Kev,

Mine woke up in early January. That is a new growth. The newest growth on my Wine Delight is about 4" long and my barthiorum has about a 2" lead. Watch for roots to form on the new growth, let them get about 1/2" long and repot..

These plants are way too easy (at least for me).

Clint

mm.. it doesn't look like a new growth to me. All the new growths on my ctsms are pointy but yours is quite round.

all, except 1, of my 8 ctsms have waken up. the only dormant one is pileatum as it just went dormant in january. some went dormant in october and started new growth in early december!

jorch

That's what I thought too. It is kind of round and really doesn't look like a new growth to me. There are also a few new roots about 2 inches long even though this plant hasn't had a drop of water since January. I have a feeling I shouldn't have forced the dormancy issue.

K

It used to be that my plants would stay dormant until mid to late march and then a nice green new growth would show itself and by sometime in april watering and fertilizing would start---but now of my 800 or so ctsm's over 100 need to be watered and fertilized now and over 300 are getting close to needing the same, I am a backyard grower in south fla with just a shade house--I don't know why they are coming out of dormancy ---but they are---maybe the neighbors are just making too much noise!!! that pic of the green thing does have the look of a flower spike

I am with Clint, I think it is a new growth. It is way too low on the p-bulb to be a spike. Funny, I just noticed a similar growth on my Wine Delight. Global Warming? The idea behind dormancy is that the plant shuts down during the worst of winter. Jan 1 IMO is too late to be forcing dormancy and I probably would have just let it go on if I didn't shut it down by at least Thanksgiving. There is nothing wrong with simply ripping all the leaves of the thing at that time if it is stubborn getting the message after water has been withheld several weeks. My worry would have been that a January shutdown wouldn't give the plant a long enough rest but as it seems to have woken up on its own, as has mine, all appears well. Good luck growing it out as well this year as you did last year. I remember the photo's. These plants really make one become aware of the faster pace of time as one ages. Not sure if I like that.

H

sure looks like a spike

Kev,

It does look like a spike, but my guess is that it's a new lead, simply because of the timing. It's been so long since the pb matured that it screams 'pb' to me. And, I think that very few ctsms bloom off an old pb, before new growth starts - the only one that I'm aware of is Rebecca Northern; although I'm sure that there are others. But I've been tricked in both directions before, so don't go by what I say. And in my experience, (and not to argue with Howard), spikes always come from the base, while new pbs sometimes pop out from further up.

I wouldn't change anything about how you're treating it right now, and I'd wait to see if that little guy puts out roots. If it puts out new roots, repot and welcome to the new season :) If it turns out to be a spike, then I would spray water at the base of the plant, and maybe lightly on the pbs to keep it from shriveling.

Actually, as I think more about yours vs Rebecca Northern, I think you have a new pb there.

Carolyn

Hmmmmmmmm.......

Looks like I kind of have you guys stumped too. I'm really not complaining about this plant although it may have sounded that way. It's kind of fun venturing into new orchid territory and going through that learning curve again.

Howard - my main reasons for forcing the dormancy Jan 1 was advice given on another forum from someone who appeared to know what they were talking about. Not to imply that you or anyone else here doesn't know what they're talking about. I guess at the time this other person just seemed to make the case for doing so.

Carolyn

In a way, it hasn't been that long since that PB matured. I wasn't completely sure it had matured when I stopped water. I guess the question becomes "What is a fully mature PB?" Yes, it was nice and firm, but the leaves weren't falling and the plant was still growing roots like crazy.

I've been wrong about spike vs. new growth before, so I really have no idea what's going to happen. I've stared at this little green things lots since yesterday and it just gives me the feeling of a spike. For one thing it's the same thickness all the way up. I always think of new growths as being wider at the base. The other questions is how long has it been there? I really haven't examined this plant since I stopped the water. Maybe it was already forming and I just didn't notice it since I had given up on the plant blooming this year.

In any case, I wrapped the root stubs in sphag and have it back in the grow room. I'll keep the sphag damp and repot when I see more new roots forming. If it is a spike, I would imagine it won't amount to anything. There's always next year.

Kevin

"If it is a spike, I would imagine it won't amount to anything" Not exactly true. These plants are perfectly capable of blooming without foliage. They may not even need moisture at the roots. Read the culture notes for these plants from the Carter and Holmes website. If you read them through a couple of times you will get that the author pulls them from their pots before they are through blooming implying that subsequent spikes begin and mature while the main p-bulb is officially dormant. That certainly matches my experience though because my W.D. was so overrun with rust, and bugs and whatnot I kind of hurried its dormancy just to put it out of its misery. Two months later it threw the first of two spikes which bloomed gloriously without foliage and without water. Damp sphag should certainly suffice though Carolyn's observations about timing are also mine. It's 'time' for a new growth, not a spike.

H

Another vote for a spike.

It's the wrong shape and position for a new growth. New growths always start slightly up the length of one of the matured growths.

Catasetinae in fact most often spike/bloom in my experience when they don't have any leaves or at least they're fading.

Once growth slows down you water less, when leaves drop, you don't water.

A new growth is more angular than a conular shaped spike, not to mention, they also have roots coming out of them.

I'm less than convinced this is a new growth.

RP1

Well Sh,um, Kev, you be sure and keep us posted...

H

Well, these other posts after my comments now make me want to say spike...

Kev, really, we're not conspiring to keep you guessing ;)

Well gee, Kev, if it was growing and had active roots, why-o-why would you force it to go to sleep?! Maybe it is still on SA time, and hasn't adopted our seasons.

I know many opt to force the ctsms to adopt our seasons, but I still don't understand why. Actively growing roots = an active plant.

Now, I do understand (and agree) that plants that go dormant *need* to go dormant, but I still think that it should be up to the plant until you've had it for several growth seasons, and it remains contrary.

We all talk so much about roots here that I listen to the ctsm roots - when they don't grow, and don't really green up, *then* the plant needs to go to sleep. Not because out NA calendar says that it's winter, and it should be asleep.

But you've done more with that plant than I ever did, so take my words for the electrons they're worth and keep up the good work!

Carolyn

Why do (should) we 'force' these plants to conform to our NA climatology? Because these plants when in active growth expect (need) lots of light and heat energy. If they are awake during a NA winter both will likely be in short supply. They will sulk and possibly die, they certainly will not gather enough energy to spike. Now if one is able to (artificially) supply the energy they need then by all means ignore my suggestions. The harm 'mostly' comes from being awake during a hostile part of the year it is not as clear what harm there is in being awake all the time if conditions are favorable for growth.

H

So many of my ctsm's were waking up in late dec to mid feb that I was afraid that if we got any serious cold weather here I was in for a big loss of time and plants----well there was an actual frost in mid feb and I was not afraid for my still dormant plants but I was afraid for my new growth plants and leads---having the plants on NH time instead of SH time is really important--Carolyn I bought over 40 plants from a breeder in brazil and received them during the redland show and they were all just finishing their growth----they didn't start growing again until later in sept and stopped in oct---I just want to say they I lost most of them due to their (my) inability to get them on a NH clock
mark

I remember when we had this debate before (here and on the other forum), it seemed like people were equally split about making these plants do the dormant thing and just letting them do their own thing. Looks like I made the wrong choice this time, but I certainly don't think I killed it. It will be interesting to see if this spike or whatever does anything. I will give you regular updates.

These plants are still fascinating to me, so I certainly can wait another year if things don't work out in the bloom dept.

K

Mark, I am so sorry to hear of your loss! I remember when you posted about the frost, and you weren't sure what the outcome would be then. I really do feel your pain.

And I do understand and agree that we want our plants to grow in our time zone and hemisphere, so,

Maybe I should buffer my comments this way-

Since all of my ctsms grow indoors 100% of the time, I prefer to let them decide what their habit will be. My grow room (aka spare bedroom) and I will support dormancy just as well as active growth during the NA/NYC winter. I have a few that would be goners if I had forced dormancy - they didn't grow much during the active season, but the newest pbs got fatter and fatter over the winter, even after the roots clearly stopped real active growth. I didn't water for active growth after the roots 'gave up', but I did water, and they received the same light as everyone else. I have never cut off roots and leaves unless they were clearly dead, dead, dead. A green leaf still supplies nutrition to the plant. What makes us all so sure that nature makes all of the roots die and the leaves fall off during the dormant season? I highly doubt that this is so. I agree with Howard that things such as drier conditions may trigger dormancy, but I do not believe for a second that in nature the roots and leaves are gone (aka cut off) during the dormant period. They most likely receive less water and less light, but I have yet to read anything that says that nature stops the plants dead by cutting off access to water and (leaf) photosynthesis.

Maybe I appear to be fighting the wrong battle - I am not promoting forcing year round growth. Maybe my conditions eventually do put the plants to sleep (although they are the same conditions year round except for water and fertilizer which are only withheld *if* and *when* the plant clearly is not in active growth, (and, well, temp fluctuates with the seasons)). Rather I am for supporting the plants' individual growth cycle.

Carolyn

My catasetum grow indoors 100% of the time as well. Still, there is no denying that even indoors there is a huge difference between winter and summer. Not to pick on you, Carolyn, but this statement "I have a few that would be goners if I had forced dormancy - they didn't grow much during the active season..." is IMO less an endorsement of "listening to the plant" but more of an endorsement of finding out why summer didn't ellicit massive growth and development.

"What makes us all so sure that nature makes all of the roots die and the leaves fall off during the dormant season?" Because we see it happen. Not only to the Catasetinae orchids but in Oak and Maple trees, Iris, Peony, etc. "A green leaf still supplies nutrition to the plant." If there is sun and moisture to allow photosynthesis to take place. If there isn't, then the leaf area becomes a liability. It is connected to the plants vascular system and will allow moisture loss to take place. Deciduous trees and orchids cast off their leaves in the Fall because their presence would totally deplete the main plant of moisture and the nutrition reserves that would be neccessary to maintain the structural and functional integrity of those very leaves. "but I have yet to read anything that says that nature stops the plants dead by cutting off access to water and (leaf) photosynthesis." In some parts of the world nature cuts off the light supply, in other parts just the water supply, in still other parts, both. Whatever it is that gets cut off, it makes photosynthesis impossible. Therefore as a survival 'response', the deciduous orchids reluctantly cut off support for their foliage and roots and allow them to atrophy for the period of time that nature is 'hostile' towards active growth.

As I said before, if one is willing to stand in for nature and supply water, light and warmth, in abundance during the plants 'on' time then no problema. But, I have to say, from the evidence presented by your observations, in particular Carolyn, the conditions you are providing aren't definitively supportive of active growth nor dormancy and as a result the plants just kind of 'hunt' for a rhythm to follow. I could be wrong of course but thats how I am reading it. I was corresponding with Mr. Clarke last night and he sent me a pamphlet that (presumably) he handed out at one of his lectures. I am going to see if I can paste it into the text box. There is some interesting data in it.

H

The following paragraph is quoted from the Sunset Valley Orchids website, to wit:

[Catasetiane] are quite adaptable and grow well in a number of cultural conditions suitable for Paphiopedilum, Phalaenopsis, Cattleya, and Vanda. The most important factor is respecting their need for winter dormancy. In the late fall and early winter mature leaves will start to yellow and drop off, at these first signs begin to reduce your watering. By mid/late December most leaves should be yellow or have fallen off. At this point watering should be limited to once a month and only in the morning of a sunny day. Some shriveling of the bulbs is expected. Once the new growth has started to develop in the spring and new roots are 3-4" long resume the regular watering practice.

This may be seen as vindication for those who object to the stress on 'abundant light' for these plants but of course individual mileage will vary. There are 'some' Cycnoches and Catasetum orchids that will grow in 1500fc Phalaeonopsis light but not all. It's very easy to tell which kind you have! Much more detailed info on these plants is collected here:

Catasetinae plant culture
Cycnoches, Catasetums, Mormodes, and Clowesia

Catasetinae are some of the most unusual and intriguing types of orchids. These plants as part of their annual growth cycle have a winter dormancy period and an active growth phase, where you can almost watch them grow. Few orchid plants go through so many rapid seasonal changes. This uniqueness makes these plants fun to grow and flower.

The flowers are equally intriguing; Mormodes and Clowesia have perfect flowers like most orchids. However, Cycnoches and Catasetums plants can flower with male or female flowers that some times are quite different form one another. Catasetums in addition have a unique trigger mechanism and an ability to shoot their pollinia! These flowering habits and traits are very unusual and add to their intrigue.

The cultural information below is a generalization and will apply in most situations; however each grower and growing environment is different. I encourage you to make adjustments based on your experience and growing conditions.

Catasetinae have a distinctive growth and rest period (dormancy). For best plant growth it is important to understand and respect these growth phases. When the plants are in active growth maintain constant root zone moisture and fertilize regularly. This is essential to optimizing the development of new growth. When the plants are dormant little or no water is needed as the pseudobulbs store enough moisture and nutrients to survive the dormancy.

Catasetinae plant culture is not difficult. All it takes is an understanding of the seasonal growth patterns. The plants vegetative state signals to the grower their changing needs. Interpret the signals and make the appropriate cultural adjustments. Here is what to look for:

Catasetinae begin their new growth in early spring. However, watering should wait until the new growth has well developed new roots. This means you should let the new roots grow to an approximate length of 3-5" before you begin watering. Catasetinae roots deteriorate during dormancy and in the following year they are not as effective at taking up moisture and nutrients. This makes the new roots vital in the plants health. Watering too early discourages vigorous new root growth.
This can not be over emphasized as it is the primary cause of poor plant growth.

Once the new roots are sufficiently developed, this is the period where the plants are rapidly developing their new pseudobulbs. There is a surprising amount of growth that occurs in these 3-4 months, often the plants will double there size. Due to this, the plants require constant moisture and regular fertilization. In most cases, irrigation will be need 2 or 3 times a week. A balanced fertilizer at full strength is suitable for this rapid growth. Light levels at or above Cattleya requirements will help insure good growth and flowering.

Sometime after flowering, the plants will signal that they are going into the dormancy phase. In nature, the factors determining dormancy is marked by the end of rainy season and the resulting cooler night temperatures. This combination is the dormancy trigger. In the fall as the first leaves begin to yellow, stop fertilizing and reduce watering by ½ and when most leaves are yellow cease watering altogether. In most of the country dormancy occurs naturally however when the plants are cultivated in warm growing areas such as in South Texas, Florida, Hawaii, or in the home or under lights sometimes dormancy needs to be encouraged. The general rule to follow is: by the 15th of November stop fertilization and reduce watering by ½. Most leaves should have yellowed or fallen off by the 1st of January, however, if the plants still have leaves all irrigation should be stopped at this time.

Note: Watering during dormancy should only be done it the plant shrivels severely.
Usually a single irrigation is sufficient to restore the bulbs.

HereÂs a summary:

· As the new growth develops wait to irrigate until the new roots are well developed and are 3 to 5" long. (donÂt be in a hurry to water, it is better to wait)

· Irrigate and fertilize frequently while the plants are in active growth.

· Stop fertilization and reduce irrigation by ½ around by mid November.

· Cease watering by the 1st of January.

Light levels: Catasetinae like light levels comparable to CattleyaÂs at about 2500-4000 foot
candles (fc) However, the plants are widely adaptable and do well with light
levels as low as 1500 fc and as high as 5000 fc.

Potting mix: Any well drained media will work well.

Fertilizer: when in active growth, regularly use one rounded teaspoon of your favorite fertilizer
per gallon of water.

Air movement: Catasetinae enjoy abundant air movement, and do well hanging.

Repotting and Dividing: Is done as the new growth is just starting to develop and before the
new roots start to show. (remember no watering until the roots are
well established, 3-5" long). When dividing, Catasetinae do well
when separated into two pseudobulbs divisions.

Insect pests: Catasetinae are generally pest free, however spider mites are attracted to these
plants. Spider mites are quite small, they live and feed on the undersides of the
leaves. Take care in checking for them as the plants are leafing out and control
them with a recommended miteacide from you garden center.

Fred Clarke owns and manages Sunset Valley Orchids www.sunsetvalleyorchids.com His interests in Catasetinae span over 20 years. In the United States he is recognized as one of the foremost breeder of this genus. His hybridization efforts have created many hybrids which are garnering AOS awards across the country. He has also developed a new genus Fredclarkeara After Dark (Mormodia Painted Desert ÂSunset Valley Orchids HCC/AOS x Ctsm. Donna Wise ÂKathleen AM/AOS), is an amazing hybrid that has been producing "the blackest flowers the AOS Judges have ever seen", to date there have been eleven American Orchid Society awards: an Award of Distinction (AD), two Cultural Certificates of Excellence (CCE), three Awards of Merit (AM), and five First Class Certificates (FCC).

I've had mine bloom with leaves and without leaves. I vote for growth, but a couple more weeks should tell the story.

Sharon

Howard,

I'd like to first comment on your 1st post of the 2 that you just posted. My almost 'goners' are either keikis that started to grow late in the season or new growths on several seasons old back bulbs that also started to grow late in the season. For example, my C. tenebrosum back-bulbs (2 and 3 yrs old back growth pbs) put out 3-4 keikis last year (in addition to the new pb as would be expected for last season). One of those keikis started late, and if I had forced the plant to sleep, I would not have this extra tenebrosum that I now have - the extra would have been a goner. Another sickly looking older separated back bulb (a noid) did a very similar thing, and I have a nice fat new pb as a result. These 2 were growing (and I admit that some nutrition came from the parent bulbs) while the ctsms around them were going to sleep. While I do wonder why, I also was not going to stop the growth of the actively growing youngsters. When they did start to slow down, and the roots did not green up so nicely when watered, I did stop watering (I had not fertilized at all). On the other hand the keiki (a 2nd growth) growing on my peruvianum went to sleep shortly after the parent did, so I let it go. So I do agree with what you're saying. But I also believe that the rules are not so absolute and cut and dried. There is room and occasion to follow your senses, is all that I am saying.

Your 2nd post is very interesting and good advice (Fred certainly knows what he's talking about). And yet I do not see the recommendation that says you should force the plant into dormancy if it does not happen. It tells the reader what to do to respect dormancy.

Now, as indoor growers, how do our plants know when it's time to sleep? I agree with previous posts that a reduction in light and or water may help them make this decision. But what if the plant ignores the signals? Kevin possibly did the very best thing, tried to force dormancy, and maybe succeeded. The plant may truly now be awake.

I am certainly not promoting trying to keep ctsms awake year round, rather I am saying that IMO sometimes it's OK if they decide to stay awake.

Carolyn

I will also comment that Arthur Holst, whose book "The World of Catasetums" is the bible of Catasetum growers, clearly states that many Catasetums do NOT go dormant or, if they do, it is within the last few weeks before they start new growth. I will go with Holst on this rather than the "all Catasetums go dormant" meme. I have several species for years which do not go dormant at all and a few which still have their old leaves which are just yellowing as the new growth is beginning now. Holst's book deals with each species as an individual rather lumping them into a generalization which doesn't apply to all.

And no where does Holst recommend you cut off healthy green leaves to "force" dormancy. In fact, he advises that you try to keep the leaves on as long as you can.

Everybody can pick and choose now which they prefer to follow.

Interesting CJ, my catasetum, and I only got it last summer or so, seemed to slow down in the fall, but it didn't finally lose all of its leaves until maybe a month ago, yet it's already got two new little growths and new little roots, seeming to go along with the idea that some of these go truly dormant only for a short while prior to growing again.

I'm sorry I even mentioned removing foliage. My reasons for doing it had nothing to do with dormancy but simply frustration with the fact that the plant had become overrun with mites and scale and whatever else and the foliage was hardly doing the plant any good at that point it was in such bad shape. But I mentioned it because I have also noticed that plants that do drop their leaves naturally don't seem to care whether they do it or if you do it for them.

Although I know that you are growing your plants well CJ there are still others who aren't and IMO some of the problems that arise around dormancy have more to do with the fact that the 'summer' wasn't all that much to write home about and also IMO there might be less debate about the whole issue of dormancy if we all were growing in greenhouses or au naturel. In fact, Carolyn is partly correct: "And yet I do not see the recommendation that says you should force the plant into dormancy if it does not happen." There is a very good reason for that, Fred is a greenhouse grower as are most orchid professionals, precisely those people most likely to write books, give lectures and have orchid growing businesses. Greenhouse growers don't think about things like cues not being present because they simply cannot imagine a scenario where they are absent. In fact, I was present at one of Mr. Clarke's lectures and I raised the point that the home grower will in all likelihood not present the shutdown cues he was outlining as signals for dormancy. He concluded that I had a valid point: I think this section of his text speaks to that: "however when the plants are cultivated in warm growing areas such as in South Texas, Florida, Hawaii, or in the home or under lights sometimes dormancy needs to be encouraged. The general rule to follow is: by the 15th of November stop fertilization and reduce watering by ½. Most leaves should have yellowed or fallen off by the 1st of January, however, if the plants still have leaves all irrigation should be stopped at this time."

This does not address CJ's point but that is a new wrinkle I was not aware of. As she points out, after being presented with all this information we should certainly be well equipped to successfully follow whichever school of thought we decide on following.

H

Now Howard, our average annual winter low here in my part of Florida is 16F, with record lows of 2F. No, this is not a tropical area like South Florida or South Texas. It is cold all winter here, way too cold to have any orchids outside, and you either grow them in your house or in a greenhouse, or both. I grow both in my house and in the GH. I even grow several Catsetums under lights as well.

As an example of natural variation, I have four Ctsm pileatum species/hybrids, two in the house (heat's on so the house is dry) in a SW window and two others in the GH with a half day of strong indirect light. All four still have several full-sized healthy green leaves from last year, and they also have new growths with leaves already more than half as big as the previous leaves, and one even has two flower spikes started. They never went dormant, and never have in all the years I have had these plants. Of my 60 or so Catasetums, species and hybrids, only about half go completely textbook dormant in the fall. The rest either retain their leaves until new growth is long underway in the spring, or they drop them late in the winter just before new growth starts.

You cannot generalize with Catasetums which, in nature, can come from very different habitats; from seasonally bone-dry tropical forests all the way to constantly wet regions which don't have dry seasons. Each species is unique in its cultural requirements, and making a broad recommendation to cover them all will most likely result in many plants croaking from culture not proper for them. Maybe the reason some people are having trouble growing their Catasetums is that they are following the wrong cultural advice for their particular plant. Maybe theirs is one of the ones which doesn't go dormant in nature and they try to force it to because someone incorrectly said that "all" Catasetums require a dormant period.

Anyone who is interested in actually growing more than a couple of these should be looking for Holst's book where he treats each species and its culture individually. It's out of print now, I believe, but the online book databases should have several copies available at a reasonable price.

So again, as Howard reiterated, you have a choice of one-size-fits-all culture -- and maybe your particular plant happens to luckily be one which coincidentally belongs with that culture -- or you can try to find the correct culture for your plant, which may be vastly different.

This is what keeps our interest up with orchids. The variability of the different species and hybrids keeps us constantly on our toes trying to perfect our culture to grow the healthiest plants.

Kev, I still vote new growth...

Anyway, I don't think either my Cyc. barthiorum or the Wine Delight rested for over a couple of weeks this winter. After reading the above posts, I need to get more of these (species) and see how they react. The two I have I don't find any more fussy than a dirt plant.

Just snapped these...

{{gwi:151244}}

{{gwi:151246}}

Clint, congrats on getting two good pbulbs on that Cyc. barthiorum :envy:

Yes, very nice Clint.

After reading all of the above, I think I just got too paranoid about this plant and the rest period thing. Next year I'll do things differently.

My new growth thing still looks different. Yours is wider at the base. Mine is the same size all the way up. Maybe in another week or so, I'll post a picture of what it looks like now. It has grown a bit since I wrapped the roots in damp sphag.

K

Latest pic of the "thing"

{{gwi:151248}}

K

Oh, *that* looks like a spike! No question in my mind!

Woo Woo Kev!! Congrats!

Carolyn

Spike

Yeah..spike now..I see it...Congrats, Kev...post a pic when it blooms!

And just for the record Kev, you have done what I never could for that plant :) I really want to see a bloom picture!

carolyn

Thanks all. I thought this thing looked different.

Carolyn,

I bet if you would have kept it for one more year, you would have gotten the same. Maybe it just needed to gain some mass.

It's kind of interesting how quickly the remaining leaves are now turning yellow and falling. I've had the root stubs wrapped in damp sphag, but I still haven't seen any new root growth. Last spring it did the same thing. It just took forever for the roots to start. The PBs are plumping up again. That's good I guess.

K

Remember, these plants bloom just before their dormancy, so obviously this one thinks its dormancy has not yet begun. So watch how much moisture you give it. You are already losing a p-bulb to rot. Watch it, that rot can spread to the rest of the plant. I would carefully twist it out of the plant and wash the area well with drugstore peroxide. This will not harm the spike. Or you can sit tight and pray but no more water for awhile.

H

I don't think that pb is rotting - is it soft Kevin? I have those on my plants when the new pb (or keiki) simply sucks all of the life out of the old growth. They are hard and clearly dead, but no softness and nothing that spreads to any other plant/part of the plant. When possible, I will remove it, but to me, there is no cause for alarm on Kevin's plant. This is a similar thing on my C. tenebrosum. That is a keiki that developed on this several years old back bulb late last year. The keiki had leaves until Jan, I think. Also active roots. This is one of the ones that I referred to (above) as a goner if I had forced it into dormancy last fall. Once this keiki starts new growth, I will cut it and the dead thing out of this pot (actually the whole pot is due for repotting) and start the new plant on its own. Kevin if it is firm, you're fine IMO.

{{gwi:151249}}

Carolyn

Hmmmmmmmmmm....

If you reread my original post, I mention that PB. It isn't soft. It's old, dry, papery, hollow. Just haven't gotten around to cutting it out.

I'm really careful about the damp sphag. The plant isn't in a pot - just some sphag wrapped around the roots and the whole thing sitting in a shallow bowl. It dries out daily.

K

Really, Kev, you're fine. It's like I said - sometimes the new leads just suck the old pb dry.

It's okay, Kevin. You can cut it off when you repot.

Catasetems bloom at all different times of the year depending on the species, or the dominant species in hybrids, or sometimes in between the two. Some Catasetums bloom in the middle of dormancy on bare bulbs. Some bloom just as the new growth starts. Others bloom about the time the new leaves are full-sized but before the bulb expands. And the rest bloom at the maturity of the new bulb just before dormancy.

Like any other large genus, the individual species have different blooming times throughout the year. They don't all bloom just before dormancy by a long shot. That's totally false.

I love how all these catasetum lovers are coming out of the woodwork---I've felt like a loner for such a long time--you like catasetums? was spoken by others with the same tone I'd hear when I'd inform them of my career choice oh you teach middle school?---any way Kevin---do you have a previous pic of the blooming saccatum---the spike just does not look right for a saccatum
Carolyn----just to let you know I prefer for the health of the plant and my own sanity that the plant would be on nh time, but I would never torture the plant to make it conform(cutting green leaves, witholding water, putting it in the fridge) to make it come around to my time-----which is why I am now very reluctant to purchase any plants from south of the equator--unless I just got to have it
ps how did you do in the snow/ice storm the last few days---me I just sat around biscayne bay in my green tee shirt, brilliant bright blue sky above, a wonderful delicious cool breeze all around me temps in the mid-70's, and when I came home I went out back and was just watching my ctsm's grow
pps-I don't want to hear it when we've got a cat 5 breathing down our necks, my plants will be on the floor and I'll be huddleded up in my bathroom in a bathtub with a mattress over my head

I'm not feeling a lot of love from the woodwork right around now but I don't think I advised Kevin wrongly. We are not talking about some unknown or barely known species in Holst's manual, we are talking about C. saccatum. Its habits are fairly well known. I didn't tell him to do one thing or the other, just noted the p-bulb going off, which was actually clear from the earlier photo only it had just begun then. Since no one else called attention to it I though I would do so. I would never say that I twist off every funky p-bulb on one of my plants. I don't. What I do with and for my plants that I can see and know what is going on with is often different than what I might say or advise someone else with their plant. Not because I have less regard for his or her plant than my own but actually the exact opposite.

H

Mark- You *are* out there :) As for the saccatum, I traded this plant to Kevin, and this is it's 1st blooming in the NH. I got it from either Aranda or CJM at a GNYOS a few years back. And ouch! 'mid-70's'. I literally couldn't walk out the front door because of the ice - we had to go out through the garage because the front steps were too treacherous. But by mid day the thaw was in and sheets of ice started to slide off of things - the roof, the sky light, tree limbs. The ice covering does make for a beautifully crystalline sparkly world, though. Ah, but when you have 90-100, I'll be cool at about 80-85. LOL!

Howard - we always love you. And in many circumstances, you would be right. And it's always right to question something like that. (after all newbies are always lurking). But these plants are a little different, and after a while you just get a feel for them.

Carolyn

I agree Howard, that Ctsm saccatum is not just some unknown species in Holst's book and that, as you say, it's "habits are well known." Well, apparently they are well known ... to other people who grow them and know them well. Holst clearly states that saccatum most often doesn't go completely dormant to begin with and will start to bloom "mostly in the summer... but can bloom at various times of the year." Now mind you, the operative word is "bloom," not spike, and summer is certainly not "just before its dormancy" as you stated. Plants kept indoors in warm houses can do even stranger things. When it comes to Catasetums, you really have to read the plant and take your cues from it. As Carolyn said, after a while you get a feel for them.

So while I enjoy many of your well-researched posts here on various subjects, you apparently don't have much hands-on experience with Catasetums and have not read the book either. I make a point of not posting advice unless I am absolutely sure it is correct and applicable and preferably based on first-hand experience. If I am not really sure, I say that. If I don't know, I don't post. I don't want to kill someone's plant with advice under a false veneer of expertise I didn't have. You have never seen a post from me on, for example, Masdevallias because I have never grown them, couldn't if I tried, and therefore have not researched them enough to know them well. All I really know about Masdies is that they like it humid and cool, even allowing for the fact I have first-hand experience with the type of habitat they live in in the wild and can describe that. I steer away from stuff I don't really know well personally and will only submit my "guesses" if no one else has any solid advice either.

Howard - the luuuuv is still flowing. Don't doubt it. We always look forward to your comments. Keeps things interesting for sure.

I think I had a complete, religious-type revelation last night and CJ beat me to it in her quote from the Holst book. I took a look at that again last night and have no idea how I missed the obvious. Call it a blond moment or a boy moment if you prefer. The point being I screwed up. Here's another quote from that book: "a dry winter rest only if the plant becomes dormant for any reason." Mine didn't, so why did I try to force it? Dumb, dumb, dumb.....

In my own defense (not that I have to do that, but I will) here's what I think happened. When I originally posted my question about this plant (saccatum) the responses quickly turned to Catasetum in general. That's where I went wrong. It's obvious various Catasetum species and hybrids do a lot of different things for different people. I tried to take all that info and make a decision as to what to do with this plant. I should have just looked at what Holst said about this species and my questions would have been answered. Again, very dumb of me, but dumb moments happen. What can I say?

I will keep you guys posted on what happens with this thing.

Very nice discussion by the way. We need more of these. Thank you all.

K

Well said, Kevin. Howard has put together some truly spectacular posts and opened my eyes to different ways of looking at things, some of which I have incorporated into my own growing. But like all of us, we are not always correct or sometimes too general in what we say or don't have the "feel" for them, as Carolyn says and I agree.

I am always happy to look things up for growers who haven't been able to find enough info on the Internet if I have a book that covers their particular plant. I can't see spending a lot of money on a book if you only have one plant that is discussed in it.

You haven't hurt your plant, Kevin, because Catasetums are reasonably adaptable even if their treatment is not optimum. Looking forward to hearing more.

Update:

It turned yellow and died.

(sniff)

K

I'm so sorry to hear that, Kevin. What a disappointment! However, I have found they often put out a second spike if anything happens to the first one. Fingers crossed.

Oh Kevin! That is terribly, terribly sad news! I really feel your pain! Even if you don't get a spike off of this pb, you at least know that you *can* do it. Maybe at this time of the season, it was just not meant to be!

Carolyn

Shame :( Least it means you've got a good chance of getting some blooms next time.

Bear in mind catasetums can take quite hideous amounts of light and still be fine.

RP1

Thanks all.

I was kind of expecting this seeing what the plant had been through with my failed attempt to make it go dormant. As we all say: There's always next year.

This whole ordeal has been a tremendous learning experience and I'm still utterly fascinated with these plants. I'm sure things will work out better come next fall.

K

I'm glad to see you keeping a stiff upper lip---it might just decide to bloom again this year, so keep an eye out-