Dallisgrass! Overseed or start over? What grass type?

8 years ago

Hi, I bought a home 2 years ago. Front and back lawns were in pretty awful shape.

In the front lawn I haven't done too much. Watering, fertilizing mowing and weeding have made it green, but it is not at all quality grass. It is very inconsistent in its look.
Pics of front lawn.

There is also quite a bit of dallisgrass. Most weeds I try to hand pull, but dallisgrass loves the heat and getting out to pull weeds is... challenging. So it gets bigger.
This fall I was thinking of overseeding to try to get some quality grass in there, to crowd out the weeds but after reading several posts I am thinking it may be a better idea to roundup and start all new in fall. Should I try to salvage what is there or start over?

I also am wondering what type of grass i should use. Bermudagrass has been suggested (bermudagrass weeds love it here, Plumas Lake CA 95961) but I don't really like the look of the super-short grass, plus there is no separation between mt lawn and my neighbors so I don't want something that spreads a lot. Tall Fescue is very popular here I but it does get quite hot in the summer. I planted Jonathan Green's black beauty in the back lawn last fall and it is doing o.k. but i am wondering if i should have looked harder for a higher quality mix. Any suggestions as to type and variety is should use?

This post was edited by MichaelWilliams on Fri, Sep 13, 13 at 13:39

Sort by:Oldest

Comments (29)

texas_weed
8 years ago
Well to late to seed Bermuda. Regardless of what you decide unless you eliminate the Dallisgrass all is lost. Dallisgrass is an extremely hard weed to irradiate and spreads faster than Bermuda.
MichaelWilliams
Original Author
8 years ago
Roundup sounds better then. So here is my plan:

mow low and water well
spray RU 2 days later
water 3 min 2x a day
spray RU again in 3 weeks
water 3 min 2x a day
spray RU again
plant in sept/oct

Will TTTF (cool season) be able to out-compete dallisgrass in the heat of summer (mowed at 3" and watered 1" once a week)?
Related Discussions
What grass to overseed Pennington Ultimate Grass Lawn?
Q
Comments (7)
I disagree with Auteck's recommendation, and I'm a little surprised he recommended what he did. Your original grass seed mix selection was tall fescue, fine fescues and KBG. I suspect you have mostly tall fescue growing since you have bare spots. If the KBG in your original grass mix had germinated fully, then it should fill in bare areas in the sunnier parts of your lawn. I agree with him in that perennial rye is usually what is grown in your area, but there was no perennial rye in that original mix. Overseeding your lawn with it now will give you some throughout the whole lawn, but the bare spots will be all PR, and they will stand out against the TF you have now. My advice, use either all TF to overseed, or a mix that has similar percentages to your original mix. I would also stick with Pennington's as it is usually the best mix in the big box stores.
...See More
want to overseed with KBG so that it takes over
Q
Comments (3)
Midnight II Prosperity Brilliant Equal parts by weight 3-4 (no more) pounds/1000 Mow this lawn at about 2.5 inches. Higher if you wish. You can purchase these from Roselawn Agriseed 503-651-2130 ask for John 1. Get a soil test. Call your nearest county extension service for a test kit and sampling details. It will likely take two weeks for results. If you need to apply sulfur, lime, or any other amendment per test recommendation (that is not applied in Step 6), you can do it after seeding if you don't get results back in time. 2. Apply that "R" word stuff and again one week later. You can seed the lawn one week after the second app. 3. Scalp it down 4. Rake it up 5. Core aerate 6. Fertilize 7. Sow seeds (slit seeding is preferred) 8. Topdress 1/4 inch layer compost, peat moss, or clean straw (weed-free). 9. water 15-20 minutes twice a day for two weeks water 20-30 minutes once a day for one week water 30-45 minutes once a day every other day for one week water 30-45 minutes once a day twice a week for one week move into deep irrigation, increasing the time to provide 1 inch of water all over and decreasing the frequency to just once a week. Starting off, the schedule supplies roughly 1/4 inch of water, then increases that amount while decreasing frequency of application at the same time. Like practically everything that concerns lawn care, this schedule is a general guideline and should be modified to accomodate your specific conditions. The lengths of time should be modified if you have an automatic sprinkler system since that will not take as long to provide adequate moisture. So, decrease amount of water (time) but maintain frequency as is. The tuna cans test is recommended. If it is still especially warm, you may want to irrigate 3 times a day (10-15 minutes if necessary) for that first couple weeks. Your objective is to keep the upper 1 inch of soil moist and not let the seeds dry out. Baby the grass for the rest of year. Once the seeds begin to germinate, don't walk on it if at all possible. Both core aerating and slit seeding are suggested, but you don't want to do both. My suggestion is to slit seed (1/4 inch deep) for optimum success. I only say that because you can cheat on aerating with Nitron.
...See More
Started off as an overseed, now looking like a complete redo....
Q
Comments (19)
Pardon me Engima, but seeing as how zoysia is considered a southern grass, what made you think it would do well in southern Pennsylvania. I am aware that your area might be considered a "transitional" zone....meaning areas across the country from the coast westward enclosing the states of W.Va, Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee.....that area, can use a warm season and/or a cool season type grass, even combining them where thought viable. But, being a warm-season grass, what made you think zoysia would be the grass for you. The attributes of that grass aside, like how it is able to stand up to drought, that ability would only apply if your area of Pa did not receive adequate rainfall. I don't think that applies. So why zoysia. You quoted three varieties of Kentucky Bluegrass. Was this recommended by someone in the know. My own thinking on what makes a good grass (and a good lawn) is to plant for whatever nature throws at you in the area you reside. In northern zones thus, a combo of K.B., with added fescue and ryegrass is considered a good idea. Each gives its best when situations arrive. Fescue is good for shade, kentucky blue for sun, ryegrass for standing up to rough treatment such as heavy traffic. To depend on one type of grass has its own set of rules. If something that goes against the K.B.'s happens, then you are 'up the creek' sort of. Instead of believing tha Lowes or Home Depot does not stock good quality grasses, why not speak to a nurseryman about what grasses do well for a home's lawn in your vicinity. Then compare what they have and whether you can buy that particular blend (or not a blend) in the other stores. Usually, one person has a bad experience with what has been bought at the box store, and then makes a most definite opinion that the stores only stock poor grades of grasses. Stores don't usually go out of their way to sell to patrons that which will not invite them back again. Stores deal with suppliers....the same as how some nurseries do. Grass, for the most part, depends on how it is taken care of. There are, however, good quality seeds as well as poor ones. The quick grasses do not usually stand up well to heat of summer or drought that happens irregularly. The good quality grasses can take the heat of the kitchen and bounce back when conditions get better. The other stuff dies quickly. So whatever grass you do buy, buy the best you can afford. Grass can be encouraged to be lusher and thereby stand up to adversity when it happens. But grass will not grow if the soil does not welcome it. So enrich your soil, make the grass want to stick around. Every fall, put a 1/2" - 1" layer of compost or good topsoil over the lawn. Do an overseeding, whether you believe the lawn needs it or not. The more lush you make the lawn, the better it can put up with what can attack it...including grubs. But grubs pretty soon will be going south (deeper) for the winter. The time to take up with them is in the spring when the larvae from this season's population come up for air. In the spring, put a layer 1/2" - 1" of compost (or good topsoil) over the lawn and let it grow up through it. Do this early, as soon as the frost has left the ground. The fall/spring ritual of putting down this layer of topsoil should be considered one of the things to do EVERY YEAR. Winter takes a lot out a lawn..so whatever you can do to enrich the soil the better your lawn will grow. Fertilize regularly---but not too often. Fertilizer can feed the soil and what grows in it.....but do it too much and it will cause short stubby roots, over nitrogenize and otherwise cause poor growth instead of pushing it. It does appear you have a job to do to change over your zoysia to something else....and you may be not making a good choice of change. I'm curious what your neighbors have done --is everybody in your neighborhood growing zoysia and what is their thinking of it. Reading about it, it does appear it has a lot going for it....and a lot not going for it. Generally it is for more southern areas....not particularly suited for where the snow flies.
...See More
Dallisgrass!! Help!
Q
Comments (9)
Hi All, thanks for the feedback. The yard is approximately 2,000 sq ft (in the front) which is what I am focused on right now. It's now mid-August and I have definitely had to change up strategies a bit over the course of the summer. I did end up buying the Revolver to use with the Celcius and it did kill (a few) patches of the dallisgrass. BUT, there were also a LOT of patches that came back with a vengeance. I think some of it even waved at me as I walked by with my sprayer. Ha! So by early July, I started encouraging the Bermudagrass like crazy. I was adamant at first that I did NOT want Bermudagrass, but after some extensive research, I realized that is the only thing I have a chance of growing in the full-sun, dead-heat of our NC summers. Plus, that was pretty much the base of the yard and it's aggressive as $#@! so I just decided, "If you can't beat them, join them." So, I put down two entire bags of Milorganite over the 4th holiday. Then by mid-July, I could really see the new dallisgrass poking its ugly head through so.....I hit it HARD with glyphosate. No more cat and mouse game. Then I watered like crazy and a week later hit it again. Then watered like crazy and two weeks later....I hit it AGAIN! Now, it's almost completely dead. I have giant patches of muddy brown mush in my front yard, but I don't care because that stuff had to die. I feel like I still have two solid months of continuous growing season left for the Bermudagrass to take over, so I'm hoping it can spread out and at least produce a base for next season. But I have ordered Prodiamine for the winter weeds and I also have a spring pre-emergent ready to go in early March next year (crabgrass, etc.) We shall see I guess? This year has turned into a bit of a bust because I was really hoping to not have to kill giant patches of yard, but this dallisgrass is relentless. If you leave any sign of life, it comes back even worse! I have been told not to overseed Bermudagrass with additional Bermuda because it will almost never be the same texture of your current (common) grass and will end up looking like another giant patch of weeds. So I am literally just waiting this out to let the current grass take over. It's crazy because I filled in two patches of holes with potting soil (where I dug a few of the weeds out), and placed some "runners" of Bermuda into the soil and two days later.....it had started to take root in the potting soil! I'm telling you, if any grass has a chance to choke out weeds and take over a yard....it appears to be Bermuda! (You can see the runners in the pic!) *And a few extra residual weeds...ugh!*
...See More
texas_weed
8 years ago
Will TTTF (cool season) be able to out-compete dallisgrass in the heat of summer (mowed at 3" and watered 1" once a week)?

No way, not even Bermuda can compete with a Dallisgrass outbreak. Dallisgrass is extremely aggressive and grows extremely fast. It grows an inch or more per day and goes to seed in 3 or 4 days.

You need to do some homework on Dallisgrass control. What is really going to be difficult is Dallisgrass is a prolific seed producer. So if you have an infestation you have millions of seeds on the ground just waiting for some water and soil contact to get growing. Only way to control that is with a Pre-Emergence herbicide. Guess what? If you plan to seed a lawn you cannot use a Pre-Emergence herbicide.
MichaelWilliams
Original Author
8 years ago
From UC Davis IPM Website
"Dallisgrass seeds usually germinate in spring and summer when soil temperatures are in the 60ÃÂ° to 65ÃÂ°F range and grow to form new clumps. The optimum air temperature range for growth is 80ÃÂ° to 90ÃÂ°F and when temperatures are in this range, plants grow very rapidly. It tolerates both sandy and heavy clay soils and, once established, is drought-resistant and frost-tolerant. It responds to nitrogen fertilizer and competes well against turfgrasses in fertilized sites.

Chemical Control
Use the nonselective herbicide glyphosate (Roundup) to control dallisgrass in turf. Glyphosate kills both the dallisgrass and the turfgrass, leaving an area of dead turf. To keep the turf vigorous and growing well enough to out compete germinating dallisgrass seed, the spot needs to be overseeded or a preemergent herbicide needs to be applied. Sometimes dallisgrass is not entirely killed after an herbicide treatment, even though the turf is severely damaged or killed, and retreatment may be required."

My plan is to use 3 applications of roundup while it is still hot and Dallisgrass is actively growing. I am hoping that watering daily will encourage the seeds already in the lawn to sprout and they can be killed with the established plants. I think late Sept early Oct will be cool enough that Dallisgrass won't germinate, but the tall fescue (or whatever grass I decide on) will have time to establish before winter.

In early spring I will put down a pre-emergent and a organic fertilizer, not fertilize in the late spring or summer, then use organic fertilizer early, and late fall. Of course mow at 3" and water 1" once a week.

Will that be enough to control dallisgrass, with a small amount of hand weeding?

Any ideas on what grass I should use in plumas lake 95961?
TTTF? Something else? Yard gets full sun. The soil is not that great, top 2 to 3 inches is good but then its pretty much clay. Thanks for the help.
dchall_san_antonio
8 years ago
I would mix 10% Kentucky bluegrass seed in with any fescues you decide upon. Fescue will not spread to fill in thin areas like Kentucky bluegrass will. If you come into spring with thin grass, anything could happen. KBG gets more dense by itself without annual reseeding.

Also I would tend toward early September in your area. Start after the summer heat breaks and the evenings cool off.
MichaelWilliams
Original Author
8 years ago
Will KBG survive here? I live about 30 miles North of Sacramento. About 15-20 days above 100 F every summer and almost every day above 90 from late may to early september.

I emailed my cooperative extension and they advised against KBG for our area (they did however suggest watering TTTF 3 or 4 times a week so not sure how reliable their advice is...)

Any thoughts on cultivar for TTTF?
Tiemco seems to favor bullseye. It has good ratings in the 2 CA trials on ntep. they are both in zone 9 but both in so cal.
You (dchall) have advised others on using marathon in CA but it is not part of ntep trial. It looks like it did very well in ntep in early 90's is it still a good choice?
I used Jonathan Green black beauty last year in the back. It looks ok but I have had lots of weed issues. That is probably my fault, I thought I knew better so I rototilled. The Bermuda grass I had there is reasonably controlled but I had lots of broadleaf.
Any thoughts on varieties are appreciated
Pics of back lawn

Thank You
MIKE

This post was edited by MichaelWilliams on Tue, Jul 23, 13 at 16:01
MichaelWilliams
Original Author
8 years ago
An update and more questions.

Here are a couple pictures of my lawn currently.

Sprayed roundup Monday morning (8/5) everything seems to be dying nicely :) About 1/3 of the dallisgrass is dying it will need more applications to kill it all but i expected that.

I am planning to spray baby shampoo because I don't think enough water was soaking in. It is on a slope and runoff occurs at about 4 minutes. I was watering 8 times at 4 minutes each with 30 minute rest between watering. Can baby shampoo can be sprayed now and just before seeding with no ill effect?

I am also going to lay down rabbit pellets or cracked corn (whatever my feed store has cheap) now and at seeding. I assume that won't be a problem either. Should I still use synthetic starter fertilizer at seeding, or will that be enough.

Thanks for your help (sorry if starting multiple threads is bad form I will stick to this one)

Here is a link that might be useful: More pics of Front Yard
MichaelWilliams
Original Author
8 years ago
This is a core sample of the soil. It is about 1" diameter. The lighter brown part on the bottom feels like clay or play dough.
MichaelWilliams
Original Author
8 years ago
Does anyone have an opinion on Touche' KBG? I'm ordering from Hogan and it seems like it is the cultivar that would work best with TTTF in 95961. It is mid-atlantic type so it should do better with heat.
The TTTF cultivars I plan to get are Bullseye, Cochise IV, and Falcon V.
Backups are Hemi, and Turbo for TTTF, and Apollo for KGB.
Please let me know if there are any in that group that I should avoid.
Thank you.
mike
MichaelWilliams
Original Author
8 years ago
More follow up...
On 8/11 I shampooed my dead lawn. It looked terrible, but it smelled like lavender! I ended up using about 5 oz on 1000 sq/ft. I don't have a hose end sprayer so i used the 2 gallon pump sprayer that I used for roundup. Miscalculated, but you guys say that too much wont hurt.

8/13 sprayed roundup again. Was planing to just spot spray but there was still green spots pretty much everywhere so ended up spraying the whole yard again.

8/14 put down Purina rabbit chow. The feed store thought I was crazy. Told me I'd get lots of rabbits in the lawn. Haven't seen one yet though :) It cost $20 for 50#. Later I found a place that has it for $13. My handheld spreader did an awful job of spreading it so I ended up spreading it by hand. I put down about 40# per sq/ft. (I don't seem to be good at estimating application rates) Because it put it on so heavy the 50# bag that was supposed to cover the front and back lawns only covered the front and a small section in the back. Now it is an experiment. I'll see how the section that did get it does in comparison. (After I did this i read it is not a great idea to fertilize right before or when you overseed, you don't want the old grass growing too fast and shading the seedlings. I guess not fertilizing may end up being a good thing)

8/21 - 8/26 Mowing on the lowest setting. I have had to rake the lawn to get the dead grass to stand up enough to be mowed. Lots of work. I've been working 1 to 1.5 hours in the morning each day.

Below is a picture of the section in the back yard that got the rabbit pellets. The section that is the width of the shed back toward the camera. That is the worst section of the yard so we will see how it goes.
l_w_davis
8 years ago
i have a dallisgrass problem in my bermuda.

im just going to dig out what i have (eventually) and put down new sod
MichaelWilliams
Original Author
8 years ago
Quick question. What is the difference between sod quality and non sod quality seed? I just got my seed from Hogan Company and the label says it is not sod quality, but it has 0% weed and 0% other crop. Is there something special about sod quality?

The Hogan Company was great BTW put together a small mix of 6# bullseye 5# cochise IV and 5# falcon V. even offered to mix it up for me. Dealt with Steven. Very helpful. Highly recommend them.

Just a little more prep over the weekend and I will be ready to plant Monday morning.
grass1950
8 years ago
Seed comes with one of three colored labels. White, blue or gold (from lower to sod quality). Subject to different state requirements, white can be no less than 90% purity, blue 95% and gold 96-98%. The allowable crop and weed amounts become more restrictive also and I believe Washington State allows no poa annua or triv in sod quality seed. Don't quote me, but I also believe the sampling amount for sod quality certification is also larger. Other than that, I'm clueless.:)
MichaelWilliams
Original Author
8 years ago
I planted the grass on labor day (9/2)

I had planed to spray Roundup around Friday, but I was sick so I didn't get to. The instructions on the bottle (actually the home depot brand glyphosate) said wait 7 days before planting grass. I've heard you can plant the same day, but figured I'd follow the label directions so I wasn't breaking the law ;)

I used my weed dragon flamer to kill the weeds that had already sprouted (pic in link below) There is quite a bit of yellow nutsedge that the flamer didn't kill, so I guess I'll be pulling that out by hand in the spring. There was some sedge in the yard before I started but not bad. All this watering is really bringing it up.

After using the flamer (which really is a lot of fun I recommend getting one, It's great for killing weeds in beds or walkways without using chemicals) I scratched the surface of the soil with a metal rake. Next put down 5# Pennington starter fertilizer that was left over from last year.

I used 20# of chicken feed as organic fertilizer. It spread out of the handheld spreader because it was much smaller. Protein content is 19%. It cost $16.50 at tractor supply. No tax in CA on animal feed :)

Finally spread the grass seed. 9# on the 1000 sq ft.

Last I used a 1/2 filled lawn roller to get good contact with the soil. There is a lot of dead grass still to I went over everything at least 3 times to get all the seed to the ground.

Then I napped.

This is a pic of how it looks after it was seeded.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pics of front yard
MichaelWilliams
Original Author
8 years ago
Next time I start thinking I know better than the advice here I am going to slap myself.

Really wish I would have used roundup before I put down the seed. I now have 2 problems. First is Yellow Nutsedge. It is growing happy as can be; no memory at all of being nearly burned alive 6 days ago. Second problem is moss.

Both of these were present but seemed like small issues when I seeded Monday. I figured flaming would take care of them, but both have gone into overdrive with the addition of the starter fertilizer.

My question is should i do anything about these issues or just let them be and take care of them when the grass is established?

Moss:
MichaelWilliams
Original Author
8 years ago
As I don't seem to be clever enough to put more than one picture per post, here is the Yellow Nutsedge:
dchall_san_antonio
8 years ago
OMG!! Now we need to see the guaranteed analysis of your chicken feed. Not every animal feed is appropriate for your lawn. Only products where the seed is fully ground up should be used. Cracked corn always has intact corn seed in it, but with corn, one mowing and it does. Other weeds are not so benevolent. Chicken feed is quite often made up of intact seeds from a bazillion different kinds of weeds. It never makes any different when actual chickens are eating it, because they eat it all. But when you put it in your lawn, you might end up with anything.

Other than that, when you see recommendations to never use a fertilizer when [fill in your activity], they are always talking about chemical fertilizers. I can't think of a time when using organic fertilizer would be inappropriate. Plus it takes 3 weeks before you see any results from organic fertilizer.
MichaelWilliams
Original Author
8 years ago
I did use chemical fertilizer. I had ~ 5# pennington starter fertilizer leftover from the back yard last year that I put down. I also used rabbit pellets at 40# per 1000 sq ft on 8/14 (three weeks ago) Figured I'd time everything so the fertilizer kicked in right when I planted.

The chicken feed is not "bird seed" it is grain based. Hopefully there aren't a bunch of seed in it. The label is below. I was buying feed for my chickens and thought "this stuff would be a lot easier to spread"

From this project I have learned when In think "Hey, I bet this would be... beter... easier.. faster... whatever" someone has probably already tried it and figured out why its a bad idea. Trust experts.

Feed Label:
MichaelWilliams
Original Author
8 years ago
Actual chicken feed:
dchall_san_antonio
8 years ago
Whew! Dodged that bullet. I was not so lucky with my experiment with hog feed. It looked like parrot food. It was all seeds.
MichaelWilliams
Original Author
8 years ago
Well my crop of sedge is progressing quite nicely. There is a little bit of tall fescue growing below it though. :)
MichaelWilliams
Original Author
8 years ago
This section is growing (actual grass) the best. I think it gets too much water though. The neighbors sprinklers run off through this section. The "lawn" was always thick here but it was a different type of grass. I don't know what it was but when I was raking up the dead stuff for the renovation I found that it had runners. Didn't bother figuring it out, cuz it was already dead.
MichaelWilliams
Original Author
8 years ago
This was the best section of lawn. This grass was thick and almost entirely TTTF. I don't think this section died when the house was empty for a year. The neighbors sprinklers kept it alive.
The new grass here is coming in pretty well. Some sedge, but not too bad.
MichaelWilliams
Original Author
8 years ago
Two problem areas.
In the middle of the picture on left edge is the section that had moss growing. Ended up not being a problem at all. Grass is growing great there.
The bottom of the picture shows a section where I added some generic "topsoil" sold in 1 cu/ft bags at Walmart. This was a low spot. The "topsoil" was drying out and nothing was germinating there. Wednesday evening I added some more seed and covered it somewhat with straw to help retain moisture. Still nothing growing, but it's only been 2 days.

Here is a link that might be useful: Larger versions of all pics
dchall_san_antonio
8 years ago
There are two kinds of sedge you need to be concerned about. Nutsedge (nut grass) is one of them. It is a swamp type plant that practically requires continual moisture. Deprive it of continual moisture and it seems to go away by itself. I've had several infestations following some calamity in my lawn. I've done nothing and it goes away. The only thing I can think of is the lack of water from my infrequent watering habit. I've seen nutsedge growing on a high spot in a river. Once your grass is in and you go to deep, infrequent watering, the nutgrass may go away. Give it until next June and then do something about it.

The other sedge is green kyllinga. It looks just like nutsedge until it goes to seed. Green kyllinga will grow in very dry soil. My neighbors have some on a side of their house which has not received any water in 20 years other than rain. While it can stand the dry soil, it is only growing up against their house on the west side, so possibly it cannot stand a full day of sun.
MichaelWilliams
Original Author
8 years ago
This was from 9/19. Shows the progress of the sedge lawn :)
MichaelWilliams
Original Author
8 years ago
another from 9/19. Growing pretty well but does have some grassy weeds. What are they?
MichaelWilliams
Original Author
8 years ago
Closer pic of grssy weed. PLEASE don't be Dallisgrass. Has anyone ever prayed that the weed in their lawn was crabgrass?
MichaelWilliams
Original Author
8 years ago
Pic from this morning. 9-27. 3 weeks and 4 days from planting.

Ended up using the weedeater to chop down the sedge. Cant wait for winter to kill it all. Grass looks pretty good under it though.

The section at the top of the hill I don't think was getting enough water. I changed my sprinklers to MP rotators on Monday. Hopefully that will water more evenly. The wife wants me to put more seed down in those areas but I am pretty sure the seed that is already there is still good. Thoughts?