I know this is not the forum to talk politics, and I am sorry to have to say it, but I don't think things are going to get better under our current government. In fact, I think we are going to see our individual rights continue to go down into the manure pile, and this is only the tip of the iceberg. Some folks say socialism is being forced on us. If it looks like a skunk and smells like a skunk, and acts like a skunk, it's probally a skunk!

To those who disagree, how is this CHANGE thing working out for ya so far?

Organicguy,

Precisely ! ! !

Please, if you are going to call your Congresscritter and ask them to re-word this bill, don't use 'socialist' when you do it. This is a dog-whistle phrase for a certain segment and they'll tune you out immediately.

Thank you in advance.

Dan

Dan, I took your advice from the other thread and contacted my congress-people and local papers using that protocol: "good intent, needs re-wording, will cost local jobs".

I think, in addition to being a more effective strategy, it's also closer to the truth. The intent of the bill's sponsors is most likely to improve public safety. Like all bills, special interest groups motivate for or against as they perceive the bill to have side-effects that will benefit or hurt them. Agri-science corps no doubt perceive this bill as being potentially good for their interests and no doubt strongly support it. Whether or not they have been able to actually influence it's content we don't know. I oppose it just in case.....

This doesn't really have anything to do with me, as I am not in the USA, but I have seen these same rather hysterical posts over the last few weeks. I think the email has basically gone viral, and those forwarding it don't bother to use any critical analysis.

We have a program in Canada called On Farm Food Safety, which does basically the same thing as this bill, it is not mandatory for 'small scale' producers, yet, only those selling to the supply chain. Also, all meat producers must be federally inspected by the government food inspection agency. Personally, I welcome the changes. We get 90% of our produce from the USA, and after the tomato, peanut and spinach issues I think it is about time there was more regulation of the food system, not just in the USA but around the world. Don't you ever wonder what conditions those foods from China were grown under??

check these links out
http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2009/3/13/10452/9434
http://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/food/foodsafety/background-on-h-r-875
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/would_a_new_bill_in_congress_make.html

Myths and Facts: H.R. 875 The Food Safety Modernization Act
MYTH: H.R. 875 "makes it illegal to grow your own garden" and would result in the "criminalization of the backyard gardener."
FACT: There is no language in the bill that would regulate, penalize, or shut down backyard gardens. This bill is focused on ensuring the safety of foods sold in supermarkets.
MYTH: H.R. 875 would mean a "goodbye to farmers markets" because the bill would "require such a burdensome complexity of rules, inspections, licensing, fees, and penalties for each farmer who wishes to sell locally - a fruit stand, at a farmers market."
FACT: There is no language in the bill that would result in farmers markets being regulated, penalized any fines, or shut down. Farmers markets would be able to continue to flourish under the bill. In fact, the bill would insist that imported foods meet strict safety standards to ensure that unsafe imported foods are not competing with locally-grown foods.
MYTH: H.R. 875 would result in the "death of organic farming."
FACT: There is no language in the bill that would stop organic farming. The National Organic Program (NOP) is under the jurisdiction of the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA). The Food Safety Modernization Act only addresses food safety issues under the jurisdiction of the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).

MYTH: The bill would implement a national animal ID system.
FACT: There is no language in the bill that would implement a national animal ID system. Animal identification issues are under the jurisdiction of the USDA. The Food Safety Modernization Act addresses issues under the jurisdiction of the FDA.

MYTH: The bill is supported by the large agribusiness industry.
FACT: No large agribusiness companies have expressed support for this bill. This bill is being supported by several Members of Congress who have strong progressive records on issues involving farmers markets, organic farming, and locally-grown foods (Barbara Lee, etc.). Also, H.R. 875 is the only food safety legislation that has been supported by all the major consumer and food safety groups, including:

Center for Foodborne Illness Research & Prevention
Center for Science in the Public Interest
Consumer Federation of America
Consumers Union
Food & Water Watch
The Pew Charitable Trusts
Safe Tables Our Priority
Trust for Americas Health
MYTH: The bill will pass the Congress next week without amendments or debate.
FACT: Food safety legislation has yet to be considered by any Congressional committee.

Glad to hear it, pn.

The bill in and of itself tells me that Big Ag is all over it because there is no inspection-regulation increase, even as we have a pistachio problem now. All it does is go back after people are sickened and try to figger out where the stuff came from. It doesn't provide for more preventative action, likely because the offenders will have to pay fines for inspection.

I'm in complete agreement with rosalie that this dipsh-- hysteria is out of control and makes opposition look silly. I almost think it is a disinformation campaign aimed at the credulous to make opposition marginalized. If this were a satire or novel it would be easy to believe this scenario as a plot device. But in the real world? Sheesh.

Dan

i'm from aus' and for me the way i see it these days whatever happens in one of our countries inveriably transcribes to the other countries regulations, as we are hand in glove.

for me there is enough abiguity in the wording of the bill, that once adopted they could call a spade a garden fork if they so desired. and myth/fact site or maybe should misinformation/fact sites are probably put there by the administrator or their agents just for the those who have the belief that those agencies are there for our good and not the benfit of multi-nationals.

we have that rule here about the selling and movement of livestock (not just farm animals), as mentioned in a return post on that sight mentioned in the first post. that means we could not buy stock for our own use as in weiners from local auctions without an ABN gov issued number, and even if we wanted to sell a fattened weiner to cover butcher costs we could not do also, aslo under the rule we could not share our product with friends and family. and if we did we where then required to pay for them to do a check for diseases. how come we have clean heards long before this rule came along.

so to say that regulations can't cut across us domestic type people is not quiet correct. my hope is common sense prevails and this bill fails. if they mean it for commercial farms then they should word it that way, if they aren't going to have inspectors looking over fences into suburban gardens or checking local market stalls then they should word it that way.

len

veggierosalie
Because you have a sinilar system in Canada, does not mean it's right for the USA. If I am not mistaken, doesn't Cnada have a socialist form of government? A capitalist system works differently.

Please stop with the 'socialist' cr*p. RedState is dying to hear your opinion on th' Canada's soshulizm. We are not. The topic is HR 875's text.

Dan

funny...was that a joke? last time I checked Canada is just as capitalist as the USA. Although our form of capitalism hasn't caused the world financial market to crash and burn....now back to the bill...

My only point was that I feel better knowing that food in the USA is regulated since a great deal of it is exported to Canada. But if you don't care if your food is safe, I guess that is your problem?? and i really don't think this bill is as sinister as it seems, but then you would know better than I what your government is capable of doing.

I would like the author of this thread and the other hysterical anti-875 threads to please let me know if they are going to send letters of condolence or make donations to the families of the 9 people who died and 691 sickened by the latest salmonella outbreak on pistachios? Or the 3 who died, 205 sickened by the E coli spinach outbreak? Or the 6 dead kids and 300,000 children affected by hinese milk tainted with melamine? Or Mexican tomatoes?

Food safety is a real issue. Congress is attempting to address it. It appears most people have no idea how to influence a bill, so they knee-jerk instead and try to kill it.

Please remember this for the next round illnesses and death caused by tainted foods. I will.

veggierosalie,
That was not meant to be a joke or offensive. I was under the impression that Canada was closer to being a socialist country than a capitalistic democracy, with socialized medicine and the like. Most folks that I know think the same thing! If I am mistaken, I apoligize!

I have not checked lately, but I'm sure there might be another venue on the Internets to discuss (or sling mud about) politics. This space is for gardens, gardeners and discussions of literal manure.

I doubt whether this bill or any other will have much affect on food contamination outbreaks. Those inevitably seem to trace back to near-criminal or entirely criminal negligence at processing plants for the purpose of saving time and thusly money. Or as in the case of some of the chinese incidents, intentional adulturation. For one thing, funds sufficient for such an immense world-wide inspection scheme aren't there. And inspectors eventually get lazy or get paid off.

Outbreaks will continue, and if the bill is passed huge amounts of money will be wasted and the smallest and most local operations will unduly burdened.

As an interesting aside . . . Up until the advent of chemical fertilizers, insecticides and pesticides near the end of the 1800's), farming and gardening was done completely organic, with manure, especially raw manure being the main fertilizer used. I have never seen any data suggesting that salmonella or other such type problems plagued those that consumed the produce. Of coursem we didn;t have the medical technology back them to detect a lot of these organisms, but nevertheless, it these practices are so dangerous, you would expect to hear about massive outbreaks . . . and there are none that I am aware of. Just a thought . . .

Ron
The Garden Guy
http:..www.TheGardenGuy.org
April Article - "Plant 1-Month Sooner This Year"

That's because manure was being spread on the fields in a timely manner, where the microbes are quickly dispersed into the soil, rather than being stock-piled in immense lagoons which break during heavy rains and contaminate surface waters and into ag wells which are used to wash produce. Not to mention that concentrations of meat animals were much less in those times, commensurate with a much smaller human population.

pnbrown,
My point exactly! They certainly didn't age and compost it for a year like so many claim is necessary. There were fewer animals because there were fewer people, but I think they were even closer in proximity to the population than today where most people don't live anywhere near a farm.

Ron
The Garden Guy
http:..www.TheGardenGuy.org
April Article - "Plant 1-Month Sooner This Year"

I don't think you would read about large outbreaks because operations weren't so huge back then and distribution wouldn't be widespread. Fewer people would have been exposed to food that may have been contaminated.

Just a thought...

True, but a much higher percentage of the people ate food grown with manure as a basic fertilizer . . . in fact 100%, because chemical were not in use back then. So even is there was a smaller population and food was not transported very far, if the use of manure, espeially fresh manure was a serious threat, you would expect to have heard about constant illness from tainted produce.

The fact is that people thrived on manure raised produce to countless generations with no major recorded problems that I have ever heard about. If anyone else has seen reports to the conbtrary, I would be interested in seeing them.

Ron
The Garden Guy
www.TheGardenGuy.org
"New Article - Plant 1-Month earlier This Year"

Good point organicguy. My grandparents were raised on farms, and they used some pesticides. However, my great grandfather would put fresh horse and cow manure out on the garden, start tomatoes from seed, and no one ever got sick off of the veggies they grew. How do you think people farmed before the advent of herbicides and pesticides? It was organic, and the world and people were better off for it.
Buy the way, you guys get really heated about the political stuff. Contact your local reps, let them know how you feel. It's true, if we stand back and do nothing, we can't complain when it gets worse.

(SEC. 2. FINDINGS; PURPOSES.(8) rapid technological advance and the expansion and globalization of industries in all areas of Food and Drug Administration jurisdiction present challenges and require leadership beyond the capacity of any one agency or agency head to provide;)
--this should be clear who's interest is served, and the direction itself what need be opposed.

Great thread! LOL.

Just wanted to toss my two cents in...

there were no outbreaks of e coli specifically in older days because factory farming wasn't part of life yet. (And a lot of people didn't eat meat every day, either. It was a real luxury.)

There's a specific reason for e coli: forcing the cattle to eat grain upsets the balance of intestinal critters, which keep the e coli away. Cattle were not meant to eat grain in feed lots.

If you want to avoid e coli, eat only grass-fed beef. You'll pay a lot more, and it's kind of tough, but you won't have to worry about making sure that burger is well done.

I'm not advocating getting rid of factory farms; it's not going to happen because you can't feed people the beef they're used to without it. (And I eat beef, too.)

Just sayin that e coli is a result of factory farming and wrecking the guts of cattle.

Farmers know the solution, though: force feed them grain to fatten them up, then let them graze for six weeks to clear out their systems.

If there were a way to make that profitable, you could get rid of the e coli. (Although only with US beef...God only knows if it's coming from China...they still do nightsoil for crying out loud.)

Okay, rant over. Hi Garden Guy!

For those who think no business will benefit from this bill,what do you think lobbyists do? Wake up!

MONSANTO HAS DEEP POCKETS AND STANDS TO PERSONALLY BENEFIT.

Go to : http://blogs.salon.com/0002255/2009/04/13.html.
There is a link to read the bill yourself.
There is a Senate bill S435 as well. They are pushing this very fast while we are distracted with Teabaggers.

Nothing wrong with "nightsoil", for crying aloud. It's all in how you keep it while waiting for the field.

If I remember right the peanut outbreak was caused by a plant that was goverment inspected and nothing was done about the problems found there. Before we start making new laws and regs lets enforce the laws on the books. As to
problems with produce imported from other countries I'd
like to have all produce marked with the country of origin
and let the consumer decide if they want to by it.
mike

I totally agree Mike

Just a point to ponder, if this bill wasn't good for the big ag, companys they would be opposing it big time.

Also anytime I read that someone from any other country is wanting us to pass some bill, I become supspicious of that.
You've got to remember these congresmen and women who introduce these bills are sometimes encouraged by outher people to do so, it's hard not to listen to the voice of big money.

Sometimes I dont think any of us know how to use common sence anymore
If if looks like a skunk, smells like a skunk, it probley is a skuck.

As a rule no politian can be trusted, make them prove what they say, and then make them put it in common english
instead of legal talk that they can interpet any way they want to later.

This bill has NOTHING to do with socialism and EVERYTHING to do with capitalism. The profits of big agriculture are written all over this bill. I've spent weeks 'dissecting' every word in the bill and researching the co sponsors and the wretched politicians that wrote it , you should do the same. It does in fact impact farmers markets or any vegetable that is sold or meant for human consumption. It makes all growers comply with industry regulations ie insect control/pest nematodes,bacterial disease control and on and on. It hardly impacts the current agriculture monopolies and impacts the small farmers that don't have the resources to comply with regulations. Tom Vilsak (one of the bills authors) is heavily in favor of large industrial farms and genetically modified crops. Political spin confuses people, it is not about socialism per say , if we want to be intellectually honest HR 875 was born out of corporate monopolies infiltrating Washington with their money and influence. This bill is capitalism out of control,paradoxically the profit motive of corporate monopolies is behind this bill. They see the threat of small farmers and back yard growers and they want to stop it. This is all about $ business $....thats capitalism for you.