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regaldozer

Fungicide / Pesticide options

regaldozer
17 years ago

Specifically for the corn I plan on growing. The people at the seed co. stated that very few, if anyone, can get a good corn crop without chemicals. I wonder if this is true. The culture they quote is as follows:

Early May sowings should be treated with an insecticide such as Diazanon and a fungicide (Captan or Captan - Thiram)if seeds are untreated. Sowings after June 1st should not need either

Apply Sevin insecticide in 5 day intervals, after corn is 18 in./46 cm high - direct spray into the axis of the leaves for corn borers. As "silks" appear, make 5 more applications of Sevin in 2 or 3 day intervals for ear worm control

There has got to be a better way.....Please help.

Comments (32)

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Of course it's not true!! Organically grown corn is just as common as any other type of organic vegetables. You just need to provide the proper growing conditions, select appropriate varieties for your area and practice sound organic gardening methods.

    Here is a link that might be useful: organic sweet corn production

  • Organic_johnny
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yikes... that regimen is not only non-organic, but it's really outdated (there's a forum here on IPM you might want to run that by: they're not all organic people there, but they'll get a laugh out of that!)

    Unless your garden is very close to a corn field, you'll probably have relatively few pest and disease problems the first year, and your only concern will to be to identify whatever problems come up, and find an organic way to deal with them.

    Organic farmers (like me) control most of those pests using good practices in the *winter*... if you can keep them from completing their entire life cycle in your garden, you'll only have to deal with the pests that migrate from the neighbor's fields, and they won't take your whole crop.

    Here is a link that might be useful: IPM forum on GW

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  • regaldozer
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    thanks gal and johnny.
    makes me feel a little better.

    johnny - what are the good winter practices?

  • justaguy2
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Specifically for the corn I plan on growing. The people at the seed co. stated that very few, if anyone, can get a good corn crop without chemicals.

    I can't grow corn without chemicals, therefore I don't grow corn. I live in the corn belt and my home is within 1/2 mile of 2 corn fields. Corn root worm beetles are a guarantee. Plant grows fine, but the ears develop corn smut.

    You have nothing to lose by trying and then denying any insects an overwintering spot in your garden. The Corn root worm beetle, for example, will overwinter as eggs or larvae in the soil near the corn roots. Planting the corn elsewhere for a couple years ensures they have no food and die off as they don't travel far to find food until they become beetles.

  • Kimmsr
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What they are quoting is for "conventional growers" who have sick soils. If you have a good, healthy soil none of that is necessary.

  • fruitgirl
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    kimmsr, I couldn't disagree more with your statement. Even if you have healthy soils there is no way to fight off all pathogens. Like justaguy2 said, he doesn't grow corn because he lives in the corn belt and can't fight things like smut successfully.

    That's why homeowners with an organic garden in their backyard often find it easier to go organic than large-scale farms. The pathogens just aren't there (except for cases like justaguy2's).

  • dicot
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    kimmsr,

    How do healthy soils prevent the thousands of aphids I had in my corn last year? How do they stop the Argentian ants that harvest the aphids exudate and spread their eggs?

    I think good soils are the answer to many problems, just not all. Sometimes you have to spray a little insecticidal soap solution or neem oil.

  • Kimmsr
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you have disease and insect pest problems then your plants have a problem and are unhealthy. The simple presence of pests and diseases should tell you there is a problem that needs to be corrected. The only way you can tell for sure that the nutrient load in your soil is near balance is with a good, reliable soil test. If the nutrient load is not in balance you will have insect pest and disease problems.
    Why are aphids attracted to plants and where on the plants are they concentrated? On the lush new growth that has an excess of nitrogen. You do not find aphids on old growth. A plant that attracts aphids is indicating that things are amiss and there is a nutrient imbalance. Since Sir Albert Howard wrote "An Agricultural Testament" people have been writting of the change in their gardens when they adopt the practices he championed, but there are also those that questioned these practices without really trying them.
    Far too many people here do not really garden organically although they think they do, but if you still need to rely on "fertilizers" to grow your plants you are not gardening organically.

  • fruitgirl
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'd like to see you stop a pollen-transmitted virus disease (such as Raspberry bushy dwarf virus) just by having healthy plants. It's impossible unless the plant is genetically resistant. Unfortunately for raspberry producers here in the PNW, the cultivars which are suited to production (ie can be machine harvested and make individually quick frozen grade fruit) aren't resistant to RBDV.

    Of course, there's no chemical way to stop RDBV either, but facts remain that you cannot stop it by having healthy plants. Period.

    Fireblight in apples and pears isn't controllable by having healthy plants, either, given that it usually enters plants via mechanical wounds (think a spring hailstorm...perfect conditions for fireblight infection).

  • dchall_san_antonio
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    fruitgirl, why are you hanging out in an organic forum? Never mind, it's certainly a free forum and you might be looking for info, but if you have a closed mind to the suggestions offered here, you won't get the full benefit of the people who are actually making things happen.

    In Mexico they make lemonade out of lemons. Cuitlacoche (the Spanish word for corn smut) is a delicacy there yet it is considered a pest here. Because they can't get enough of their corn to "sprout" the fungus, they go out of their way to infect, ahem, inoculate, the fungus in their plants. Nevertheless, if you want to control the fungus on your plants, I would be surprised if a liquid seaweed spray or milk spray would not control it. I've been surprised before but at least I would try it. I'm relatively sure the Iowa farmers have not tried these organic remedies to most exterior plant attacks. I'm not a neem oil fan.

    I'd like to see you stop a pollen-transmitted virus disease (such as Raspberry bushy dwarf virus) just by having healthy plants. It's impossible unless the plant is genetically resistant. Unfortunately for raspberry producers here in the PNW, the cultivars which are suited to production (ie can be machine harvested and make individually quick frozen grade fruit) aren't resistant to RBDV.

    I think the key consideration in your question is that the plants must be harvested by machine. If you can grow raspberries that are resistant to the disease but have to be harvested by hand, then grow those. Or invent a machine that will harvest more delecate berries. The very first rule of successfully growing plants is you need the right plant for the area. Next rule is you have to grow that plant in the right season. If you just follow those two rules, 90% of the problems go away.

    dicot asked, How do healthy soils prevent the thousands of aphids I had in my corn last year? How do they stop the Argentian ants that harvest the aphids exudate and spread their eggs?

    Is there any argument that if you first get rid of the aphids, then the ants will go away? Okay, good. Without being a microbiologist, I can't explain why the aphids go away, but they do. I used to think that once you got aphids in a greenhouse, you had to fumigate the greenhouse. Not so. I am lucky to have an organic researcher nearby. He took me into his greenhouse one day where he was doing a limited experiment with soils. He had planted 3 of the same plants in three 4-inch pots. The soil in one was Wal-Mart potting soil. Why? Because WM potting soil is ubiquitous and can be found everywhere in the country. The soil in the second was WM plus compost. The soil in the third was WM+Compost+greensand. The three plants were pushed together and they grew with what amounted to a common canopy. When you looked in at the plants, it appeared that one plant had aphids. Then when you pulled the three pots apart, the plant with out compost was the one with aphids. While the aphids could easily walk from plant to plant, they only infested the one with untreated soil.

    In my experience, I had roses growing for years heavily infested with aphids. Then in spring of 2001, on the advice of an organic radio guy, I scattered a handful of ordinary corn meal under each rose instead of the chemicals we had used in prior years. It was almost instantanous. All that spring I had not one aphid. Of course by the next year I was fully converted to a 100% organic program and have never had one aphid on my roses since. And based on several prior years of plenty of aphids, these rose plants were known to not be resistant.

    So I can't tell you why, but I can share my experience.

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    fruitgirl's observation is valid - there are insect problems and diseases that cannot be controlled simply by having "good" soil or by following organic gardening methods. To think that is all that it takes is extraordinarily simplistic reasoning. To follow that logic is similar to thinking that by simply eating right and exercising and adhering to good, healthy living practices one will never get sick. Stuff happens and it can - not necessarily will - happen regardless of what precautions we take.

    Certainly having a balanced, healthy soil and adopting organic gardening methods can lead to vigorous and robust plantings that are less susceptible to insect problems and some diseases than plants that are stressed for whatever reason but that is no guarantee. Tent caterpillars infest whatever host plants are located in the area regardless of health when the adult moths are present. Fire blight proliferates under specific weather conditions on host plants and plant health has little to do with it - both stressed and nonstressed plants are equally susceptible. Cedar apple rusts exists because both host species are in proximity - plant health and soil conditions are not factors.

    And to think that you will never have problems with aphids just because you have "good" soils is nonsense. Certain aphid species are attracted to new growth on various plants because that's where their food source is located. There is a high concentration of sugars in new growth that aphids are able to detect by smell. Whether that new growth has been encouraged be excessive nitrogen fertilizers or simply exists because of the time of year is immaterial to the aphids. And to conclude that corn meal had anything to do with aphids not visiting your roses is to not understand the biology of the insect or the impact of avoiding chemicals had on encouraging the presence of beneficials, which are far likelier to be the reason aphids are less visible.

    And what about those aphid species that are host specific? Unlike many other types of aphids they are not drawn to succulent new growth but appear at specific times in the yearly cycle of the plant, drawn by whatever biochemical emissions attract them. They too occur regardless of plant health and soil conditions.

    Annecdotal experience can be helpful in certain situations and there is a great deal still to be studied and understood about the interaction between plants and insects but to oversimplify the issue and make blanket statements that having "good" soil and never fertilizing (because it's "not organic") will somehow magically eliminate all pest and disease issues in your garden is doing everyone a disservice and only revealing a huge lack of understanding of the complexity of the issue.

  • fruitgirl
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    dchall, tell all of the red raspberry growers in the PNW (the leading area for red raspberry production in the US) to grow varieties that have to be picked by hand, and there will be no raspberry industry anymore. It's just not feasible...even on organic raspberries that have a higher value. They're barely making a profit as-is. And the machine is just about as delicate as it can be, as is the freezing process the berries go through in the plant. The plant breeders are trying to combine good flavor, disease resistance (RBDV and others), machine harvest-ability, IQF-ability, yield, etc, etc, etc into one cultivar, but it's hard. And as to growing the plants in the right season, there is no doubt that these are grown in the right season, and in an environment that is highly favorable to raspberries.

    And thank you, garden gal, for your support! I certainly do not have a closed mind. I think there is much to be learned about the interactions between plants and soils (as well as the defense signaling pathways in plants and other "hard" science areas). I absolutely agree that healthy plants being grown in healthy, well-balanced soils are less susceptible to diseases and insects. I just think it's perhaps limiting to suggest that healthy soils are the cure-all.

  • rhizo_1 (North AL) zone 7
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The well informed organic gardener will have a good understanding of the plants that they grow. Such a gardener also needs to know a bit about insects and pathogens! There are many plants that are simply predisposed to specific insect or disease problems. Intelligent gardening (especially organic gardening) should always take that into consideration. Fruitgirl's comments are one hundred percent in line with the organic philosophy. As always, I wish that I had been the one to say whatever gardengal just wrote, lol!

  • skagit_goat_man_
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree with fruitgirl and gardengal. In the PNW when the light blight blows in your tomatoes get it. Hopefully they'll be far enough along so you can still harvest. Then there's pea enation virus carried by aphids. If you don't grow resistant varieties, mostly out of OSU, your peas get it and their season is over. Healthy soil doesn't make a difference. I sure don't see these as organic vs. non organic issues. Tom

  • dchall_san_antonio
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    dchall, tell all of the red raspberry growers in the PNW (the leading area for red raspberry production in the US) to grow varieties that have to be picked by hand, and there will be no raspberry industry anymore.

    CORRECT! I'm sorry if they are fighting nature but you might be surprised to learn that there is absolutely NO raspberry industry in the southwestern desert. If you have to fight nature to grow your crop, you should probably change crops. It might also interest you to know there is no commercial pineapple industry in the continental US, no papaya, no guava, no mango, no cashew, and no banana. Why? Because they don't grow here. Furthermore there is no commercial quenepa production anywhere in the world. Why? They have to be hand picked, they're too fragile to pack, and if they break open, their juice will destroy any packing material. And to think we can grow and pack grapes successfully. If raspberry farmers can't make money growing them in the PNW, let them be grown somewhere where they are more suited to the environment. Surely they PNW farmers won't have to resort to growing opium poppies or coco trees.

    And as usual, thank you gardengal for your comments. The simplicity of your reply can only be matched by the simplicity of my initial comments. Please help us to understand what you know about this that I did not mention. I agree that this is not a simple system. I was not trying to explain the biomechanical complexities of life in the soil or on the plants. I was trying to share my experience and the experience of a more tuned in organic researcher. If your experience differs, please share it and explain as much as you feel qualified to explain. That's all I'm trying to do. I did precede my earlier comment with a statement about my lack of microbiological qualifications. That should serve as warning enough about the statements to follow. Can I assume that you know more and are not sharing with us because it's just too darned hard for us to get?

    If I intimated that fruitgirl's comments were not valid, I apologize. Almost all the comments I read on Internet forums are valid if for no other reason than they are personal opinions. We all have to assess the comments made based on what is said here, there, and everywhere.

    but to oversimplify the issue and make blanket statements that having "good" soil and never fertilizing (because it's "not organic") will somehow magically eliminate all pest and disease issues in your garden is doing everyone a disservice and only revealing a huge lack of understanding of the complexity of the issue.

    I agree. I'm glad I didn't do any of that! I always fertilize my soil and I am a manic advocate of fertilizing. Whew! I wonder who gardengal was talking about? I think I'm pretty up to speed about the complexity of the situation. Just understanding how complex it is (over 100,000 different species of microbes in the soil is not a simple system) is what keeps me from trying to explain how each of the species interacts with the other 99,999 species.

  • fruitgirl
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    No, dchall, it doesn't surprise me at all to hear you say that there is no red raspberry production in the southwest. I knew that already, because the southwest desert is perhaps the least suited area for raspberry production one could find. We're not fighting nature here (the environment is a close to perfect as one can find), it just so happens there are some diseases that can't be controlled with good soils.

    And guess what? This is pretty much the case with ANY crop in ANY major production area. That's just what happens when crops are grown in monoculture. Unfortunately, that's how the great majority of crops are grown, and I don't think it's going to change any time soon. Americans in general don't want to pay much for food, and until that changes, there's no way the American farmer can afford to farm any other way.

    I'm sure what I'm saying is no real surprise to anyone on here, either. I'm just stating facts that back up my argument.

    And I think most of gardengal's comments were directed towards kimmsr's comments of "What they are quoting is for 'conventional growers' who have sick soils. If you have a good, healthy soil none of that is necessary." and "Far too many people here do not really garden organically although they think they do, but if you still need to rely on 'fertilizers' to grow your plants you are not gardening organically." Mine were, at least.

  • Heathen1
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Fruitgirl is right... you might wonder how much you'd pay for a bag of rice if an enormous ricefarming business wasn't going on here around Sacramento... not even CLOSE to the same environment that it came from.

  • dchall_san_antonio
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree that most monocultures get stuck with diseases but some (hopefully more and more) of those problems are solved by organic amendments. For example before the use of whole ground corn meal on peanut fields: farmers used to have to rotate other crops with their peanut crops due to fungal problem. Now they can plant peanuts every season, season after season.

    Are you saying that if I use an organic fertilizer I'm not gardening organically? That is a surprise. Can you please elaborate?

  • fruitgirl
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    No, no, no, *I* didn't say that you aren't organic b/c you use organic fertilizer, that's something that kissmr wrote that really "prompted" me to reply.

  • Kimmsr
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh ye of little faith, there is ample research, good, solid research out there that supports this idea that a good, healthy soil will help your plants grow strong and healthy and more able to ward off insect pests and diseases. Dr. Phillip Calahan did research in this area, Ann Lovejoy, Rebecca Coles, Lee Reich, Elliot Coleman, and many others have written that growing strong, healthy plans in good, healthy soil will get you plants less bothered by insect pests and diseases. It is no more the nature of plants to get diseases, or be bothered by pests, than for a human being with a good immune system, a good, healthy human being does not get sick. Human beings get sick because of a compromised immuine system and it is the same with plants.

  • justaguy2
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kimmsr, surely you realize that even people in top health get bit by mosquitoes and sucked on by leeches and if unlucky enough eaten by sharks and crocodiles?

    I don't think anyone with even a little understanding would disagree with you when you say healthy plants in healthy soil are less likely to experience pest/disease problems, but sometimes you appear to say if a plant has a pest or disease problem then there is something wrong with the soil.

    It's the latter statement that I and I believe others have a hard time swallowing. Perhaps you just sometimes speak in terms more absolute than what you actually mean? I do that sometimes too.

    I think many plants that we gardeners choose to grow are simply doomed to problems because we choose to grow non native plants and often we choose to grow plants that come from climates we can't possibly mimic well in our yard. We still want to grow them so we deal with the inevitable issues as best we can.

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    kimmsr, no one is disputing that healthy plants may be less prone to pest and disease issues and that having a healthy, well-balanced soil will help contribute to their overall health. The objections come when you make blanket statements that only "unhealthy" plants will contract problems (not true) or that somehow the soil is always responsible (also not true). Anyone who has studied plant pathology or entomology will contradict these unfounded absolutes. To make these types of broadly generalized and highly innaccurate statements seriously compromises your credibility. And then to compound it with statements like the following "Far too many people here do not really garden organically although they think they do, but if you still need to rely on "fertilizers" to grow your plants you are not gardening organically" makes you sound like a crackpot rather than someone who is knowledgeable about the process.

    It's not so much a matter of what you say but rather how you say it. The statement you made in the previous post about how growing strong healthy plants in good healthy soil will get you plants less bothered by insects and diseases is a valid contention and entirely supportable. But then you ruin it by stating that humans get sick because of a compromised immune system - while that is certainly one cause of illness, it is by no means the only one and some illnesses - just like some plant pests and disease issues - will occur regardless of what we can do to prevent them.

    Please, take some time to carefully compose the content of your responses. You have much to contribute here but it is getting lost in ill-reasoned and ill-thought out opinions.

  • dicot
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kimmsr,

    I'm really not trying to muzzle anyone's opinion here, but I must have read 30 posts on GardenWeb where you say (to paraphrase) "good soil cures all ills". I really can't imagine that you have a plan of coming to Los Angeles and replacing the crappy suburban clay soils of a million homes with the perfect loam with a high active fraction of organic matter and a perfect mix of bacteria, fungi, nematodes, protozoa, and earthworms.

    Most of us have to work around problem situations that are less than ideal. With all due respect to you and Dr. Phillip Calahan, Ann Lovejoy, Rebecca Coles, Lee Reich, Elliot Coleman, et.al., I think this site works better when you try and problem solve the specific issue, then mention that better soils will have fewer pests/diseases. Or native plants do better than exotics.

  • dchall_san_antonio
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Personally, just the mention of Dr Phil Callahan is two strikes against you, kimmsr. I used to think you were a smart guy (heh, heh). But really, I think Callahan had some wrong ideas. This is not to say that his suggestions were not worthwhile, I'm saying that his reasoning as to why they worked was incorrect. I don't know what the answer is, but I'm convinced he doesn't either. I'm not familiar with the others you mentioned but one with the book is up on my browser. I just need to find time (maybe after taxes).

    Generally I agree with kimmsr that healthy soil is necessary for healthy plants. If you don't have healthy soil, you are fighting an uphill battle. I've lived in Riverside, Downey, Hawthorne, and Pomona. When I lived in Hawthorne (1975-1979), there were still agricultural fields in Torrance back by the malls. Bet those are gone now!! But any of the soils in any of those places would be vastly improved with alfalfa pellets or corn meal applications.

    Simply stopping the use of chemicals for control of fungus, weeds, and insects goes most of the way toward good soil health. Proper watering, mulching or mowing the grass tall, and organic fertilizer is all you should need after that. And kimmsr will say you don't need the fertilizer. That may be a goal, but I continue to need it to get the dark green in the grass and fruit on my lemon.

  • Kimmsr
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Some of Calahans later, borderline, research caused him to loose respect but that should not mean his very valid research on plants and insects should be discarded as invalid also, that is kind of like throwing the baby out with the bath water. It always amazes me that people that purport to be organic gardeners/farmers simply do not believe a basic premise of organic gardening, that growing plants in a healthy soil will help them resist diseases and pests. Many people cannot believe this basic tenet because they have not studied the history and believe the synthetic fertilizer line that has become so prevelant since the 1950's and since the 1950's we have managed to destroy more soil, following that line of thought, than in the past 2,000 years and that requires more applications pf pesticides to control more insect pests and diseases than ever before.
    If you have insect pest and plant disease problems in your garden look at your soil, in depth. Do not simply say this is nonesense.

  • regaldozer
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    WOW - talk about a hijacked thread. I think I will just stick with the sevin and other sprays....

    JUST KIDDING.

    I am really impressed with the knowledge of some of the posters on this board. It is very cool to see how passionate people are about organic....
    My one newbie comment and it is not accusatory in any way, is
    Can't we all just get along?

  • Heathen1
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I second dicot... boy, do I WISH that I could have the perfect soil! Someone TRIED to replace about 15" of the hard clay here with 'topsoil', except around in the Sacramento area, 'topsoil' is all clay. I have been working on it for near 8 years... it's better, but still sitting on top some of the hardest clay I have ever seen. Now, if I only grew plants that liked hardpan clay, I'd have great plants, but that wipes out most veggies and all flowers except locals. So I am doomed... maybe in 20 years I might have great soil... :o) I keep trying. If I move, I will just have to start all over.
    I guess that I am doomed to my not so organic homemade sprays.

  • lou_spicewood_tx
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Heathen,

    what have you tried to improve your clay problem? Have you tried growing cereal rye? They grow very large root system which could loosen up clay better than just throwing mulch or ammendment on it. Might be worth a try. Put off growing vegges or whatever for a while and do something else first like cereal rye... even alfalfa too. Clovers will work as well.

  • dchall_san_antonio
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    kimmsr, are there any good Callahan resources on the Internet? I'm talking about non-paramagnetism resources.

  • bevel3
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Need pesticide for corn and egg plant. What can I use without harshful chemicals

  • Lena M
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    kimmsr gives the same suggestion/response to every question on every forum. kimmsr's favorite forum is "soil", that answers everything. kimmsr, change your tune, lift your head up from the dirt, and go smell the roses...

  • Michael
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Regaldozer: I can speak to the corn earworm problem with numerous back-to-back year experiences on sweetcorn. Living on the plains, surrounded by corn, earworms can be a problem. The simple solution that has been 95%+- for me is to spray Bt down the ear tip @ 1 - 2" long silks. It is not a high pressure spray and routinely it is done in the mornings before pollen shed begins for the day, I also add about less than 1/4 tsp of liquid dish soap/gal as a surfactant.
    By 95% I mean that of 100 ears 5 will get a worm, that may be due to only applying one spray as I don't go back and do another spray. It is a little tedious but it has worked very well for me. As for root worms, can't say, don't have a problem with them fortunately.

    Also, apparently the bt must work well relative to the speed at which the worm eats into the ear tips. The worms I do find are either dead very near the tip or the ones I miss are fat and happy down much further in the ear.

    BTW, not all garden centers have the most knowledgeable staff. Keep researching as you are doing now and you'll be fine. Oh, and, never stop researching.

    Now go get'um

    Michael