Hi Eric, it sounds like you have things covered. I don't have problems with voles but hopefully hman will be able to give you some feedback on your vole avoidance setup. Ditto on the acidic soil, I haven't had to deal with that either. My only advice there is just keep monitoring and correcting and you should be OK, esp. since apples don't mind slightly acidic soil.

Orleans Reinette is an apple in what I call the "yellow school" which includes Pitmaston Pineapple, Roxbury Russet, Pomme Cloche, and others. They are all sour, yellow-fleshed, and citrus taste without a lot of aromatics. OR is probably my favorite of them, it has the most interesting flavor besides Pitmaston Pineapple but that guy is too small. My tree was in too much shade for many years but I chopped down some nearby pines last winter so it should be producing more from here on out. In terms of flavor it has lots of citrus. The nutty comes from the skin and varies a lot from apple to apple but they can be quite pleasantly nutty. I don't recall any vanilla. As with most apples the key to the best taste is let 'em hang let 'em hang let 'em hang. I found one on the ground this year and it was truly memorable.

Scott

Let em hang long? When apples become grainy and lose their snap you'll know you took this philosophy too far. Many apples are crap by the time they fall off the tree and some will rot without dropping.

My approach when planting such a small orchard is carefully choose apples based on utility- especially keeping qualities for at least two. You are going to want apples all winter if you're like me. You also probably want reliable annual cropping with so few trees.

Some varieties may be highly desirable in the climate of Maryland but not so much in Z5 NY, so I'd be inclined to run with New England classics rather than English or French types. I want to get bushels of useable fruit not just a few from each tree or fruit every other year.

I'd run with Roxbury Russet way before experimenting with OR. It is an easy apple to grow in your climate and simple to prune. It is one of the most reliable croppers I grow and keeps into late winter. I also think its is very good to eat and cook and most who I share it with me agree with enthusiasm.

Why the ornamental crab?

I'll offer more comments later- have to get to an important meeting this morning.

There is a chance you have pine voles in your area so you'd better find out about that. You can put traps under trays in the area of the fruit trees and see what type of voles you catch so you know what you're up against.

Hman, the English or French apples in fact do better in New England than they do for me since my climate is hotter than France or England. You sound like the American writers in the 1800s, they always mention how the European varieties do not do well. But you can't make blanket statements like that, some will do great and others will not do well at all. OR and RR are pretty similar for me in any case. Kidds has been very good for me, but I noticed a few people recently did not have such good results with it.

Re: harvesting too late, for summer varieties that can be a problem, but its hard to over-ripen a fall apple on the tree and most people tend to pick apples too early in general. If they are being stored they should not be picked too late, but if they are to be eaten in a few weeks then the later the better. Let a Gold Rush hang til it drops and you will see what I mean. One of my favorite apples is Abbondanza but I expect it is not popular solely because it gets picked too early. It reddens up more than a month before it is ready; picked early is it tannic and bland; picked late it is rich, sweet and aromatic.

Scott

Responses:

Scott, thanks for the additional information on Orleans Reinette, im really looking forward to it. About the voles, I suspect that I dont, however there are digging spots on my lawn and my neighbor tells me they're "skunk holes". I am going to heed your advice and set up a rat trap. The holes are at random around my lawn, they're about the size of a half dollar and usually no deeper than an inch. However, there are a few that go underground.

Harvestman, Orleans Reinette was just the apple I chose. I went to Samascott farms about a month ago in Hudson, and asked for them, and I was told they were not memorable and Golden Russet are better by a long shot. I have Golden Russet in my cooler in the garage. Great apple, flavors are really starting to come out. The apple flesh texture is almost gritty when you eat it, very tasty, dense and buttery when ripe. Samascott does grow Calville Blanc successfully at their orchard, so I have no reason to believe another frenchy couldnt grow near a warm wall 30 minutes north.

I chose these apples for a variety of reasons, (not triploid, pollination time, not too late of harvest, visual appeal, taste of course, utility for other uses) I assume im going to have excess apples, and I want ones that will sell in a farmers market if I go that direction. All 3 apples are typical Red/Green/Yellow color. Unfortunately people dont buy brown russets around here.

Why the crab? I dont have much choice, it was growing in the front yard when I bought the house, and really got this whole crazy process started for me. Good pollination partner for the trees.

I've included a picture of my plots in case you're curious. The sun angle is so low right now my neighbor's hemlock and top of their house is shading the Orleans Reinette plot, this shading starts end of october.

Literally at the forest's edge as you'll see in the backyard. Michael Phillips would be proud. :)

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:125566}}

Typo: Harvestman, Orleans Reinette was just the apple I chose. I went to Samascott farms about a month ago in Hudson, and asked for Roxbury Russet, and I was told they were not memorable and Golden Russet are better by a long shot.

Taste is entirely subjective. Golden Russet is very good also- especially if you like syrupy sweet- which I do, if it comes with character, which GR does. However I'm also very fond of Rox, a tarter apple with much more juice, and it's much easier for me to grow than GR, which just gets pummeled here by coddling moth, wasps and stinkbugs which would triple my spray season if I decided to contend with them. Commercial growers don't give this a thought because they're putting down at least 10 sprays anyway. Golden R. is also difficult to train and very slow to come into production on free standing root stocks.

Scott, I grow Cox and it is not a great producer anywhere in the U.S. that I know of- certainly not here in southeastern NY. Very bienniel whether or not you thin it. Ashmeads K. is one of my favorite apples but certainly not for productivity. I think one of the reasons it is so rich is because it doesn't set that much fruit.

I wasn't suggesting that the Euros would generally do better in your climate just that they would perform much differently- some ways better but I assumed that in most ways worse. I'm aware that our growing season is closer to Western Eu. than yours, although your winters and length of growing season are closer to theirs.

England has a much longer apple growing season than we do which completely changes the equation when it comes to bienniel bearing. Your longer season would limit that problem, I'd think.

I still don't buy what you say about leaving apples on longer being the general advice. It is true that I've had customers complain about some terrible apple variety because they never gave it time to mature, but I think it is just as common for people to wait to long to pick. Just a difference of opinion there.

I think it's important for people to learn the right time to pick their fruit and it's a learning process that we can only partially accelerate with good advice. This year I picked almost half my pear crop 3 weeks early- so I'm still learning myself. Won't make that mistake next year!

In terms of picking, im going to play it by feel of the fruit. I would probably keep an eye out for the first fruits to drop, then test some others with a 90 degree turn upward. If it doesnt release from the tree leave it. I only have 3 fruit trees, so testing for readiness shouldnt be too time consuming.

I am 100% dead set on Orleans Reinette for better or worse. I've spent so much time weeding thru apple varieties afor my needs and taste, I feel its best to roll with it. If it doesnt work out, it doesnt work out, I'll move onto something else. I think the only thing thats going to hold back the trees is my soil. It cant be that bad though, my Jonamac shot up 3 feet in about 4 months. You guys recommend I get my soil tested? Where can I do that? Cornell Cooperative Extension?

In terms of protection, don't forget about rabbits. The voles here have never killed a tree, but I lost 2 to the rabbits before I learned.

ltilton, I have the hardware mesh for that, as well as the cloth wrap.
I am well aware, I see rabbits around my yard all the time, and I keep a scoped pellet rifle near the front door.

Thanks for the reminder.

Megamav: just a few thoughts about CAR.... scout in the Spring time for sporulating galls, they are very easy to spot. If the galls aren't sporulating, your trees can't get infected. If you spray with myclobutanil (Immunox) to control CAR you can even have a 1-2 day period after the leaves get infected to spray and still have the spray be effective.

I suppose it is possible that areas with very low cedar densities can get away with no controls at all but who knows. It may also be possible that in some parts of the country, extended rains come in the Spring that combine with warm enough temperatures to cause the CAR gall sporulation period to be rather brief, say, a week to 3. If one only had to protect against CAR spores for a few weeks +- with Immunox, it makes sense to me that one could get by with 2 well timed apps..

I don't typically get suitable conditions (wet gals + warm temps.) to get all of the galls here to finish sporulating until about 8 weeks +- of the first sporulating galls. So, I watch the weather and scout until the galls are all done and spray only when needed, doing so makes it possible to spray fewer times. This year, we had far more Spring rain events, closer than usual, as a result I only needed 3 spray apps..

The point of all this rambling is, learn about the CAR organisms in your area and control them only when they are a threat to your trees, who knows, maybe you'll be able to get by with one spray.

Glad I checked this thread.
Honestly, the previous owner (idiot) planted Juniper bushes about 20 feet from the crab apple in my yard. They're getting ripped out in the spring along with white pine trees for more sun. My neighbor also has a few junipers and told her to keep an eye out for the orange bulbs. I will be spraying Immunox in the spring on the crab apple and my Jonamac. No worries about the maidens going in.

We did have an exceptionally wet early spring, like none I've ever experienced before. That could be a contributing factor to it. I live on the forests edge with a lot of other people, so its entirely possible these spores arent even from the Junipers in adjacent yards, but across the forest.

This is a *must spray* situation, for CAR, no doubt about it.

Im kinda wondering what else I need to spray/trap for?
Hardware cloth is up to just under the first set of branches (27").

Ive seen aphids on the other trees around here, and I've read about orchard encounters with apple curculio, but I've never seen the buggers around, but im probably naive to think they're not. Tree borers? Coddling Moth? So many nightmares, I guess you dont know what to spray for until you see it.

Thanks for your reply.

My orchard/nursery is on the edge of recently cleared woods in Putnam Co NY. I can harvest sound apples with 2 sprays. You can probably do this with Ortho's Triazide, Once and Done. I have cedars in my woods and can throw some myclobutanyl (Immunox to you) in the mix and control CAR with the same 2 sprays- one at petal fall of latest blooming apples and one 10 to 14 days later.

I've been doing this for decades now on scores of sites in Putnam, Dutchess, Columbia, Westchester counties and CT.

I will do it how you do it then.
Im in Saratoga county about 2 miles from Saratoga Lake.
Its good to be able to narrow it down to a couple of sprays, pests and CAR/Scab.
Thanks for your advice, you're always helpful.

-Eric

You probably only need insecticide to protect fruit. Aphids will slow the growth of apples somewhat but if you don't spray the ladybugs will probably get things under control- especially if you put outdoor ant stakes under the trees where ants are tending the aphids.

On bearing age trees, aphids aren't much of an issue even when left unchecked.

Leaf hoppers also slow growth and do need to be controlled if you want max growth. You can spray the growing tips with Sevin to control these but it must be done into Aug and at least every 2 weeks if they reappear-which is likely. Trees will still establish if they aren't controlled.

My oak trees have galls, or so I've been told. Are these the same galls involved with CAR or a different type?
Dan

Different, and beware of tree care companies identifying tree diseases. Many of them are always trying to spray something when often it is a pest that is not a true threat. Always get a second opinion from your cooperative extension if your money is important to you.

Thanks harvestman, I will take a sample to my county extension agent. He's moved so I will have to track him down.
Dan

Just another picking time perspective from an apple tree master:

"All your efforts to grow a great apple can get lost in the pits if you pick them before they're ripe." His advice on when to pick: "Simply cut one open. The seeds should be dark. Seeds that are white or any stage in-between mean the apple still needs time to fully develop and ripen." - Nick Botner

In my opinion seed color will vary with varieties and this is not a completely reliable barometer by any means. Seed viability does not completely determine how a variety will taste to us, so even if all ripe apples had the same seed color when viable it would not be a complete answer either. Many varieties, such as Ginger Gold, are very good well before the seeds are mature.

That said, observing seed color is a very helpful method- just not the end-all solution.