need to "bridge" the transition.

Look for Milorganite on sale right now. You might have missed the sales, but generally it goes on sale for half price at the end of summer. Buy all you can find and carry.

I have been on an organic fertilizer program since 2002, but I don't use Milorganite. I use feed grains like cornmeal and alfalfa pellets (or meal if you can find it). Other organic options include cottonseed meal and soybean meal. A safe application rate is 20 pounds per 1,000 square feet, EXCEPT FOR YOU. That rate will knock your socks off if you use it the first time. Why? Because your soil has not been fed anything organic for awhile. You need to reestablish your microbial population. For a first app just use any of those listed materials at 10 pounds per 1,000 square feet. You can reapply in a month at either 10 pounds or go to 20. If you start at 20 the sour aroma of decaying protein will have your neighbors banging on the door for weeks.

Don't ever use manure on your lawn. Besides the foul smell of that stuff, it won't do what you want. You could kill the grass for a couple reasons. Just don't.

I don't suggest the use of compost except under certain circumstances where the soil microbes have been poisoned by a fungicide. If your grass is growing now, you can likely get a good start for a whole lot less money by going to the organic fertilizer right away.

You're going to have to unlearn some things about lawn care. All that stuff they were doing to your lawn is unnecessary if you're taking proper care. With organics you can fertilize any day of the year, or every day of the year, without fear of hurting the grass. Normal application times would be late spring (Memorial Day for most of us), early fall (Labor Day), and late fall (when YOUR grass stops growing but is still green).

Something else to unlearn is you don't need to make weed control chemicals a habit. If you are watering correctly, 60% of the weeds stay away. Mowing height makes up another 30% of weed control. Regular fertilizer makes up 5% along with reseeding if you have a fescue lawn. The rest is up to Mother Nature.

Insect control seems to come automatically with organics. When you stop poisoning the bugs in your lawn, then the toads, birds, and lizards, will perform population control for you. They prefer the non poisonous bugs to the poisonous ones.

Before I get into lawn care, how are you taking care of the lawn now? Specifically...
What kind of grass do you have?
How are you watering? How long and how often?
How high/low are you mowing?
Have you had a soil test which tells you that you need to add lime?

What David said. That's not a lawn care problem, it's a toxic waste dump.

Well, no, but not far off compared to what I use on an organic lawn (Tenacity [bottlebrush extract] on most weeds, Round Up to knock back the grass when it tries to invade Poland [the gardens]).

Really, with most northern lawns, mow high, feed well, and you don't get many weeds at all. This has been a Very Bad Year...I've had three weeds in the lawn. Total.

Let us know about the stuff David asked and we can recommend specifically. The one thing I can say is that the maintenance liming was probably a bad idea because I can already guess what would show on a soil test...

thank you both.
answers to dchalls questions:
Specifically...
Have you had a soil test which tells you that you need to add lime?
ph test was 6.5 taken the first week of August 2014 (lawn service technician said it was in an acceptalbe range)

What kind of grass do you have?
KBG and fescue

How are you watering?
Irrigation system

How long and how often?
To provide 1" of water per week, it requires watering early morning (4:30am) every other day. Zone 1 for 20 minutes, Zone 2 for 8 minutes, Zone 3 for 30 minutes, and Zone 4 for 8 minutes.
System waits 15 minutes and repeats zone cycle.
I do not water following a rain storm or when there is a strong possiblity of rain in the forecast.

How high/low are you mowing?
3.5 inches

You mentioned when you use the organic fertilizer you can fertilize at anytime of year.
You also mention:
Normal application times would be late spring (Memorial Day for most of us), early fall (Labor Day), and late fall (when YOUR grass stops growing but is still green).

Does that mean I would only have to fertiize 3 times of year at a rate of 20 lbs per 1000 sq ft?

How about liming?

I'd really like to try the organic program so I apologize for all of the questions I have asked and the ones that may follow.

Thanks again for all your help..

Liming would only be done on a as needed basis to correct soil nutrient levels. Not just arbitrarily unless it is part of a long term plan to slowly adjust levels.

"Normal application" would be somewhat of a minimum input level to encourge a decently healthy level of growth.

You will want to try to encourage deep root growth and prevent disease by trying to reduce number of waterings to one or two(whenHOT) times a week. .75-1" per time. Depending on weather and your sun exposusre/soil and your yard - this can take a year or longer to train the grass to grow some roots - look for water deep. Water when grass goes grey or shoes foot prints for a while.

The above. Watering should be done all at once, once a week (except in really awful weather). During very late spring, summer, and very early fall, getting down the entire inch isn't necessarily required; roots aren't growing anyway, so if it's enough water to carry it through a week, that's fine.

>>Does that mean I would only have to fertiize 3 times of year at a rate of 20 lbs per 1000 sq ft?

I fertilize four times. First of May (as organics take 3 to 4 weeks to work, bringing in the feeding around Memorial Day), August first (ditto, it starts working around Labor Day), September 1, and October 1.

Organics don't work when temperatures drop, so my winterizer when top growth stops is synthetic. On average, that goes around Thanksgiving, but it varies a tremendous amount.

Each organic drop is 7 pounds of protein per thousand square feet, or just about 1 pound of available nitrogen per thousand. Winterizer is 1 pound of available synthetic nitrogen per thousand.

That's a lower limit (three times per year organically would also be fine). There is no realistic upper limit once you establish the bacteria and fungi that eat the stuff in your soil--my top flight year was over 1,300 pounds of organic material (260 pounds of protein, or 37 pounds of nitrogen) per thousand square feet over the season.

>>How about liming?

Not at your pH. Most people also mindlessly grab the cheapest bag from the shelf, which is dolomitic lime. That contains too much magnesium and tends to send your soil into a magnesium excess.

It's not particularly dangerous, but does cause issues with calcium uptake by plants as well as making the soil rock hard.

At your current pH, soil shortages would be addressed using other chemistry than lime--but without seeing specific numbers, I can't tell you what might be short.

morpheuspa,
based off of your 4 applications per year at a rate of 20lbs per 1000 sq ft.
how do you know when to add any additonal origanic fertilizer?

>>based off of your 4 applications per year at a rate of 20lbs per 1000 sq ft.
how do you know when to add any additonal origanic fertilizer?

When growth slows, green colors fade to less thundery-dark, or if I have a specific issue I'm trying to fix.

This year, snow mold ran rampant (which is rare), so I dropped cracked corn very early in the season to inject trichoderma fungus. Although snow mold rarely causes damage, I'd still rather avoid it if possible.

Other than that, I've been maintaining my normal applications. What issues I've had are completely weather-related and will fix themselves once we actually get some consistent rainfall and cooler than 90ð temperatures.

September's drop just went as we're expecting rainfall this weekend, and that temperature drop. Summer is about to end and go into late summer.

what would you estimate the yearly cost of treating approximately 10,000 sq ft. of lawn.

what type of organic fertilizers do you use for each of the four applications?

Thanks

I've been busy but you're in good hands.

As mentioned your watering is off. The only worse way would be to water 1/7 of an inch every day. It is much better for the soil and for the grass to water deeply and infrequently. Weekly is for the hot summer. When the temperatures cool off you can go to every other week and every 3 weeks and then monthly. What you want is for the soil to dry out completely at the surface before you water again. When the roots are deep and the water is deep, the surface can become very dry for days at a time before the grass suffers. When you water every day and miss a day or two, that can set the yard back if it dries out. But when the grass has deep roots and is used to getting water every other week, I can go on vacation and not worry about sprinkler issues.

I can get 50 pounds of alfalfa pellets for $12.50. That covers 2,500 square feet. So for 10,000 square feet you would need 4 bags, so the cost would be just around $50 per application and $150 per year for 3 apps. Your lawn is never a profit center, although many people get a lot of pleasure out of having the nicest lawn on the block. I'm happy just not spending a lot of time on it and not worrying about whether it will live a week if I'm away.

>>what would you estimate the yearly cost of treating approximately 10,000 sq ft. of lawn.

$180 exactly, using four applications of soybean meal as purchased in my area (at the specific mill I go to at the prices I got this year).

The price for three applications on 10K square feet would be $135.

>>what type of organic fertilizers do you use for each of the four applications?

Soybean meal across the board; it's common here (Pennsylvania being not only corn country but soy country as well).

Sometimes I slip in some extra applications--corn (about the same price as soybean at $15 per fifty pounds). Milorganite (more expensive, but contains a lot of iron). Random stuff from Tractor Supply, usually the broken bags or stuff on sale that's about to pass its bag date (which doesn't matter in the slightest for feeding the lawn).

can you use a broadcast spreader (like a Scott's) to apply the alfalfa pellets or soybean meal?

what are the benefits of the alfalda pellets or soybean meal verus Milorganite?

thanks

>>can you use a broadcast spreader (like a Scott's) to apply the alfalfa pellets or soybean meal?

Yes, and I prefer a broadcast. I'm always careful that I include the gardens (the lower edges at least as my gardens are huge) in the lawn feeding. They benefit from it as well.

>>what are the benefits of the alfalda pellets or soybean meal verus Milorganite?

Milorganite: High iron, easily available at most big box stores.

Soybean meal: Cheaper than Milorganite, higher nitrogen so less weight.

Alfalfa: Contains root growth hormones, but be very careful not to overapply as this will SLOW root growth. 20 pounds per thousand square feet 3 times per season is reasonable. Poor feeding, cannot be used on northern lawns as the only feeding.

Most other grains (oats, wheat, etc): Similar to alfalfa but lacks growth hormones. 50 pounds per thousand required to deliver 1 pound nitrogen (~7 pounds of protein). Not generally worth the cost given the huge amounts required.

Corn: Provides fungal protection by applying trichoderma fungus to the lawn. Very poor feeding, but can be used on northern laws as the only feeding--but it requires 60 pounds per thousand square feet to deliver 1 pound of nitrogen (~7 pounds of protein). Good soil conditioner due to the low nitrogen (doesn't tend to smell as it rots, so you can add a lot).

Sawdust (including horse bedding pellets): Contains essentially no nitrogen and very slow to decay. Extraordinarily good (but slow) soil conditioner, useful as a mulch on the lawn during summer to retain a bit of water. Up to a quarter inch can be supplied at a time.

Leaves (brown, fall): Contains essentially no nitrogen but decays faster than sawdust (does not contain nearly the cellulose levels sawdust does). Good soil conditioner. Don't cover the tips of the grass post -mowing, but no other restrictions. Application of nitrogen-bearing grain like soybean will be helpful to get the leaves to decay faster.

Grass clippings (mulch mowing): Very high nitrogen. Under most circumstances, always mulch mow. Clippings don't result in much carbon being returned to the soil, but some is.

presently my lawn is quite thick,
although i am not happy with the lack of green color and two years of red thread.
this year the red thread was bad and i am having a hard time justifying paying someone $600 anually and not have a nice green lawn
if i start a organic feeding program: (with Milorganite)
1.) witll I have the nice thick green lawn I am looking for?
2.)will i have to be concerned with crabgrass and weeds?..(i have little to none now)...
3.) should i continue to use a pre-emergent crabgrass proventer?
4.) will my lawn suffer in appearance and thickness until the soil becomes rich in natural nutrients?
5.) if so how long will this take?

thanks again for all of your expertise....

1) All else equal, it'll get thicker and richer over time. If you really want a thick, rich lawn, get a soil test as well for $25 from Logan Labs. Rebalancing resources will help a lot.

2) See #3, but no more so than you are now.

3) I would (and do, although I'm more interested in suppressing out P. annua and P. trivialis, the crabgrass is just a happy side effect).

4) You shouldn't. Although there's a transition period, it's generally not that noticeable. If it is, just tap with a half rate feeding of any good synthetic and that'll get you through.

5) Full adjustment can take a year, but most people report positive effects within a growing season.

morpheuspa and dc_hall,
After mowing my very thick, red thread infested, yellow looking lawn (3 years on the program listed above and still never had a rich, lust, deep green lawn) at a price of $600 annually.
I am convinced; I am going to try a DYI organic fertilization program. I am going to start by using Milorganite, and slowly adjust my watering schedule to once a week.
What I don't understand; based on the fertilization program I am using how I could be nitrogen deficient?
Or what else could be causing such a thick poor looking lawn.
Thanks

>>I am convinced; I am going to try a DYI organic fertilization program. I am going to start by using Milorganite, and slowly adjust my watering schedule to once a week.

For four feedings per year (more optional), it's minimal effort for minimal cost and has the potential to produce very nice results.

>>What I don't understand; based on the fertilization program I am using how I could be nitrogen deficient?
Or what else could be causing such a thick poor looking lawn.

I don't think you are nitrogen short, actually. I've been trying to gently nudge you toward getting a Logan Labs (or other, like UMass, but I can read the Logan easily) soil test as I think there's something else going on there.

So rather than nudge, I'll just say it--get a Logan Labs (by my preference) or UMass (if you'd rather as they're local and I can and will happily read it for you) soil test.

I have a strong suspicion given your reports that you have an imbalance in your phosphorus and/or soil potassium levels. And some of what you've mentioned implicates other elements as well.

Which imbalance, how bad, and how to fix it I wouldn't know without seeing the actual numbers.

thanks morphesupa,
i'll get the soil tested...i'll be in touch

thanks again for all of your help

morphesupa,
i just checked logan lab's web site.
Is there a set of test you would recommend?
or would the standard test be enough?

I'm back, not that you've gotten bad service from morph. You could not be in better hands. I'm just more hands...

Yes, the standard, $25 test is what you want at Logan Labs. When nothing seems to work, then the soil test usually provides the answer. And morph is the guy to read your soil test for you.

I've been organic since 2002. My back yard is in half day sun and is too dense to mow. My front is in 90% filtered shade and mows easily, but would not be considered thin - at least not mostly. This is a lot of shade in the front.

I realize you are committed to organics but maybe a couple pictures will help you stay on track. I collect these things for people like you. Here's the first one.

{{gwi:79339}}

That was taken by GW member mrmumbles back in 2011 to show the effect of using alfalfa pellets on his zoysia lawn. He applied the stuff in mid May and took the picture in mid June. You can easily see the effect. Density, color, and growth are all improved dramatically.

Here is another picture taken by morph of his own lawn. I don't know why he doesn't use this picture more often. Maybe because he knows I use the heck out of it.

{{gwi:81154}}

That picture was taken in 2010. He will attribute the green of his yard to soil testing and improved chemistry, but you have to give credit to his organic program, too. He also has a different variety of grass and he waters differently. But the point is...WOW AREYOUFREAKINKIDDINME! Yes, you can have the yard of the month, month after month, on an organic program. What morph does to get that effect is to do things right. The cost of his lawn is not that much different from the cost of the neighbors' dead looking lawns. It's much more a matter of doing things right than spending more money.

Thanks for the pictures dc.
My lawn looks like the lawn to the left of morph's in the second picuture you posted.
Please see my origanal post at the top of the page that list the fertilization program I have.

The last two fertilization were:
VISIT 4 STEP 5: SUMMER (July ��" Aug) *DOUBLE FEEDING* temperature controlled time release Granular fertilizer w/ stress protectant, , broadleaf weed control with rain protectant, post-emergent crabgrass control, blowing of driveway & walks, disease & insect inspection, and technician recommendations, if needed. (TECHICiAN: notes, lawn has red thread, fungicide application is not guaranteed to solve problem if the weather conditions do not change)

And:

STEP 7: which was applied last Friday the 12th of September.
(Sept ��" Oct) Fall all granular fertilizer, blowing of driveway & walks, disease & insect inspection, and technician recommendations, if needed (TECHICiAN: notes, hopefully this application will push out the red thread, also recommended core aeration this fall and a dethaching in the spring to remove the dead grasses)

Do you have any idea why my lawn looks like it does on that type of program? I have read the red thread could be caused by a lack of nitrogen.
But based on the program, there seems to me that there should be enough nitrogen available.
Your thoughts?

How long should it take the last fertilization on Friday to start working?

I plan on calling the lawn service this week to vioice my concerns and disappointment.

Thank you morph and dc

I think all the ideas have been posted. To summarize: Your watering program is wrong. You should be watering once at week at the most. This time of year it should be more like once every two to three weeks. And you're getting way too many chemicals put on the lawn.

If you complain to the lawn service, they will apply still more chemicals. That's what they do is apply chemicals. They don't make any money by not selling you more chemicals and services. You don't need to aerate and likely don't need to dethatch. Those are additional profit centers for lawn care companies. They'll get another $500 out of you for those services, and you'll have the same conditions.

Cancel the lawn service and do what morph and I have suggested. (1) Correct your watering. (2) start applying something like milorganite or one of the grains. (3) Mow at the mower's highest setting. Your lawn will fix itself once you start with proper care.

Watering's the big thing with red thread, which flourishes in damp environments. Evening watering, or watering too often, will set it off.

>>How long should it take the last fertilization on Friday to start working?

One rainfall, plus about 5 days afterward if they're using a synthetic.

Reasonable rainfall through the period and about three weeks if an organic, and an organic won't set off a sudden burst of growth.

Morph and DC Thanks again for all of your help and advice.
My game plan:
1.) Apply 2 applications of Milorganite, now and again in one month. Go to four applications next year.
2.) Change my watering schedule too once a week. Because of time it will take to put down one inch of water on the entire yard. I'll water front yard and one side yard one day and the backyard and other side yard the second day.
3.) Have soil tested,
UMASS Extension services recommends not testing soil that has been recently fertilized.
How long should I wait since last fertilzation?
4.) Aerate with baby shampoo?
Do you both use this method?

Final question:
What do I do about all of the brown dead looking grass I have in the lawn?
Should I dethatch?
Or will it take care of itself?

1-2) Perfect. If you notice the lawn being pale and slow-growing, you can always slip in an extra fertilization with Milo or another organic (or even a synthetic if it's near Memorial Day or in fall).

3) Go ahead and have it tested. It's going to flaw the nitrogen number...but we ignore that anyway as it's pretty useless. P, K, Ca, Mg, and the trace elements will be unaffected.

4) If you want. David and I both use this method. It certainly can't hurt anything in the slightest.

Brown, Dead Grass) Ignore for now. It's likely to take care of itself, particularly when using organic feedings. If it doesn't, late spring is time enough to do something about it.

I learned the shampoo method from morph. As far as I know he developed it, but I think I have been corrected somewhat when I've said that before. Before that I had developed a successful method using a soaker hose. The problem with that is the amount of water had to be so low that it might take all summer to fix a 1,000 square foot lawn. Shampoo is pretty instant. I mean 2 weeks and I had a soft lawn.

You should only need to water once a week when the high temp for several days is going to be in the 90s. Most of the year you can water once a month or once every couple of weeks. With lucky rains, you might go until mid summer without watering at all. That was me with my house near the desert this year. I started watering in mid July. And now I've stopped for the rest of the year, so I only watered for 8 weeks. Supposedly this will be an El Nino year which brings rain to South Texas. I have my fingers crossed.