OK I will chime in, if your Bermuda is so thin and not able to choke out weeds, over seeding is not going to do anything for you. The problem is not the grass, it's more than likely you, or maybe an environmental condition.

How do you mow, how often, how high?
. How do you water, how often, how much each time?
How do you fertilize, what with, how much, how often?
Have you read the Bermuda Bible?

I mow once a week at 1 inch. I water once a week at 1 inch. I fertilize with soybean meal once a month at 15 lbs per 1000. Yes I read the Bermuda Bible.

Maybe I'm inpatient but you being a bermuda sod expert can probably reassure me more than anyone that if I keep up the work the bermuda will take over and thicken up in the next year or two.

Thanks, Jason

I used organic ferts when I lived in the north. When I returned to the south and Bermuda, I realized quickly this wasn't going to work, at least not for me. I started using the 39-0-0 every 30 days and wow, what a difference. Even with our severe drought, and water restrictions, I manged to keep my 419 looking good (except in a small shaded area, another issue).

Will you consider using a synthetic fert? You'll have to cut more frequently, thoug.

> "I'm desperate to try and thicken my lawn to crowd out this stupid crabgrass....I fertilize with soybean meal once a month at 15 lbs per 1000"

There's your problem. You're not giving the Bermuda enough
nitrogen it requires. Try some 39-0-0 and see what happens.

Well, I figure 14-15 lbs 1000/ft2 of SBM is equal in nitrogen of 1-pound 1000/ft2.

Well I hope 1 lbs is enough. I am sticking to organics so no 39-0-0.

Jason

Using "organic" fertilizer is OK if you want to go that way. I wouldn't. It's a waste of time in my opinion. Don't expect much from the organic stuff. Over-seeding will be much slower than trying to accelerate the growth of what you have. Using a good nitrogen fertilizer will accelerate your Bermuda growth rate a lot and make it dark green.

>"Well I hope 1 lbs is enough"

You can go as high as 1.5lbs. Like rdaystrom says, using a good nitrogen fertilizer will accelerate your Bermuda growth fast. That would give you a tight turf much quicker.

> "I am sticking to organics so no 39-0-0"

I respect that, and have nothing against organics.

Against the advice of many I bought several varieties of seed, mixed them together, and overseeded a few areas with poor or no growth. It only took about 2 months to fill in, and overall the seeded bermuda has slightly larger blades and some spots are a slightly different green color. The bottom line for me is that I finally have a full thick lawn and I'm happy. It was also low cost and didn't require a huge amount of work.

If you want to overseed then do it before its too late this season.

Funny no one here has asked about Shade.
Bermuda hates shade and just won't do well with much shade at all.... except for 1 brand new hybrid that is still pretty high $$$ right now....

On organics...

Organics can probably work as well... just gotta know that they take longer to process into the soil than many Synthetics.... Upside is they don't burn... Downside is that they may have a harder time keeping up with super heavy feeders unless you go a little nuts...

Double or triple your application rates or even more... As much as you can put up with. Also add some Milorganite -- as the Iron and Calcium help quite a bit with color...

Think it's crazy -- there are guys who feed Kentucky Blue Grass with something nuts like 70-100 lbs Milorganite + Gluten Meal + Soybean meal / 1,000 sq-ft every month.... and KBG isn't known for feeding as heavily as Bermuda... though it is a heavy feeder too...

Try an experiment in 1 small area -- like 10'x10' that gets full sun...

Put down your regular full Soybean meal dose, then 2-weeks later put down a dose of Milorganite at 20 lbs/1,000 sq-ft, then 2 weeks later, start over.... Do this thru the end of August and see what happens...

Myself.. On my own if 419 Bermuda... I am using 1lb synthetic nitrogen/1,000sq-ft per month + 20 lbs Milorganite/1,000 sq-ft per month....

It's spectacular like you wouldn't believe.... Literally chokes out and crawls over top of Crabgrass and everything else...

Thanks

John

Well I have a bag of Corn Gluten Meal that I'm trying to save for September to put out for cool season weeds. That stuff cost $25 for 40 lbs, so its pricey. Milorganite is about $12.00 for a 40 lbs bag and Soybean is $13.00 for a 50 lbs bag. I thought milorganite and soybean meal had about the same nitrogen? Maybe mixing those two together would produce some better results. Then again maybe I'm asking the wrong forum for organic advice.

Milorganite is listed as 5-2-0 with 4% iron and 1% Ca. It only has 0.5% "Fast release" nitrogen... the rest has to be processed by the soil microbes...

I have seen a whole bunch of different numbers for CGM -- ranging from 9-1-0 to 5-0-0.... I guess it depends on who you ask...

Same deal there on release.... It's gotta be processed by your soil microbes before it becomes available....

From what I've read -- the Calcium is as important as the Nitrogen for healthy growth... and the Milorganite has the edge there....

I know that Milorganite turns my bermuda a spectacular green that super-duper high nitrogen doesn't..... but I also have pretty poor soil... Deficient in everything... Literally...

I have learned with Bermuda -- Err on the side of "Oops, I put down 3x too much" rather than too little....

Thanks

John

Sunfire,

DonÂt take anything I say as criticism, think of it as honest firm feedback OK?

Assuming you do not have a shade issue, then the problem is likely your preferred choice of fertilizer. Now here is where I will contradict myself. At my home, I use only CGM at a rate of 20 pounds per 1000/ft2. However the soil around my home is rich sandy loam that was once farm land and horse barn. My organic matter is off the charts with over a century of TLC. The point I am making is my soil has an abundance of microbes and worms to break down the CGM. The other advantage I have is I pay only $120 per ton for CGM.

You can use SBM if you wish. But it may take a few seasons for your soil to build up enough microbes to break down the SBM quickly enough to satisfy Bermuda. Bermuda is a nitrogen hog.

I know you want to stick with Organics, but allow me to offer this. The 39-0-0 I recommend is organic IMHO. To be more accurate it is a man made synthetic/organic compound. Basically the same stuff everyone pees many times a day. That compound is Urea, a food additive for live stock.

So try this one time and see what happens. Locate a Lesco-John Deer fertilizer dealer. Purchase 1 bag of product number 000777 which is the 39-0-0 slow release urea fertilizer. If you do not have a Lesco dealer around go to a box store and look for Vigaro product that uses urea. I do not know the product number off hand, but many posters on this forum have used it and hopefully chime in on the product number. I think it is something like a 35-0-3. Look at the label and see what is in it for a nitrogen source. Should be X % fast release urea, and Y % slow release urea.

Apply the product, water it in, wait a week and see what happens. I bet you will be pleasantly surprised.

TW, will the urea based fertilizer hurt my soil microbes? I have put a lot of organic time into my lawn and don't want anything to wipe out what I've put into it. Sounds good otherwise.

Jason

Also would I use it every month or as the bag suggests which is every 5 months or so. I can only get the Vigoro Super Green around here.

Jason

Every month until 1 month before the 1st frost.

Vigoro Super-green is a poly coated urea -- which will do the trick.

Another product that looked promising is the Scott's Southern Turf Builder -- it's a poly coated urea + Potassium sulphate + iron, Zinc, and maybe a little Calcium.... This mix should help with stress when it's crazy hot outside...

I gotta say -- you are missing out if you don't try Milorganite on your Bermuda....

Thanks

John

TW, will the urea based fertilizer hurt my soil microbes?

No that is why I suggest it. It is the only fertilizer we use on the sod farm and my Son uses in his Landscape business. My farm OM content varies from 5 to 8%. It don't get any better than that. But of course that is two centuries of TLC farming on it.

What you want to stay away from is anything containing Ammonia and Sulfates example Ammonia Nitrate, or Ammonia Sulfate.

Also would I use it every month or as the bag suggests which is every 5 months or so. Every 30 to 45 days up until 30 days before your first frost date... Then when it goes to sleep, get a soil sample done in the winter to see where you are at. Then if needed use a balanced fertilizer in the spring for the first application after the Bermuda is about 50 to 75% green and has been mowed. Or after your first mowing of real grass, not winter weeds.

If you are really worried about using urea, try a hybrid approach. Use half urea, and half SBM separated by two weeks. So first week, you apply 1/2 strength urea, wait two weeks, apply 1/2 strength SBM. Then gradually ween the grass off urea once your soil can process SBM fast enough to satisfy the Bermuda. But I will tell you right up front, using all SBM or CGM will never make your grass as green as urea... My secret weapon on my home lawn is a tea made from chicken house litter of a nearby farm. Also some horse and cow poo once in a while. I do not suggest that for city slicker though as the neighbors noses might be offended by Mother Nature farm aroma...

Okay so I stepped outside the box and bought some Vigoro Super Green 35-0-5 and applied it yesterday. Hope it helps the bermuda grow quick. The bag said it covers 5000 sq ft and I used all of it on my 3000 sq ft yard. So I guess I over applied it a little.

Okay so I stepped outside the box and bought some Vigoro Super Green 35-0-5 and applied it yesterday.

OK take two aspirins daily for a week, give the grass a good soaking to water in the fertilizer, and get back with us in a week so you can say thank you. :>)