You said "The soil is really rich in OM,"

And that's the reason the trees are sinking. the OM is decomposing.

For future reference, don't add OM to the soil. Instead, add it as mulch on the surface of the ground.

The trees are planted in their pemanent location now for 10 months.

>>I received info from my nursery to leave about 1-2" of exposed rootstock on the soil surface for planting. Normally apples are not planted in rich soils...

I have a hard time understanding why your trees sink? You must have
altered the ground with tons of OM? If you did, then your apples will
suffer, perhaps transplant to poorer ground when trees still small.

Trees also sink when they are planted in holes that are dug too deep- this is why current advice is to dig no deeper than the root ball. Wide holes are often beneficial if soil is at all compacted but you should only make deeper holes when the soil requires a pick to break up. If you do break up lower soil stomp the soil back down with all your strength to the proper depth before planting.

This is puzzling. I've had plantings where the top has settled, and I can just topdress the surface with a little more soil. But I can't remember an instance where the entire rootball sinks.

That must have been some pretty loose soil.

harvestman is correct in the cause of the problem. The solution is to dig and reset. Of course it is work, but it will be even more work, the longer it is delayed. Al

Sorry I have to ask something here that may be obvious to other people. I understand that the scion wood will root in current situation and tree will grow large. Basically you lose the benefit of the rootstock. But the tree is not going to suffer, right? It will be a lot of pruning for OP to keep it under control. But are there any other drawbacks that I may be missing?

Yes, you lose the benefits of the rootstock. Foremost being the tree will revert to it's natural size and vigor. Remember also that the rootstock has been selected for disease, drought and pest resistance. And they are adapted to different soil types. Whereas the scion's root is of little concern to the apple breeder, and may be completely unsuitable.

Its a little more sever problem than just losing the benefit of the rootstock. The scion will eventually start decaying at the graft union. Given the description the process may have already started. As the rot progresses it can and will rot past any new roots that may grow out of the scion. In the end these trees will die if they are not replanted properly.

I don't know if it applies in this case, but you can't just throw the dirt back into the hole when planting bare roots.

The dirt must be worked in among the roots and tapped down to firm it. This is done in small layers, to make sure that all the roots are well covered and the dirt has been firmed.

Then the whole thing is given a deep soak to settle the dirt, and the dirt is topped off, if necessary, after the soaking.

I try to set my trees at the same depth they were grown at the nursery. Some arrive with the grafts higher, some lower.

My trees are all in basins, so a close watch is kept that soil from the rim doesn't flow down into the bottom of the basin and build up higher around the trunk.

Thisisme:
Have you actually seen this? in what soil types?
It is common practice in northern areas when planting on seedling stock to bury the graft and encourage scion rooting. I have seen many trees 15+ years old with no signs of the type of damage you describe.
I also know folks who will intentionally plant trees on semidwarf rootstock with graft just at or below soil to get some scion rooting. The trees certainly lose some of the dwarfing nature, but do not seem to return to full seedling vigor. And I believe many of the desirable characteristics of the original rootstock may be retained.
I have heard several reasons for doing this: simply not being able to get the cultivar they want in a more vigorous stock or attempting to protect a rootstock they may be too tender for the climate .

The soil was soft with a lot of OM. And when it was planted earlier in the year it was a little low but only about an inch. I did not help matters later on when I brought more manure into garden. So I did make a mistake. But the inital mistake was only leaving an inch or two of exposed rootstock where I should have left 6 inches. Even though my soil is rich in OM....and by rich 15% OM, had it tested. I doubt I will lose the rootstock into the ground if I eradicate any more OM incorporation into soil and plant high. If the soil breaks down over time it will not sink the rootstock of the tree will it?
You should be seeing exposed roots if I'm correct.

windfall rob, are you asking if I have seen trees damaged because they were planted too deep. Yes I have and yes it is common. kokos 1st post is a classic description of how it starts. Planting a grafted tree with the graft at or below the soil line is just asking for trouble. The graft will eventually fail. Planting like this invites crown rot and collar rot and damage to the graft which appears to have already started. Typically the tree will live 3-8 years looking healthy except for the graft union. As years go by it will affect the leaves and the size of fruit. At some point the tree dies. A tree can rot from the inside out and look healthy for a long time.

Go ahead and plant all your trees like this if you like. However in 3-10 years you will be replacing most if not all of them.

I hear you. I am getting B118 Galarina's tomorrow. I will be planting them with 6 inches of exposed rootstock.
The graft union is not showing damage but the rootstock part is showing fisures, cracks and a rouph appearance. The part that was burried in the soil that is. The top 2 inches that were exposed on the MM106 look flawless, then when you dig down, you see splits, cracks, e.t.c.
I will post photos.

What do you do with MM111 in my situation, and my soil?
If I leave 2 inches of exposed rootstock with MM111 as you are suppose too, is that not planting too low too?
The nursery I am buying the MM111's say's: "no more than 1-2" of rootstock exposed on soil surface with MM111"

But judging from the reply's here, more is needed.

kokos I feel for you. I have purchased trees from online nurseries with really short main stems on their rootstocks which made it almost impossible to plant properly. M111 is not as susceptible but can still have problems. If the graft is 2" or more off the ground just try not to get it wet when you water and it should be ok. This is the chief reason why you are not supposed to water at the trunk even when a tree is planted properly. It can happen to any tree if the graft is getting wet. If the graft union is planted below soil level it just makes it much more likely to develop problems. Its not hard to see why. If the graft unions in below soil level each time it gets wet it stays wet longer increasing the likelihood that it will be infected by molds, funguses and spores that start the rotting process.

Don't worry. Just keep planting till you get it right.

I screw up left and right. I hope to know what I'm doing (half-ass) by 2013 - 2015.

I got to pull out all my apples. Loads of disease. I got to replace them with disease resistant trees.

My neighbours I'm going to think I'm crazy if I dig the trees out and replant.
I'm so depressed. It's my fault for adding so much OM into my soil.

I forgot to tell you all of something that shows MM106, M26& G16 Rootstock's sensitivity to moisture.
I had 3 pots of equal size & planted 1 Honeycrisp on MM106, 1 on M26, 1 on G16 and left the graft union exposed with 4 inches of rootstock. I had them planted in pure Cedar mulch and barely watered them, they were taken care of by rainfall. At no time was the cedar mulch soggy or extremely wet. Now in the fall I removed them from these pots and the only one who's rootstock was kind of girdling, slightly wasting away was MM106. All others were flawless, meaning very smooth finish on the rootstock appearance. MM106 must be exposed to the fullest in my opinion.....you should just barely plant 2 inches of this rootstock in the ground.

What I'm doing is making a bowl around the tree to keep graft union exposed and 3 inches of rootstock, at all time!
If I go expose any more lower down on the rootstock there are roots there.

The roots are creamy white though and really tough!

kokos:

I've planted and replanted the same tree as many as three times in one spring. And have often replanted the second spring. I've hardly been able to tell any affect on the tree or vine. One year I planted a Flame grape in three spots before I got it right. For a while it just sat there and I thought I'd killed it. Eventually it took off and outgrew the others by fall.

I'd absolutely dig them up and get them higher rather than fight with a basin around the base of the tree forever. And I'm telling you that if you even keep one main root intact on one side you'll never know the difference in growth.

I'm skeptical about all this talk of deep planted trees dying like flies. Think of a seedling apple tree when it comes up. The part right below ground isn't any different than the part right above ground. The seed could have been planted shallower or deeper. But the tree goes right on no matter. And seedling apples have all kinds of genetic makeup. They haven't been selected as rootstocks. But that's all that was used 100 yrs ago. Apples on seedling have a reputation for being very tough and long lived.

Also what you are seeing on the 106 rootstock is probably normal. It's not going to be as smooth as a babies behind.

Maybe you guys have way more root rot than me. I am in a dry climate. But I've never lost an apple from any kind of rot.

Kokos,
Don't worry about what your nieghbors think! If you feel you should replnt the trees just do it. Although if they are showing significant damage to the bark at this young age you may be better off with replacements anyhow.
Thisisme,
I asked about your personal experience with the issue in an effort to understand if you were repeating something you had been told or had seen the damage first hand. As I said it is common practice and recommended/suggested by several reputable northern nurseries. If it were the automatic death sentence you imply I find that suprising. I spent a little bit of time researching and could find no references to the effects on the tree's longevity you describe, only vigor. There was one refernece to deeply planted stone fruits having trouble but it was in connection with wetter soils and low oxygen.
I am not suggesting someone sink a tree 8-10" below where it grew in a nursery bed. Only that scion rooting is not inherently harmful to the tree. Admitidly my own experience goes back only 10 years, some trees I have set with graft below grade others not.
You also imply that the graft union is more susceptible to fungal attack. I don't see why this would be true if the tree has grown over the intial callus. I am happy to be corrected if you can point me to information saying otherwise.

Kokos, I just received some peach trees from Starks with "maybe" an inch and a half of root stock before the graft union. Straight from the tree factory that way. They're in the ground in a bowl with half an inch to one inch of root stock above ground. Last year I had a few more that way...all are doing fine.

It's not uncommon in northern areas bury the graft union.

Many times the scion portion of the bark will differentiate itself into root cells.

I used to plant all my trees w/ the graft below grade to try to encourage scion rooting. Some trees would root out, others not(i.e. peach). While checking to see if the scion rooted, I never noticed any problem w/ trunk rot.

The disadvantage to planting the scion below grade is that it gets the root mass deeper in the soil and can more easily drown the tree if the water table is high. The other problem is that trees planted too deep are more prone to "wallow out" in windy areas.

windfall rob I have three trees suffering with short scions suffering from this issue. I don't know where you have been looking but in a quick search everything I find from major Universities contradicts what you have said. Not wanting to be exhaustive because there are literally tens if thousands of links that agree with what I have said I will simply post the very first one at the top of the list in my google search. I could not find one major University Agricultural department that agreed with your notion of how to plant a tree.

Here is the opening paragraph from The University of California Agricultural and Natural Resources Department.

"Several species of soilborne pathogens in the genus Phytophthora cause crown and root rot diseases of herbaceous and woody plants. Almost all fruit and nut trees, as well as most ornamental trees and shrubs (including many California natives), can develop Phytophthora rot if soil around the base of the plant remains wet for prolonged periods, or when planted too deeply......"

Here is a link that might be useful: University of California Agricultural and Natural Resources Department

olpea I have watched videos from the UC Davis AG Departments Master Gardener program that disagree with you. In the video they say trees can appear healthy from the outside while the cambium layer in intact but be totally rotten on the inside. All the literature I have found says to plant with the graft above the soil and rot is the reason given. Can you site one University's AG department that recommends planting a tree with scion below soil level?

fruitnut trees grown from seed do not have a graft union to worry about. Not sure what they could have to do with this conversation.

Thisisme,
I followed that link and there is only single sentence regarding planting depth with no mention of graft union. I Initially asked you about soil conditions because that is widely accepted as the primary cause of collar/root rot, as clearly stated in the link you provided.

As I understand it, rootstock is often generated by stooling and then burying the shoots...which is basically burial of stem to induce rooting...

Heart rot (which is quite distinct from collar rot) does not really harm a tree except structurally. Plenty of old hollow apples will attest to this. Heartwood is "dead" tissue. Cambium and to a lesser extent sapwood are what count.

Again, all the reading I find on graft relative to soil refers to scion rooting as the concern. If you have to sink the tree really deep to get the graft under then sure you are likely to have issues with the root system, but if you droping the tree 1-2 inches in reasonable soils....I really doubt it. And I have been clearly told by folks like Jim Cummins (who knows a little something about rootstock) that it is of no concern for the tree's health.

But I am on this site to learn and will look around some more...No need to be exhaustive but if you can provide a link that focuses on this particular issue that would be great.
Also, please tell me why you think the upper portion of a rootstock is inherently different from the lower portion of the scion in terms of its ability to be in soil contact. Both are young, above-ground shoot growth? And why the graft itself is particularly vulnerable?

windfall rob how many more sentences does it take or how much more clear does it need to be?

"or when planted too deeply"

How about this. You show me even one link to major university AG department that backs you up. Or how about this. You agree that if I can show you another major University AG department that backs me up you agree you are wrong. That one is easy.

what's all the big fuss about? A good portion of my orchard has the graft union below the soil level, it hasn't caused any harm, on the contrary, I have wonderfully vigorous trees. Most often the scion just roots above the graft.

The reason for this is that I've been mulching every year, and slowly, the soil has increased by a good 6-12 inches. It's interesting to see the trees that have rooted above the graft union, they are the healthiest trees I have.

axel sc do as you please. But can you show me one major University AG department that says to do it that way or that its even ok to do it that way?

Ok. After reading the posts, my personal conclusion is there are no absolutes in this case.

First, the planting depth and the graft location are separate issue. Putting the graft location below ground does not mean the tree is planted too deep. I can see trees with short rootstock, low graft point thatâÂÂs in ground but planted shallower while trees with long rootstock, high graft point thatâÂÂs above ground but planted deeper. From the water drowning point of view, the overall planting depth is really what matters and should be determined by how deep the hole is, drainage, water table, etc.

Now rootstocks are selected to offer better characteristics such as adaptability, disease resistance, etc. So if you picked a particular rootstock, I assume you would prefer that than the root of the scion wood. In that case, I would say you should try to keep the graft point above ground to keep it from rooting. On the other hand, if you donâÂÂt have choice on the rootstock, or you donâÂÂt care about the particular characteristics of it, or you prefer the scion to root, I can see that burying the graft location is not a bad choice.

Finally, the question about whether the graft point offers an easy entry point for soil born disease such as rot. I can see it argued both ways. On one hand, a well done graft thatâÂÂs healed completely should not be much different than any other location on the stem/root. On the other hand, a weak graft with a lot of dead tissue may very well be the weak point. There may not be generic conclusion about this issue.

tc88 I don't know about that. Most sites assume the nursery did it right and say to plant at the same depth it was previously planted. Many others simply go for whats important and say the graft has to be such and such distance above the soil.

I could list lots and lots of them but no one would read them.

Home Orchard Society

"3. Placing tree in planting hole.
Place the tree in the planting hole and hold it so that the graft is at least six inches above the soil line. Now add subsoil (if present) to a level that allows the graft to be at least 6 inches above the soil line. Next add the top soil to the hole. Do Not Fertilize!"

If it does not really matter why say it like that? Also if its ok to plant it deeper why does no one say so on any reputable site?

Here is a link that might be useful: Home Orchard Society How to Plant a Fruit Tree

If I were a nursery, I would say the same thing. If someone buys a tree from me, the default assumption is that he's buying the whole scion/rootstock package in the way it's grown currently. However, if the customer has different idea in mind, wants to grow differently and knows what he's doing, there is nothing wrong for him to take the current package and grow it differently.

Take your "Do Not Fertilize" example. That's the default suggestion. But if I know what to fertilize, how to fertilize, I may very well fertilize it during planting and come out ahead because of it.

An analogy will be a bake at home pizza. There will be a default instruction about how to bake it. But if the customer knows how his taste differs, and how to achieve it by lower/higher temperature/time, no one can say how he's baking is wrong.

I noticed this thread was getting lots of attention so I thought I'd chime in on some of what's being discussed.

First, all scion rooting is not equal. If a tree is already fruiting and the scion begins rooting after years of mulching and raising the soil level you are unlikely to have a big surge in vegetative growth because the tree is locked into fruiting mode.

Some clones will not readily root anyway and some are such fruit poppers (like Goldrush) I doubt scion rooting would ever create an excessively vegetative tree anyway. On the other side of this are clones like Northern Spy who would more likely create problems if allowed to scion root. NS roots easily and takes forever to fruit on its own roots.

I agree that burying apple roots deeper than they were at the nursery is unlikely to be very harmful when the tree is a one year plant. Most of the root growth of such trees comes from brand new roots just below the collar anyway (or just below where the soil meets the rootstock), so as long as you don't plant it below the graft union an apple will probably not be damaged by deep planting.

In Canada, commercial orchards sometimes reduce new apple trees root systems into carrots to make mechanical planting easier without experiencing significant reduction in first year growth. To me this means that planting trees with high grafts deeper than they were in the nursery will make little difference.

Thisisme,

After I posted, I remembered I did have one apple tree that seemed to have some trunk rot. I've lost lots of other trees to drowning, and most of the time taken a knife to the trunk. In the other cases the dead roots were the cause of death.

My disagreement w/ your point is fairly superficial. I agree trees planted too deep can make the trunk more susc. to phytophthora. But, broadly speaking, it doesn't seem to occur often enough to rise to the level of concern justified in this thread. I respect your experiences with this issue, but while not an anomaly, I don't believe trunk death from planting the scion below grade is common.

Although my generalizations above don't come from university literature, I've read numerous testimonies from people who have planted their trees w/ the scion below grade and experienced no pyhtophthora rot. I've been a member over on the Nafex forum for years, and read just about all the posts in the archive (going back about 10 years-thousands of posts) and read many discussions on this topic. Additionally, the owner of the owner of a popular nursery advised me to plant the scion below grade if I wanted the scion to root out. He had numerous trees is his own orchard that had rooted out w/ no problems.

I'm sure I couldn't find any universities suggesting planting the graft below grade. I doubt any university is going to recommend planting the scion below grade because of the other problems mentioned. However, that doesn't mean trees will automatically die if they are planted w/ the scion below ground.

I think widespread phytophthora problems are pretty site specific.

Olpea I have a lot of respect for guys like you and harvestman. I'm not saying every tree planted below the graft will die. I'm saying no reputable University AG department recommends it and most if not all say it should not be done. Not because every tree will die. But because it increases the likelihood of disease. Major Universities have changed their view on how trees should be planted in the past. Perhaps in years to come they will come along and say planting below the graft union is acceptable in some locations under some conditions.

In my location though I'm three for three. Thats three trees planted at or below the graft and three trees with problems. At my location I won't be planting any trees deeper than the graft. I also won't be recommending anyone else plant below the graft. If I did and someone started losing trees to disease years later I would feel responsible.

If someone wants a more vigorous tree why not plant on a standard rootstock? Thats what I do. Last week I wanted to order Minnie Royal & Royal Lee cherry trees. There is only one wholesale provider for Minnie Royal & Royal Lee cherry trees. I checked with every nursery they sell to. Only one had them on a full standard rootstock (Mazzard). I placed an order with that company.

You know, I read the University reports, but in the end, the apple trees themselves don't really care if a reputable University says this or that. Obviously my trees didn't read the University reports or else they might be in trouble! The bottom line is that there is nothing wrong with burying a graft below the soil level no matter what any University might say, in most cases the scion above the graft just roots and the tree goes on growing and producing happily. That is, unless you have very poorly draining soil, in which case this practice is not recommended. If you have good draining soil, there is no chance of increased disease susceptibility. Given I have over 200 trees and not a single one has suffered, I'd say it's a pretty safe bet to say this can be done without harming the trees.

I had no intention of trying to get more vigorous trees, it was more of an accident. Because I am on a hillside with fast draining soil, I've had to plant in holes to help with watering. Over time, the holes have filled with mulch, and as the top soil levels rose, the grafts got buried. So far, most trees haven't gotten any bigger, but there are some exceptions. I can think of only two: my spigold grew to 20 feet, and my sweet September cherry has grown into an enormous 40 feet tall cherry tree.

I think most people won't plant with the graft below the soil level intentionally. Trees sink and other weird stuff happens. The bottom line is that it's not necessary to replant the trees. My trees that have rooted above the graft are incredibly healthy, so there must be some benefit.

Thisisme,
"I'm not saying every tree planted below the graft will die"

But that IS what you said at the begging of this debate,

"Go ahead and plant all your trees like this if you like. However in 3-10 years you will be replacing most if not all of them."

It was the absoluteness of that satement that presented problems for me, as it was contradictory to common practice in my region, and advice I had recieved from respected growers.

I am not interested in being "right" or "wrong" This is not my pet theory I am trying to defend, I have no personal stake in it's validity. I am interested in understanding the behavior of trees given different treatments. How we can take advantage of certain qualities; and risks to be assessed/avoided with certain practices.

"planted too deep" is a relatively useless statement. How deep is too deep..quantitatively? Are we measuring from the root flare or the graft? Graft height varies tremendously from nursery to nursery so that seems an arbitrary point, unless the graft is indeed a "weak link" for some reason...it may be but I have not seen reports of that, which is why I asked you to point me toward them.

I don't doubt your experiences, I was trying to better understand them. That's why I kept asking about the soil conditions you had seen this happen in.

Kokos,
sorry if we have drifted from your initial concerns and inquiry...this is starting to feel like bickering. I jumped in at the beginning only to say it is not absolutely necessary to replant, so long as you are willing to accept scion rooting....and your soils are reasonably well drained.

Come on Windfall, give T.I.M a break. He lost 3 of his babies and if you had that kind of experience you'd probably speak in absolute terms as well- at least I know I would.

When expert advice matches ones anecdotal experience it becomes gospel. When you play in the dirt long enough your anecdotal experience will often contradict researched information. It all keeps things interesting.

"Graft height varies tremendously from nursery to nursery." That's what I was trying to say in my earlier post. Planting depth should be measured from rootball to ground instead of graft point to ground. Planting too deep will cause rot if water table is high. But that will happen whether the graft is above or below ground.

I agree the default is to keep the graft above ground since that's the whole purpose of the rootstock. But if someone knows what he's trying to accomplish in term of an alternative outcome, it's fine for him to bury the graft point.

So the uncertain thing left is the possiblity of collar rot. T.I.M. provided some anecdotal data points which I appreciate. I'm now trying to understand how significant that issue is.

Regardless of deep planting or not, this not the problem IMO. The richness of soil is, first you're saying...

>>The soil was soft with a lot of OM.Then you're are saying..
>> It's my fault for adding so much OM into my soil.
The part of the rootstock for MM106 that has been beneath ground shows fisures, cracks and a peeling away.Deep planting in too much OM can not be good for deep planting, some trees will rot, even without OM.

Konrad

Guys I'm sorry I sounded so dogmatic. I fully realize that not much of this is an exact science yet. Plenty has changed in my lifetime as far as what we are told to do and not do when it comes to trees and plants. Like many I give trees some manure even in the first season because in my experience in the very poor soils in my location it helps them get established faster. Regardless of what any University study has ever said about.

As far as planting the graft union below the soil level my experiences have matched the current wisdom. As such I will not plant the graft union below soil level. In the end though I guess I could post link after link that agrees with me. However I am not bound by dogma and I fully realize that things change and all the Universities may one day take the exact opposite position or modify their position on the subject. We all know what nurseries and Universities have to say on the subject.

By the way my native soil is pulverized granite from ancient pyroclastic flows with nearly no organic matter whatsoever. It is fine granite dust and packs down hard. Very hard to dig in even with a pick and bar. I use a large Rotohammer with a clay bit to dig in it. The dirt turns almost to sand once its been dug up. When I dig a hole to plant a tree there appears to be no moisture in it. It just crumbles into powder. I brake with what all the studies have said over the last 25-30 years. Our Master Gardener program through the County Extension says we can add a product called Amend to the soil to increase water retention and I do.

I fully admit that sometimes Universities are wrong. We all know that all of them were wrong about how to plant trees only a few decades ago.

I still think its wrong to tell people to plant a tree with the graft below soil level. One never knows what molds and fungus may be in the soil and what it may do to the graft of a young tree.

Thisisme, you still sound dogmatic. That's ok, nothing wrong with being passionate about gardening.

A good rule of thumb with gardening is break all the rules! That's part of the fun, trying things out. Making mistakes is a great way to learn and to make new discoveries.

We can then pass along our discoveries, but it's best to do it in a light way - let other people choose for themselves if they want to heed your advice or not.

I'm glad I started working the dirt before the age of the internet. My college experience in my youth was as a student of classical flute in a conservatory, so I had no schooling in hort.

By the time I seriously began an academic study of horticulture I already had years of experience caring for many plant species- mostly edible ones.

The experience of having to solve problems without a lot of reliable outside info helps develop ones diagnostic abilities but even more importantly you learn ahead of time that researched info simply doesn't apply to all situations.

By the time I learned the "right" way to do things I'd already had plenty of success doing things the wrong ways, often inexplicable success when stacked up against conventional wisdom and research. Of course, I also made plenty of mistakes that could have easily been avoided if I had the right info.

Once a graft union is completely healed, I doubt the tissue is any more susceptible to infection than the root collar of a similar seedling tree.

The gradual rise of the soil line is a natural occurance to which trees would seem to have evolved to survive. Some apples, such as Northern Spy, often have root primordia protruding in rough spots all along older wood- such wood wouldn't skip a beat if it was covered with soil.

Even sudden changes for some species would be a natural event- trees of the plains or river banks would experience sudden soil buildup on a regular basis.

In hort school I was taught to pull mulch away from the trunks of trees because it could cause rot that might girdle the tree. In the real world I see trees that are mulched right up to the trunk all the time and have been for many years. I've yet to see one that was killed by this practice. I was taught that such a practice could be lethal but nobody ever told me the odds.

The following information has been "cut and copied" out of the planting guide for St Lawrence Nurseries out of Potsdam, NY. They also have a picture of how to do this but it didn't copy:

PLANTING YOUR TREE
How deeply to set fruit trees
When planting standard size grafted fruit trees, (like ours,) it is best to encourage them to become at least partially âÂÂself-rooted,â that is, to promote rooting above the graft union. To accomplish this, you must plant grafted apples, pears, plums and cherry trees an inch or two deeper than they were in the nursery, with the graft union (near the root collar) below the ground. (See photo below.)

The graft is sometimes hard for an unpracticed eye to locate, but will look like a healed diagonal scar on the stem that resembles a "Z." What was formerly the aboveground portion (the scion) will sprout new roots, and these roots will be from the actual cultivar*, rather than from the rootstock onto which it was grafted. If the tree is ever damaged and then sends up rootsprouts from the base, these will be growing from above the graft rather than from the rootstock, and will make a new tree of the same variety. Use this recommendation only if you are planting a standard size tree, since planting a dwarf fruit tree in this manner will negate the dwarfing influence of the rootstock. (See Apples.) Our Bali cherry and Northrup mulberry are grown from tissue culture and do not have a graft union. (end of cut and copy)

St. Lawrence Nurseries grows, grafts, and sells over 150 varieties of apple trees that are grafted onto Antonovka root stock. Their target market is the very cold zones. I'm sure that they graft way more apple trees every year than any University does.

With all of the variables & differences: root stocks, skill of the grafter, healing time, climate, and soil make up: it's difficult to talk in terms of absolutes. Having 3 trees die shouldn't condemn a practice for all situations.

northernms thanks for posting that as it is at least one example of a reputable nursery recommending planting the graft below the soil line. It does appear though that they only recommend such a planting when the tree is grown on a "standard rootstock" but the point is still well taken.

Academia is rather strange as it is more money driven than most realize. Industries including wholesale orchards give grants to Universities to do studies. Those companies make money off of rootstocks and would not likely support a study that could potentially diminish their value. A researcher who would conduct such a study may not be able to find work once the study was published because the industry would not want to fund them or the University that approved the study.
I understand this which is why I held that those who do such plantings may be right regardless of what academia has to say on the subject. Such plantings would have to be dependent upon soil conditions and rootstock as some rootstocks are listed as more susceptible to disease when planted too deep. I still think making a blanket statement that there is no problem with planting any tree or any apple tree regardless of rootstock with the graft union below soil level is wrong. Any recommendation to do so should be accompanied with some qualifiers.

harvestman I would think that an older tree whose soil has raised above the graft union would have a graft that is far more protected from intrusion by water and molds and fungus. The same could not be said of your average whip or one year old tree purchased from a nursery.

Harvestman made some interesting points. My wife raised by one foot of top soil, a flower bed around an old pecan tree. The bed is secured by landscaping timbers and has been this way for at least 10 years. I told her she was gonna kill the tree....this year has been a bumper crop!

justjohn, if that had been an oak tree I suspect there would be no bumper acorn crop. We don't have native pecans here and only a few try the northern hardy clones. I guess our black walnuts are at least 2nd cousins and I think they'd take some piling on also.

I can remember predicting the demise of a couple of maples that had heavy equipment drive all over their roots and then soil piled on. I was confident they'd be dead in a year or 2 but it's been almost 20 and the trees thrive. Obviously different species react differently- I've seen several oak trees die on different sites under the same punishment.

I have seen semi-mature conifers (Hemlocks specifically) get pretty unhappy when 4-10" of soil gets piled up on them. I had always sort of assumed most mature trees wouldn't like that, thinking the trunk tissue had differentiated too much for too long. But it sounds like it really varies from species to species

Separately,
I just received an e-mail from Jim Cummins (cummins nursery) in response to a some questions I had about trees they were offering on m-111 with a g-11 interstem. For those unfamiliar, Jim was also one of the primary breeders/researchers in developing the Geneva series rootstocks. I was trying to get some info on size and anchorage, the original question predates this thread. But his answer would seem to bear directly on several of the issues that have come up here the last few days.

"We strongly recommend that trees on G.11/MM.111 interstems be planted
with half the interstem G.11 exposed above permanent soil level, half
below soil. This permits the G.11 to take root and the tree to
develop a dual root system. The precocity and productivity induced by
G.11 as a rootstock should be slightly diminished. The MM.111 will
provide solid anchorage; staking will not be necessary for tree
support (although we do recommend temporary support to facilitate
building canopy).
We expect ultimate tree size to be about that attained with Malling 26
-- without the problems of fire blight, crown rot, and burrknots."

I'll just chime in because I actually did almost kill a tree by deep planting. It was a sugar maple planted about a foot too deep. It lived for three years but never grew. I finally decided to find out why and saw it was planted too deeply and the roots hadn't grown at all.

I believe the UW here recommends that trees be planted with the root flare at the soil level. I know that's what I saw on the local gardening show. Their expert said that they noticed that the trees planted by the squirrels did better than their trees and the difference was the planting depth. So instead of planting a certain number of inches below the graft, I've been planting with the root flare at soil level. It does seem to work well but my trees are only a few years old.

I am going to have to up root these trees and replant they have sank too low. What soil should i use that will be more stable?
Peat loam, top soil....these have low OM content do they not?
No more manure there is enough in the garden.