Have the 20017 with PP (no traction assist handle)and haven't had any of the problems you are having. Cost only $370 at HD also. It has become apparent in this forum that PP is not for everyone. My dad still hates cars with automatic transmissions, I guess you like what you know. Give it some time and the PP will become second nature and you won't even notice that it is there.

Haven't had those kinda problems with a SR 20037 and I've got loads of bushes and trees to navigate around. The personal pace drive on my mower engages and disengages easily. I can move backwards, forwards, turn, inch forward, trim close to bushes with no problem whatsoever. If fact operation of the Toro has become second nature....it just goes where I want to to go with little forethought.

I think that most of us who approach a new machine with the idea that it will take a little learning will have little problem adapting. My previous mower was a 30 year old front wheel drive single speed Toro, so that was indeed a transition...but a very good one.

Now that I think about it, didn't you post a message much like this earlier?

I have landscape beds, swingset, splitrail fence with mesh and the personal pace works better than any mower I have ever owned. The only time I have had any problem is when I tried operating the personal pace with one hand whilt walking offset to the mower. Once I moved directly behind the mower my pace and the mower speed came in sync.

Try the Lawn Boy at HD for a little over $300. The 10684 and 10685 have the squeeze bar to engage the drive. These mowers perform as good or better than the $600 Toros from my experience with both.

I can commiserate with Dullchain , the Honda VXA "smart drive" is similar, but it simply does not work that smoothly, nor quickly.

The real problem is the so-called lawn of mile - its little more than a pile of back-fill with grass and weeds atop...
Makes mowing a chore -
Front drive slips far too easily, but control is intuitive...
Rear drive is imprecise and strenuous to control..
No drive is too hard to push uphill...

The Honda....VXA has been returned to HD, their lawn mowers are NOT the same as their cars, quality-wise.
HD is so-so, could be a lot better..
So, now I am considering a 20057 Toro.
Apparently LB and Toro have the same relationship as VW and Audi.... or Ford and Mercury.
Nice to have a decent yard and a LB 10550.... dream on...

The Honda HRR216VXA in many way is a better built machine than the Toros or LB.

The Honda has a sturdier deck, handlebars, wheels and wheel adjusters. The engine is quieter and is used on many premium models of other manufacturers including LB.

The Honda's rear wheels can be adjusted up and down very easily with a single handle.

The BBC is a nice feature and there is an update that hopefully will make it stay engaged better. This feature is available on the more expensive models of Toro and LB.

The speed control is being redesigned, I was told by Honda ,to relieve the pressure on the thumbs that some have complained about.

The bag is easy to take off and on, but is very porous allowing dust to escape thru the bag. I don't know if the Toro/LB bag is more dust resistent or not.

I bought this mower a HD for $399, $50 more than the LB 10685 which was my 2nd choice. I probably would have liked the LB also.

Huskyfan, most of what you say is true, and I agree - more or less..
Had HD / Honda been responsible and stocked replacement bag frames, I would have accepted one and made the repair myself.. They chose not to, instead I had to return the entire lawn mower !
I was told that Honda manufactured many defective frames, evidently they have done nothing about it.

Maybe only one in a hundred were bad , I do not know..

I do know that their attitude is not good. One would also think that this was the first year for Honda lawn mowers, that they were still figuring out how to design and build them...
Their engines are first class; the B & S Intel may also be as good......

earthworm

I agree that the bag frames often seem misaligned. I bent mine to fit better but Honda could do better. I think overall, the mower is well built and cuts and bags really well. The mower vacuums very well picking up grass, leaves, sticks and dust. I hope I can reduce the dust coming thru the bag some way. Maybe there is something I could spray inside the bag to make it less porous on the top and rear of the bag.

I was thinking of doing that, but I just paid nigh $500, to have such a poor fitting bag is not right.
Other lawn mowers, even the cheapies, have decent fitting bags..
Honda should repair/replace your bag if it is too porous, a $400 to $500 mower should be right; a cheap one can get away with being cheap...

My SR 20037 makes my liver quiver with unequivocable delight every time I wrap my pudgy paws around its handle.

The music from the muffler enchants me with its melodic drone.

The bag that fills with residue from lopped-off little grass heads empties easily.

Maneuvering, manipulating speed and reversing is done instinctively with nary a speck of trouble.

Bliss is mine, all mine... Nirvanna is attained when my Toro and I dance across the grass.

You betcha'.

Wow obbopp. Back away from the mower. It is okay to love your mower, but it is not okay to LOVE your mower. Glad to see someone else who is a big PP fan.

"Nirvanna is attained when my Toro and I dance across the grass."

I'll bet Fred and Ginger would look like amateurs compared to you two!:)

Is it too much to ask for the PP Toro Model 20017 to actually drive the mower up a hill without having to push it like it had no self drive at all?

'Is it too much to ask for the PP Toro Model 20017 to actually drive the mower up a hill without having to push it like it had no self drive at all?'

Yes. That's why they developed the squeeze assist.

'Is it too much to ask for the PP Toro Model 20017 to actually drive the mower up a hill without having to push it like it had no self drive at all?'

I am confused. I have one from the first year they came out. I walk level; it goes. I walk downhill; it goes. I walk uphill; it goes. Why are you pushing it?

I bought the mower used 2002 model designation. Could the belt be worn and not properly engaging? I pulled the wheels and greased the pinions drives. Keys wer engaged and operating properly. It must be the belt?????

I have several Toro mowers. the most recent being an SR4 20057. My other two are the 3 speed Suzuki powered units. When I got my newest unit the PP system did not appeal to me either. I was having a lot of the same problems that dullchain was describing.

I took it back to my dealer and had him look at it. Turns out the drive engage/disengage cable was out of adjustment. This resulted in the mower not wanting to release the drive in reverse. He adjusted it to his satisfaction. This was ok but I have since tweaked it myself and the whole unit is a dream to use now.

I still like the 'zuk powered units but the SR4 is well on its' way to becoming my favorite. If you adjust the cable yourself just be careful and don't loosen it to far as this will result in a loss of power/traction.

** On a side note the engine that came with the unit turned out to be defective (Way to much ring gap) and B&S replaced, no questions asked with a new Intek Pro 6.5 hp. One of the nice things about the new motor is that it actually has a throttle/shutoff on it.

I goess I'm not surprised that the Toro Personal Pace is not "Good For All situation". I have yet to find a mower or drive situation that is "Good For All Situations".

I've had a Toro SR with personal pace for 4 years and have not had any of the problems you have encountered. And yes, my lawn with trees, hills, bushes, etc., is technically challenging too.

As with any machine it takes some time to get used to the controls and how to use them. The assist handle would in my opinion make mowing with personal pace more difficult because you are in effect overriding a very well designed feature.

Since you are doing wheelies, the first bit of advice I would give is relax----relax your arms and just walk.

My SR4 20092 is my first self-propelled mower. Maybe I just don't know any better, but I don't have any issues with Personal Pace.

My yard is very bumpy and I do some pulling back in areas. The only time I have to actually think about what I'm doing is if I'm going uphill and want to stop and pull it back, but it only takes about 6-8" or so of forward travel to disengage the drivetrain so it's not that difficult. Overall I find PP to work very well. The mower itself is about as simple and easy-to-use as it gets, with no manual choke, prime, throttle, or speed controls.

Every self-propel system has comprimises. I researched PP extensively and read through the pros and cons and various threads, including this one. I was leery about it but my concerns turned out to be unfounded.

That's just my opinion of course.

I have a Toro 20062, and I like it. The PP works well for me. Let me know when someone designs a mower that's perfect in every situation, and I'll buy three of them!

'Let me know when someone designs a mower that's perfect in every situation, and I'll buy three of them!'

It doesn't have to be perfect, just not aggravating most of the time. I concur 100% with the original poster - it was like he was talking about my yard and my mower. Personal Pace, Easy-Stride and Sensa-Speed all can be nightmarish in certain situations. Plus, the big point for me was you can't turn it off. Once I discovered 'Variable Speed' which is simply PP with manual bail control, I knew I had found the 'drive of my life', to coin a phrase. PP can be great under some conditions, but I don't know how many times I got enraged with mine. I came close several times to throwing it out in the street and shooting it until it caught fire. It's not about 'not liking new things', being 'set in one's ways' or not 'giving it enough time'. It's simply that PP is a marvelous drive system except under certain conditions. If you do not encounter those conditions where you mow, you may really like it. Even if you do have some of the problems, many people just aren't that bothered by them - others are.

I would be willing to bet if you are having that many problems your mower needs to be adjusted. The technology is not that complicated and should be effortless when correctly adjusted (mine evidently was adjusted correctly straight out of the box, so I have never had a problem).

Like anything else PP just takes a little while to get used to. I have a pretty flat yard, but also a small hill in the side yard. PP works pretty well. Best bet is just to take a deep breath and not sweat it so much. Relax and you'll get used to it. Toro is a great mower.

I just don't get many of the complaints. My yard is very bumpy and I do a significant amount of pulling back and turns. All things that PP is supposedly poor at and the reasons I was leery about buying it. But I don't have any issues with these things.

Although I don't have a lot of experience with them, I have found constantly messing with a bail and manual speed control quite annoying. The main selling point of PP is the simplicity of it.

If for some reason you like to manually disengage your drive often PP may not work well for you. But for most homeowners that is not an issue.

To each his own I guess.

I just purchased a 20068 with the blade clutch and PPace.

I am not crazy about it because at times I find myself pushing too hard on the handle, or when turning and going forward I push a little too hard. I placed a radiator hose clamp on the handle bar slide. Its my own pace governor. Now I can live with it, although if there was a conversion kit, and I could still have the blade clutch I believe I'd do that.

That is one issue with the PP, it makes pushing the mower so easy that sometimes you will find yourself speeding up which can affect quality of cut/mulching when the grass is high.

I know what you mean, dullchain, about the suction. I bought a 20332 today and I just mowed with it. When I made a turn and lifted the front wheels off the ground, it left clumps of grass that didn't get mulched. My Ryobi never did that. I'm not sure what I will do, I might return it. Did you keep yours or return it.