Lawn redoing plan with the Magnificent 3 !

16 years ago

First of all I appreciate everyone's helping nature here. By reading on this forum I have learned a lot. I was hoping to get some guidance from you all on my lawn redoing project.

Here is the history of my lawn so far -

2005 -

Moved into new house in May. Builder sprayed lawn mix in May. Since I did not have any clue about lawn maintenance, by August I had pretty good lawn. I realized what crabgrass is only after my friend pointed out all I had was crabgrass. I started reading about Lawn maintenance. Came across some website and decided to redo my lawn as per the steps given there. I rented a tiller and tilled my front and side yard for couple of days. It was not fun and decided to not till my backyard. Broadcast spreaded Perennial Rye and put down starter fertilizer and mulch. But within couple of days we got some hurricane rain and ended up getting my lawn washed out. Still some grass managed to germinate. But I was devastated

2006 -

Since I had lot of bare spots I pretty much knew I had to reseed in the fall. So did not do much. Again same story. In summer got ton of weeds. By then I had found this forum and came across lot of good stuff. I learned why tilling was not a good choice and what other things I should have done. I really wanted to get it done right this time. I got the sprinkler put in. I also got the soil test done. I was also concerned about my soil. So I got some topsoil delivered and hired a contractor to power rake. I think he did good job of mixing the topsoil into ground. At that time I wanted to put Midnight but the contractor recommended putting Perennial Rye for easy germination. I followed his advice. So we added lime, starter fert, PR seeds, rolled it and put mulch on top of it. Within couple of weeks I saw seeds germinating. I was happy to see the yard filled with lawn.

2007 -

In spring when saw forsythias blooming I put down pre-emergent (Lesco Dimension with slow release fertilizer). In spring lawn thickened little more. Now I see pretty good coverage (especially my backyard) but still far from being good looking lawn. I also saw Red Thread problem. So put down some organic fertilizer(Soyabean meal - 100 lb and Milogranite - 120 lb). I still have the problem but the lawn is looking greener. Earlier I was thinking about overseeding with KBG elite mix but after reading advice from Bestlawn and Turf_toes, I decided to kill the existing PR lawn.

So here I am with some questions -

We live in Connecticut. We have 20 K square feet lawn. Most of the lawn gets at least 4 hour of sun. So I am thinking I have sunny lawn. Based on Bestlawn's recommendations to Morpheus, Ron and Chris I have chosen to put down "The Magnificent 3" (Ron,cool name!)(Midnight2- 40%, Bedazzled - 30 %, Moonlight - 30%) But when I talked to Glenn from Pawnee Buttes Seed today he said they don't carry Midnight II. Earliest they might get that cultivar will be in spring 2008. So I was wondering by going with midnight v/s midnight-2, am I going to loose a lot? Is it worth getting midnight-2 from some other vendor? Am I better off with Award instead?

Should I try to core aerate or slit seed or both ? I read about this in some other posts but sill not sure what to do.

I have also decided to brew compost tea using dchall's process. But I was not sure when exactly I should apply this tea knowing that in a week or so I will be killing the existing lawn and put down new lawn by end of August. Since I will be feeding the soil, will I be better off doing it before killing the lawn or after putting down new lawn or somewhere in between?

Knowing that lawn had had Red Thread disease, how much of organic fertilizer I should be putting down? I also was not sure when exactly I should put it down. Should I put down Corn meal instead of Soyabean meal?

Here are the steps I will be following this fall. Please advice.

July 28 - Round up lawn.

Aug 4 - Round up second round.

August 17,18 - Cut down the lawn as small as possible and bag the dead grass.

August 18,19 - Core aerate

August 18,19 - Slit seed, Add fertilizer

This point onward - keep seed bed moist.

Morpheus, can you please let us know the steps you would be taking during your lawn redoing project after roundup. BTW even I had tough time convincing myself killing existing lawn. But when I saw you decided to kill your lawn it was lot easier.

Sorry for the long post and Thank you all!

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Comments (18)

morpheuspa (6B/7A, E. PA)
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Now that's a lotta work!

I love the Magnificent Three (there should be a superhero movie about it...able to leap tall crabgrass in a single bound...)

I decided to slit seed because I'm using organic methods. Core aeration's unnecessary at this point on my lawn, except for one or two very tiny areas that could use a bit. Those I did by hand just before I slaughtered millions of innocent grass plants.

Core aeration (20 or more holes per square foot) would be just fine as well. Both...what a mess! :-) One or the other would be fine.

Midnight is the parent of Midnight II. They're essentially the same grass, except that Midnight II has been bred for a bit more resistance to disease.

Bestlawn would know better than I would, but I doubt you'd be disappointed with Midnight. If the idea makes you uncomfortable, you could order Midnight II from another supplier and mix it in yourself.

Red thread really doesn't like nitrogen, so fertilizing it helps tremendously. It's rare that I've seen it kill a lawn, and then only one that isn't cut right, never fertilized, and completely ignored. Corn meal may help control the fungus, too.

Morpheus, can you please let us know the steps you would be taking during your lawn redoing project after roundup. BTW even I had tough time convincing myself killing existing lawn. But when I saw you decided to kill your lawn it was lot easier.

Gladly!

Warning. I'm jumping the gun on timing because my vacation schedule is when I can have my on-call status covered, not when I actually should be doing this! I have an irrigation system and intend on programming it to keep this seed damp at all times.

Last weekend I hit the existing lawn (KGB, KenBlue and Abbey cultivars, plus a little leftover fescue here and there) with Roundup. Yes, it hurt. With Rye, you'll have to do it or the new seed won't grow (ryegrass kills anything around it that's trying to sprout).

This week, I'm cleaning up obviously-missed patches and the garden edges. This weekend, I'm doing the entire lawn again just to make sure.

The weekend following that is planting, then water three times a day for a month or so, backing off thereafter. Alfalfa will be going down the day I plant as starter fertilizer, but that's it.

Feed lightly to moderately once a month until growth slows (for me, around late October), then winterize in November around Thanksgiving.

I'll frost-seed in February to fill any poor areas.
billhill
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Vkolte - Your schedual looks good. Good advice from Morpheus. Do you have an automated irrigation system? Are you able to water 20,000 sq ft of lawn 3 times per day ? If you cannot keep the seeds and seedlings damp for about 6 weeks and continue to irrigate, then you might consider reducing the size of your project to something more managable. You have gotten some rotten advice in the past. Stay tuned here for your lawn care advice in the future. Good luck with your lawn and gardens.
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bestlawn
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Like Morpheus indicated, you don't want to core aerate and slit seed. Either will lend good seeding results. If slit seeding is what you decide to do, you can cheat on the compaction problem with a liquid aeration product like Nitron A-35

I'm just a little confused by "Most of the lawn gets at least 4 hour of sun. So I am thinking I have sunny lawn" because it doesn't sound conclusive. Elaborate if you think it best to explain. Otherwise, going with your estimation, I suggest........

Award
Brilliant
Moonlight
Equal parts by weight

This blend is formulated for red thread resistance, but you will still have the beautiful color of the Magnificent 3 blend. You'll have light shade tolerance, plus Brilliant and Moonlight will protect the stand against powdery mildew if there is potential.

Ryegrass is common in your area, but I take it you're not happy with it. Good luck with your endeavor and let us know if you need irrigation schedule to get the seeds germinating and the grass growing.
bestlawn
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Meant to add that you want alfalfa, like Morpheus, to get the roots growing good. Subsequent fertilizing can be soybean meal if you like. Corn meal is not much of a fertilizer, but you do want to apply it once a month to further help prevent red thread.
vkolte01
Original Author
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Appreciate everyones prompt response.

Morpheus - Based on your suggestions, I would like to skip aeration and go for slit seeding. I also like BestlawnÂs idea about cheating with Nitron A-35. I was planning on doing aeration because it was one of the recommended things to do. How can I make sure I donÂt have compact soil?
Also, how much Alfalfa I should be putting down per square feet when I put the grass seeds? Also in monthly feeding, which fertilizer and how much I should put down until growth slow down?

Billhill - I do have sprinklers installed and am also sure will be able to water it three times a day.

Bestlawn Â After reading my explanation again I realized why my sunny lawn comment did not sound conclusive. Appreciate your meticulousness in your advice. Here are more details about my sun/shade position.

Backyard Â gets shade from trees until around 10 am. Then as Sun traverses towards west I start getting sun there. Then around 2-3 pm shade starts extending from house towards end of the lawn. So I easily get at least 4-5 hours of sun there.

Frontyard and sideyards Â get very less shade. Mostly it gets sun. (6-8 hours of sun)

Somewhere I read if you get at least 4 hours of Sun then you have sunny lawn and if it is less than 4 hours then its shaded lawn. Do I make any sense now? Please let me know if my understanding is correct.

Based on this information do you still recommend the same blend? On ntep.org when I checked NJ and MA locations, I did not see Moonlight in the list. I have heard lot about this cultivar, so was curios why itÂs not listed there. Also when you said Ryegrass is common in our area, do you think I will be better of with Ryegrass? I apologize for so many questions.

Any suggestion about my compost tea application timing ?

Thanks again.
bestlawn
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Yep, makes sense and you are correct. I was thinking in terms of a sunny lawn as you stated and formulated mainly for red thread resistance, but I would suggest the same blend for light shade conditions in any area that supports it.

Alfalfa at 20 lbs/1000sq ft. I would apply the compost any time after the kill. You can do it at time of seeding if you want.
bestlawn
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Sorry, I missed the other questions.

Connecticut is considered within the north eastern region. New Jersey isn't, so I wouldn't look there for comparable varieties necessarily. The main focus was red thread resistance and I made the selection after juggling data from here, here, here, here.

You'll find Moonlight in those somewhere. It got a little confusing LOL but I was happy with the decision. I did want to suggest Diva over Moonlight for slightly better performance, but I can't suggest Diva at all this year. Please ignore my ryegrass comment. I was thinking more in terms rye in the east near water. Don't know why I associated Connecticut with water. Sorry about that.
morpheuspa (6B/7A, E. PA)
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Morpheus - Based on your suggestions, I would like to skip aeration and go for slit seeding. I also like Bestlawns idea about cheating with Nitron A-35. I was planning on doing aeration because it was one of the recommended things to do. How can I make sure I dont have compact soil?

It makes perfect sense, and you can certainly cheat with Nitron A-35 and nobody will know the difference!

A non-compacted soil feels firm when dry, slightly resilient when wet. If your current grass grows fairly well and doesn't have any areas that burn extremely easily (anything burns a bit in 95 and full sun) you probably don't have compacted soil.

You can also try the screwdriver test--take a long-handled screwdriver (flat-blade is what I prefer for less surface damage, but Phillips' is fine) and shove it into the ground. If it goes in fairly easily (barring rocks), your soil is not compacted. If you have to fight with it or are unable to get it in more than two or three inches, your soil is compacted.

Nitron will help lighten the compaction. Shifting to organic feeding will also help greatly. I started out with soil that was so compacted the screwdriver wouldn't get past an inch without standing on it. Now, two years into organics, it's much better.
fernalfer
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Ok i live in CT. My lawn consists of KBG/Rye/Fescues basically i have over seeded the last 2 years with the Scotts Sun&Shade mix. Now my lawn doesn't look that bad but because of the different grass types the growth of each type is all over the place making my lawn uneven.

I also am considering starting over with a Good KBG mix. But this project sounds scary to me and my wife thinks i'm nuts.

Now if this were to happen what types of KBG mixes should i use?

I will be doing my front lawn which recieves about 80-90% sunlight. And some areas around the tree get 50-60% sunlight.

Also is round up the way to go for killing my existing lawn?

Once i'm ready to slit seed the new KBG mix into the ground is the anything i should lay on top? Topsoil? Peatmoss? if i could skip that part cause of cost i would but if it will hinder the germination process i will do so.

Basically anyone that can give me advice in what steps to use from the killing of the lawn to the planting of the new seed would be appreciated.

Also Bestlawn if you could come up with some kind of mix for me that would be great. I want to start the killing of the existing lawn no later then the 3rd week of august.
vkolte01
Original Author
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Bestlawn,
Thanks for the clarification. I could not believe that you replied to my questions between 1 and 4 AM. Do you take any rest at all? Well.. we all owe you big time!

One thing I was curios about If I did not have Red thread what blend you would have suggested. Since Red thread is easily fixable by proper fertilization, am I loosing anything by going for blend formulated for red thread? (I hope I am not annoying you with these stupid questions.. I apologize in advance)

I will place order for the suggested blend with Pawnee Buttes Seed tomorrow. For 20K square feet, I am planning to order 80 lbs seed. I will also start looking for Alfalfa at local feed stores. I will also send samples for soil test by this weekend.

Morpheus, thanks for your prompt responses as well. As per your description I think I have compacted soil. But I will also do the screwdriver test. I have already placed an order for Nitron.

So here is the new schedule. Please let me know if I am doing anything wrong or overdoing anything. Now that I have added step of Nitron I was not sure about timing of Nitron and Compost Tea. Can it happen together or need to do in some other sequence?

Roundup 1st round July 28
Roundup 2nd round Aug 4
Apply compost tea on half lawn Aug 5
Apply compost tea on remaining half Aug 11
Apply Nitron A-35 Aug 12
Cut grass to 1.5 and rake the dead grass. Aug 18
Slit seed in different directions Aug 18
Put down Alfalfa 20 lbs/1K Aug 18
Put down lime (if needed based on soil test) Aug 18
Roll it (since I am doing slit seeding do I need to do this?)
Put Mainely Mulch
Water as per schedule provided by Bestlawn
water 15-20 minutes twice a day for two weeks (should I change this to 3 times a day?)
water 20-30 minutes once a day for one week
water 30-45 minutes once a day every other day for one week
water 30-45 minutes once a day twice a week for one week
move into deep irrigation, increasing the time to provide 1 inch of water all over and decreasing the frequency to just once a week. If you have to move the sprinklers at any point, the new location also receives 1 inch.

Put down soyabean meal 15 lbs/1k End of September
Put down winterizer End of October

Thanks again.
bestlawn
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
"Now my lawn doesn't look that bad but because of the different grass types the growth of each type is all over the place making my lawn uneven."

Fernalfer, that's exactly the reason you want start over. There are often other reasons, but yours is one prime example. It diminishes turf quality (appearance) and often requires mowing more often to maintain uniformity.

Third week of August is too late. You want to allow 2 or 3 weeks for additional spraying. 1st week - spray, 2nd week - spray again. There might have to be a third week for a third application.

That "R" word stuff is the only herbicide you can use and seeds right afterward. Others will not allow seeding for several weeks following application. If you don't want to use herbicide at all, there are a couple more options. Vinegar/water solution acts as an organic non-selective herbicide like that "R" word stuff. It also will require several applications for a complete kill. You can rent a sod cutter. It's more work and more expensive but sure is faster rather than repeated herbicide applications and waiting 2-3 weeks before seeding can take place. You can try smothering the grass by covering it with black (or dark colored) plastic to solarize and deny sunlight. This will also take several weeks and you'd have to lay the plastic very soon, but it's cheaper than a sod cutter.

Yep, you want to take care and do everything right as best you can. Cutting cost doesn't factor into the equation unfortunately. I, at least, cannot suggest short cuts, as fault for anything less than success could easily be directed at me. Besides that, it's not in your best interest. Peat moss (Canadian Sphagnum) is my personal favorite growing medium. However, it is a lot more expensive than compost, which is also excellent and a great soil amendment.

Please forgive if I don't enumerate all the steps and methods right at the moment. I'll post a new thread on the subject tomorrow and others will chime in with their advice also, so you'll get a complete rundown of your options. In the meanwhile, there are several threads already on the first 2 or 3 pages of the board that are extremely helpful.

I am interpreting "50-60 sunlight" to mean your grass around the trees does receive at least 4-6 hours of sunlight, right? If I'm right, my suggestion to Vkolte01 above will work fine for you also. If I'm wrong, please inform.

Please let us know if we can help with anything else.
vkolte01
Original Author
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Bestlawn,
I talked to Pawnee Buttes Seed today and found out they are not carrying Brilliant. The person on the phone said they could replace it with Prosperity which is from the same Compact America type. When I checked that information against your provided information and also googled, found out Prosperity is a Compact Type. In that case I will have Moonlight and Prosperity from the same type.

I also checked NTEP data and found out Bedazzled ranks very high for Red thread disease resistance and also has performed well in north east regions. Since Bedazzled is also a compact america type, will that be better option?

The other confusion was Prosperity is hybrid cross of Brilliant and Midnight. So does this make Prosperity better choice since I was going to get Brilliant ?
bestlawn
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Dang, I can't believe I forgot to suggest where to purchase the blend.

Arkansas Valley Seed
303-320-7500

I can't remember exactly the reason I chose Brilliant over Bedazzled. Better performance in your area? Better powdery mildew resistance? Other? I really don't recall. Gonna make me look through everything again LOL? Changing to Bedazzled shouldn't be a problem though.

You know what? My daughter looks absolutely nothing like me. If I were a man, I'd seriously question a few things LOL. Kidding aside though, genetic diversity for kbg can be a little confusing. In this case, it only means Prosperity expresses its traits and characteristics most similar and common to the compact types. It really isn't about heredity in this instance. My explanation before to others on the board wasn't to suggest plants always ultimately turn out like either the pollen or pollinated plant. It only happened to apply in the instances of Midnight and those other Midnight types. Case in point, you can blend Prosperity with Midnight even though Midnight was the mother plant. It didn't end up being genetically similar though, nor like Brilliant. Actually, Midnight was the mother plant for lots of the new hybrids in all the categories. Hope I explained that to make sense.
vkolte01
Original Author
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I read this few times. I think I understood what you are saying but am still confused. I will find out from Arkansas Valley. If their cost is comparatively higher what would you recommend - Bedazzled or Prosperity ?

Thanks again.
bestlawn
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Bedazzled. You want from each genetic family (category). If you have to replace anything, look for a good performer in the same family, in this case it's Bedazzled.

Arkansas Valley raised prices this year way before Pawnee Buttes did. We knew it would get to the point that everyone was going to do that before seeding season. They had no choice. But, I don't know whose price is higher. If Arkansas Valley is too high, go on and order the blend from Pawnee Buttes with Bedazzled instead of Brilliant.
vkolte01
Original Author
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Thanks Bestlawn. I will find out.

Can you please comment on my overall plan I have posted earlier in this thread. I had some confusion about Compost Tea and Nitrol timing. Also do I need to do rolling and mulch application if I am doing slit seeding ?

Thanks.
centreville
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I'm impressed by the wealth of information flowing in this thread! I'm in VA and I have a lawn with spotty fescue that seems to be having a tough time because of the clay. My question is, how do I start over? Should I kill what is there first and bring in some top soil (how much, 1", 2") or can I dump the top soil over what is there now. Also, any suggestions regarding starting it off with a rich fertilizer, etc are appreciated. I do have an irrigation system.

Many thanks!
kachinee
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
"Actually, Midnight was the mother plant for lots of the new hybrids in all the categories. Hope I explained that to make sense."
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One thing that I am not understanding about the custom blends, is how the hybrids grow together in a lawn over time, and whether or not the various custom blends have been tested to see if they provide all the benefits of each one in a serendipitous way, as I believe has been represented, at least by implication. In other words, this hybrid is pretty good at resistance to this or that while the other has great color, while a third is less susceptible to salt damage. So getting all 3 covers you on all fronts?

Lawn redoing plan with the Magnificent 3 !

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morpheuspa (6B/7A, E. PA)

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Lawn redoing plan with the Magnificent 3 !

Comments (18)

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