I forgot, I have over a cubic yard of yardwaste mulch (it's free stuff from the dump) that I could use in the soil if it'd help the blueberries.

Here's some pictures of where I plan to plant my blueberries. I sat them on top of the wall to show their spacing.

The soil is not normally this wet. We had 2 inches of rain the day before this photo was taken. We normally only get 12 inches a year!

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Please, no rocks of any sort "for drainage." Contrary to popular wisdom, that doesn't work.

If not wanted in containers, heavily amend the soil with compost -- at least 4 inches, more would be better. (Mix in 2 inches at a time.)

At the same time, mix in agricultural sulfur as directed on the package. Then every successive year, lightly mix in additional sulfur.

Any of that stuff you have which isn't composted -- pine needles; bark; cedar -- can be used as mulch on top of the soil.

You need to know that it's better to work with the soil you have rather than replace it with what you think is better. That replacement will give you lots of grief for various reasons. Just one is that it will complicate drainage -- make it worse -- than it currently is.

Travis:

One thing you're missing from your list is a pH meter (under $10). Lowering soil pH is much more difficult than I thought it would be.

Our successful strategy was to dig big but shallow holes (8-12" deep) and replace the soil with a mixture of 1/3 peat moss, 1/3 miniature bark, and 1/3 compost. Mix in two handfuls of soil sulphur and two handfuls of ammonium sulphalte per hole. Water the daylights out of this mixture and then test the pH in a couple weeks. If it's not under 6 yet, add some more ammonium sulphate (it will leach out as you water). Plant your blueberries and run drip to each plant. Mulch deeply with the other materials you have. Keep the pH under 6 (5 is ideal) or your blueberries will die a slow painful death as they starve.

Applenut

Thanks for the replies guys! I just found out I have a big pile of compost which I thought was mulch, so that's good. I have PH meter already, so I'm good there, and I just went to Home Depot and bought a bag of Ammonium Sulfate and some Azelia fertilizer (to use before spring). So for now should I mix in compost into the soil along with peat moss, sulfur and ammonium sulfate? Then wait a few weeks and check the PH? Once it's good then stick the blueberries in the ground and cover with my bark and pine-needles? I have a drip irrigation system too. Right now all I have is .5, 1, 2, and 4 gph drippers. I read I should go with micro-sprinkers that do 10gph. How do you guys water?
Thanks!

Applenut,

Did you mean iron sulfate? I thought adding a bunch of nitrogen to the hole was considered a bad idea. Perhaps brewcider can save the ammonium sulfate for side dressing when the blueberries are growing.

murky:

Alas, the soil sulphur takes a while to convert into acid, and the other components are not acid enough by themselves. We used the ammonium sulphate to quickly lower the pH, and yes, iron sulfate would do the same thing. The soil sulphur fixes itself in the soil and lasts long term.

We water with two 1gph drip heads per bush, spaced about 6 inches each side of the stem. The roots will grow sideways instead of down and will be quite shallow, so do not cultivate.

First of all, whatever amending you do, do it to the entire area, not the planting holes. The danger of amendments is creating inconsistant texture. The only concept you need master here is that of cappillary flow

After the initial gravitational pull brings water level to "field capacity" all water movement is cappillary. For practical purposes you only need understand that finer textured soil draws moisture from coarser.

Most amendments are going to be coarser than native soil so if you create a small planting hole with a lot of amendment in the mix, you will find it very difficult to keep the soil around the roots moist. Blueberries have zero tolerance for drought.

I doubt having a pH meter will be that helpful in measuring your progress, best to figure out the relative texture of the soil and follow directions to bring the pH down to about 5.5. Even if you can get it down to the low 6's most blueberries will do Ok in a light, rich soil (contrary to the book). They love a lot of organic matter and in the wild are found in acidic organic soils.

Your fertilizers are not slow release no matter what the label says and if you want to fertilize your plants with synthetic fertilizer I strongly recommend Osmocote. The fertilizers you mentioned are salts (without the barrier in Osmocote) and blueberries are very sensitive to them.

A good compost in the mix will probably supply enough N.for your plants to thrive anyway.

Ammonium sulfate is a fertilizer and shouldn't be used unless plants are in the ground ready to use it.

That said, it's a fine fertilizer to use once the blueberries are in the ground.

I dug out all the dirt. It rained again yesterday. Now there's a pool of water in the pit. Is this going to be a problem? I was planning on adding a bunch of dirt on the bottom of the pit and raise up the area so it'll be higher than the lawn... higher that it originally was before i dug it out. I'm planning on planting the blueberries on little mountains in the bed to get them even higher. The area where the blueberries will be is actually higher than the rest of the yard and where the lawn is next to the blueberry bed is the highest part of the lawn. You can actually see in the background in the picture how the lawn slopes down on the brick wall. So I'm hoping the blueberries will drain to the lawn and then drain to the right side of the lawn which is lower. Not sure if it'll work or not. Here's a couple of new pictures. The picture of dirt is the the good dirt after sifting out all the rocks. I plan to add that back with sulfur and peat moss.
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Follow your insticts- blueberries, like so much of what we grow, require excellent drainage and raised beds have proven themselves in commercial blueberry production so it will work for you.

If you mix in large quantities of peat moss, which isn't a bad strategy, follow directions and get it real wet before mixing and blend it thoroughly with your compost, sulphor and other amendments. Be aware that the peat moss will break down and shrink so make beds even higher than your eventual intentions.

Two things that concern me. 1: Eight bushes in 20 feet seems a bit crowded. 2. All that concrete so close to your plants looks like a lot of lime.

You seem to be on the right track and have gotten some good advice.

I would use the ammonium sulphate fertilizer as fertilizer only, not as something to lower the pH. It will lower the pH somewhat, but if you use it for that purpose, you are likely to use so much you will burn up the plants--so just fertilize with it when needed and it won't have the effect of raising the pH like other forms of nitrogen fertilizer do. Plus, used as fertilizer, you won't be using so much to cause the soil to be salted out. If you do see evidence of salt damage, you can thoroughly soak the soil so the water leaches the salt away as it soaks into the ground beneath.

To work on the pH, you can use iron sulphate, which is commonly sold in the retail market as Ironite. The dust is nasty to breathe, so avoid that, but it works quickly on the pH and supplies iron which is one of the nutrients immobilized in higher pH soils & which causes problems in blueberries when it is deficient.

By creating a high organic soil, you will be creating a lower pH soil, and it shouldn't have near the pH buffering capacity that your mineral soil has--therefore, the amendments you add to lower the pH will have a relatively greater effect and last longer than if you didn't add all the organic matter and tried to adjust your native soil.

You will need to continue to watch the pH and add acidifying agents in the future as your water is probably a pH 7 or above and will gradually reverse your efforts if not counteracted.

Finally, I have no experience with blueberries, but I would suspect that with a high organic soil and periodic amendments to lower the pH, your blueberries will do quite well even if the pH remains a bit higher than the most desirable range. Just don't let the pH yo-yo--monitor and make small adjustments once the plants are in.

beeone that was beautiful. I have one question though, in my training I was led to believe that you correct pH with pellitized sulphor which is what I've always used with adequate success.

I have read of Carl Whitcombs research on iron deficient pin oaks in very alkaline soil where sulphor almost immediately alleviated the problem (Carl Whitcomb, "The Establishment and Maintenance of Landscape Plants"). Are you speaking from more current research?

It was said:
"To work on the pH, you can use iron sulphate"

If you want to supply iron, an iron chelate is the appropriate product to use in SoCal.

If you want to acidify the soil, mix in agricultural sulfur.

When you apply repeat doses of sulfur, be certain to lightly scratch it into the soil so that the microbes can get it. But yet, take care because blueberry roots are quite shallow.

Dave Wilson has some good info on blueberries:

http://www.davewilson.com/homegrown/promotion/blueberries.html
Carla in Sac

I was hoping for an answer about sulfur versus iron sulphate from beeone, who sounds quite knowledegable, but I guess I'll respond to jean.

There isn't a region in this country with soil that doesn't contain ample quantities of iron. It's just that it gets tied up in alkaline soil so you add the sulfur and presto, the iron is free for the taking.

Now if someone out there can tell me (scientifically)the advantage of spending more money on iron-sulphate I'll be a happy man. I will have learned something.

Thanks everyone for your help! I filled the area back up with soil (took 5 hours!). I'll post photos later. The area is about 3" higher than it was originally. I was creative on what I filled the area with since it was such a large area and so much soil. I used 5-gallon containers from some trees I planted recently for measuring my mixtures.

First the low section where the water pooled up... I dug a hole a foot deep in the lowest area. the hole goes down and toward the grass. I filled the hole with river pebbles.

The lowest layer I filled with 1/3 dirt and 2/3 compost. On top I put a layer of Ironite, Sulfur, and Ammonium Sulfate plus pine needles

The layer on top of that has 1/4 Azelia Mix, 1/4 peet moss, 1/4 bark, 1/4 compost. Plus pine needles mixed in. Then on top I sprinkled Ironite, sulfur, and Ammonium Sulfate.

The top layer had 1/3 Peet moss, 1/3 compost, and 1/3 shredded bark. Then on top more Ironite, sulfur (2 lbs), and ammonium sulfate. Then a full layer of pine needles to cover everything up.

The total amount of material I used was...
1 trashcan of dirt
1 cubic yard compost
8.8 cubic feet peet moss
4.5 cubic feet Azelea mix (without Nitrates)
8 cubic feet shredded bark
2 trashcans of pine needles
5 lbs sulfur
4 lbs Ironite
4 cups Ammonium sulfate

Now I'm waiting a month or so till the PH starts dropping and I'll plant one of my bushes and see if it's safe. I don't think it's safe right now with the Ammonium Sulfate and the PH levels. I put the Ammonium Sulfate in the mix since it has sulfur to help lower the PH, but I'm thinking it's more important that it has Nitrogen in it that the soil will need with the decomposing matter. The Ironite has sulfur in it to help lower the PH and also has other minerals that the soil needs. So I'm hoping Sulfur, Ammonium Sulfate, and Ironite, along with the peet moss, pine needles, and Azelea mix will get my PH where it should be. If not, I can buy another box of sulfur and wait another month. The plants seem fine hanging out in their containers for the time being.

Travis:

Don't expect the pH to change much in one month. Not this time of yr when it is cool. It may be the middle of next summer before you see much change. I hope you plan to water heavily before you plant. This would be to leach out any excess salts and to allow the bacteria to work on the sulfur you added. There is no need to plant any time soon. I'd wait at least until Febr.

The Fruitnut

As was pointed out previously, ammonium sulfate is a fertilizer. It is used when there are roots in the ground that can absorb it. If a plant doesn't absorb that nitrogen, it will be lost to the groundwater.

Ironite is used to green up plants by supplying iron. The iron is in the product as ferrous sulfate. Because the sulfur has already been converted to sulfate, it lacks an acidifying effect.

Agricultural sulfur will provide an acidying action when the microbes in the soil convert it to sulfur.

Here's my take on the agricultural sulphur/ferrous sulphate and iron chelate.

Agricultural or elemental sulphur will provide more acidifying power per pound of material applied, however the soil microbes have to convert it from the sulphur form to oxides of sulphur, which can then act to acidify the soil. It takes time for the acidification to work and it will occur over a period of time, you have to get the sulphur into the ground for the microbes to attack, and the effect will be a bit longer acting. The larger the sulphur particles you spread, the slower the process. Elemental sulphur is relatively cheap so is often used agriculturally. We generally use sulphur strictly as a fertilizer to replace what the crops are removing from the soil, being leached away, or tied up into mineralized compounds, plus it is relatively low volume. As a fertilizer, we often apply it at 30 lbs/acre.

Another option is to use gypsum, calcium sulphate, which is commonly used to treat highly alkaline/saline soils as it is quite cheap, acidifying, and provides additional calcium. (In moister climates where soils are more acidic, they do the opposite, applying lime -- calcium carbonate-- to raise the pH). When applying gypsum, we would apply it on the order of 1000-2000 lbs/acre or more.

With ferrous sulphate, you have moved up a step in cost but you are providing sulphate ions (or is it anions?) that will provide the acidifying effect, and because it is already converted to a soluble and ionic form, it will work quite quickly. At the same time, you are providing free iron that the plants can take up and the acidifying effect of the sulphate slows the process of tying the iron up in the soil. Many soils, particularly in alkaline areas, have plenty of iron, but it is tied up in the soil and unavailable to plants, and that is the situation here. We have a lot of red soils, the red coming from oxidized iron (rust). There is no deficiency of iron but it is mineralized and unavailable. Combine that with a pH of around 8 or higher and there are a lot of plants that will die of iron deficiency. Conifers, golden willows (lost a row of them in the cemetery to that, and nearly lost the spruce trees), petunias, raspberries, and even kentucky blue grass where the lawn is only sprinkler irrigated, for example.

With iron chelate, you have a form of iron that is more available to plants, however it is relatively much more expensive. The chelate can be absorbed into the leaves if used as a foliar spray, though too strong a solution will burn. Because it can be pretty well directly absorbed by the plants, it can have an almost immediate effect on new growth. I've seen it recommended to water the ground with the iron chelate, but I think it tends to get tied up in the alkaline soil fairly quickly (I think the chelate breaks down fairly quickly, then the high pH ties up the iron again, and you need large quantities which become quite expensive.

I had always had recommendations from the extension service to use iron chelate for iron deficiency, but later I was advised to use the ferrous sulphate by a professor for the combined free iron/acidifying properties. When I used the iron chelate, I never had much in the way of results unless I sprayed weekly at least, and that just doesn't happen with me. With the ferrous sulphate, I could spread it once and see lasting effects for anywhere from the remainder of the summer to several years. Part of my lawn is watered with a sprinkler using well water which is very high in lime. Gradually it turns yellow and thin with iron chlorosis. Fertilizing with nitrogen had no effect. Add some ferrous sulphate and in a week it was turning green, growing like it was badly overfertilized, and the stand thickens up.

One year my supplier stopped carrying the ferrous sulphate but had ferrous gluconate and said it was much easier to use and worked the same--so I wondered but tried it. Think I still have most of the bag. It showed no effect on the plants, smelled like molasses and had no irritating dust so I found a new supplier for the ferrous sulphate (I'm not going to apply it if I don't get results).

I don't fully remember my chemistry from school, acids/bases, oxidizers/reducers, strong vs. weak acids & bases & the chemical reactions that take place when these chemicals are placed in solution and I'm sure there are those out there that can more than adequately cover the subject (not that I'd want to learn it all over again, though!) I mainly try to cover some of the principles and describe what has worked from experience. Plus, I've never tried to grow blueberries as trying to provide an acid environment in my soil seems like too high a maintenance.

Overall, what is being dealt with here is that in drier climates, the soils tend to have a large reservoir of lime and an alkaline pH. Acid loving plants may not need acid to live, however they consume quantities of minerals which are mineralized and unavailable at high pH, but become readily available at lower pH and blueberries have adapted to soils where these minerals are readily available. Trying to lower the pH of the soil to create an acid one suitable for blueberries is very hard, because to make the soil acid you have to essentially eliminate the alkaline lime in the soil, and it will take tons of amendments to do that. To compensate, you remove the soil, replace it with organic matter which is naturally acidic, then work to counteract the ongoing process of your climate and geology from turning the new acidic, organic soil back into an alkaline, mineralized soil and add a few of the more important nutrients the plants need so that they are readily available, even if the pH is a little higher than the plant desires.

One last caveat--in acidic soils, NEVER add ferrous sulphate for an iron deficiency. You don't need more acid (unless you actually want a more acidic soil). Use iron chelate or the ferrous gluconate.

Sorry this is much too long, but hopefully it explains the basis of my thoughts so you can judge for yourselves what is best in your situation.

Thanks beeone. There is always contradicting research especially in agronomy. The difference in the speed of transformation of the soil when rated not by actual pH but by the correction of chlorosis in the treated plants is minimal by my reading of Whitcombs research. He states that overall pH need not be corrected and that the rhizosphere can be changed in only a small area (the soils surface in this instance) and from that small altered area plants can draw the iron they need.

In other words, results with pure sulfor were quite quick- something like 2 or 3 weeks as I recall.

Gypsum has a pH of 6.9 -- that's not effective to acidify soil.

Gypsum is used to treat sodic soils -- that is, soils which contain excess sodium.

And gypsum is sometimes used to supply calcium. (That's not of value in SoCal where the soils have more than enough calcium.)

Saline soils may or may not contain excess sodium.

Consider this information from the University of CA about gypsum:
http://ucce.ucdavis.edu/files/filelibrary/2161/17382.pdf
Here's some info from the University of CA

Here is a link that might be useful: Facts about gypsum

Our well water we use for irrigation Western Palm Beach FL has considerable Hydrogen Sulfide in it, 1ppm avg. I wonder if this will help acidify the soil ph if used regularly? I just received 10 Blueberries of various southern varieties and potted them for now. I used 1/3 peat moss, 1/3 organic compost from cow manure and 1/3 partially decomposed pine bark from our firewood pile. I soaked the soil after planting with the well water and measured ph which was just below 7. So, needless to say I am panicking! I have garden sulfer I can add tomorrow, but I know that it is not an overnight solution. Can I adjust the ph of the water I plan to use to be real acidic at a ph adjusted to around 4 and water with that mostly to keep them happy until the garden sulfer kicks in? I am thinking a liquid ph adjuster like what is used in hydroponics.