Brandon:

There are many questions imbedded in your overall question, each of which could require several paragraphs to answer, but even those answers would be far from comprehensive. We are counseled on Gardenweb not to label any question as "annoying" (patience is the watchword here), but overall, the questions you ask indicate you have done little to no independent research before coming here for guidance. So my first bit of advice is to do some. Research I mean. You need to read a book on fruitgrowing, look over some fruit tree catalogs or online listsings, or go to university fruitgrowing websites to access the basic principles of fruitgrowing. Then come here for further help with specific questions about things you still do not understand. No one is going to write a book for you here, although I have come pretty close in some of my past posts. Which brings me to another resource: Have you tried to access the archives of this forum for any information?

I will try to address some of your concerns, but please understand I am only scratching the surface:

1. No-spray or nearly no-spray varieties. What's this about? Is this based on "organic" theology, or do you just want to avoid the bother of spraying? I am not the best counselor for committed "organic" growers, since I use a mix of chemical, physical and cultural practices to grow fruit. Much of my fruit is sprayed early, then bagged in ziplock sandwich bags or shoe store "footies" to eliminate the need for spraying all season long. That works well for me, and leaves me with few concerns about pesticide residues on fruit. But this itself is a generalization, since many trees must be sprayed against both insects and diseases to keep both the fruit and trees healthy. The only fruit tree I grow that requires no spraying is the Asian pear, and that is because early plum curculio damaged pears can be thinned off when the fruit set is as large as these trees provide. The "low-spray" feature advertised on some apple varieties refers only to diseases such as scab, cedar apple rust, and fireblight, and even then the resistance is only partial and can be overcome by persistent diseases in the area. No apple is resistant to any insect pest. And there are a lot of those.

2. None of us try to grow fruit with poor taste or quality. Variety selection is important, both for flavor and adaptability to your particular region, but you need to review what is available out there and decide what appeals to you, then come here to see if anyone in similar climate circumstances grows this variety and can vouch for it. Asking for variety recommendations here will get you suggestions all over the map, and you might as well refine your own desires first. Some apples are good for both fresh and culinary purposes, but there are some outstanding apples that are better adapted to one or the other. We use the old Yellow Transparent apple for applesauce; Winesap and Stayman are wonderful for cider (blended with other, sweeter apples), and Jonagold is excellent for fresh eating. I have about 25 apple varieties here currently, but could get by with around half dozen, divided into early and late.

3. The lifespan of an apple tree on a semi-dwarf rootstock such as M-7 must be 40 years or more, since I have some out there that are 30 years old now, and very healthy and vigorous. However, reaching this ripe old age may require some protection against common diseases such as fireblight, cedar apple rust, and mildew. And that brings me to another area for your reading list: Study up on rootstock types such as seedling, semi-dwarf, and dwarf in their various types so you can understand something of the relative sizes of the trees they will grow, and the particular advantages and disadvantages of each. I have chosen the semi-dwarf M-7 as the best rootstock for my purposes, but your circumstances may lead you to a different choice.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Don, thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. I guess I wasn't clear. Maybe I should have worded my question some other way.

So far as research, I haven't read book after book, but I have spent quite a few hours reviewing catalogs, reading articles on the internet, and reviewing literature from my local university. I guess I could spend a few years reading, but I was hoping that a few people with experience had some "shoot from the hip" answers to get me started. I wasn't trying to get someone to give me all the answers about growing fruit, I was just hoping for a few variety recommendations that might meet the criteria I think I want. I had considered trying to get at least a few trees planted this fall so a short list would seem like a valuable time saving resource. Also, the more I've researched, the more questions I have, and the more contradictory information I accrue.

My desire for "no-spray or nearly no-spray varieties" has nothing to do with organic theology (I didn't even know there was an organic religion). I just realize that I have very very little time to spray my trees. I would be willing to sacrifice just a little taste, some fruit shelf life, etc. to minimize or reduce the maintenance. In doing my initial research, I found many references to "no-spray or nearly no-spray varieties". Maybe that phrase is somewhat of an empty promise, but quite a few sources seemed to indicate that some varieties could be much less trouble than others.

Another thing I found was that some varieties had less taste as a trade off for longer shelf life, ease of harvest, disease resistance, etc. My statement that "Fruit needs to taste as good as possible" was my way of saying that I'd rather have good taste than long shelf life, superior transportability, or "pretty" fruit. Maybe I should have said that the best taste was less important than lower maintenance but more important that some of the other stuff.

There are hundreds or thousands of varieties of apples out there. I have no direct experience with any variety except the ones I've bought at the store and the ones my grandfather grew (have no idea which they were). It's hard to know where to start without any experience. Most catalogs have an agenda to promote the varieties they sell. Picking varieties at random and asking about them specifically seemed like the wrong way to go about it.

I have read quite a bit about different rootstocks and am vaguely familiar with some of the differences. I have also seen that different varieties preformed differently on different rootstock. My approach was going to be to pick a few really good varieties and then research the rootstock a little more myself before ordering.

Brandon:

More vigorous rootstocks are really more disease or insect resistant than dwarfing varieties; they just pretty much outgrow whatever's trying to harm it. If it loses a limb, it grows another one quickly. If borers attack it, it is able to sap them out or callus over the wound.

The down side is they may take 7-10 years to really start bearing.

Applenut

Brandon,

It has been about 1 year since planting my first fruit trees in my backyard orchard. I am proud of my accomplishments, here are my insights.

"1. Trees will be planted in East Tennessee (zone 6b technically, zone 7b realistically)." Virtually all Apples and Pears can grow good in zone 7. The most important thing is a least 8 hours summer direct sunlight for trees to overcome disease , insects and to bear fruit.

"2. Trees will need to be no-spray or nearly no-spray varieties." Don answered this expertly, "The "low-spray" feature advertised on some apple varieties refers only to diseases..." "No apple is resistant to any insect pest. And there are a lot of those." "The only fruit tree I grow that requires no spraying is the Asian pear..."

"3. Fruit needs to taste as good as possible." Check out a local farmstand/market, taste, ask questions.

"4. Quality of fruit is much more important than quantity." I am growing a Flat Wonderful peach tree. The foliage is a specimen quality deep purple color and the tree is vigorous. I am told the spring blooms are a knockout, and the flat peaches taste extraordinary. My "no spray" Olympic asian pear has grown to 8 feet from 36" bareroot. The dark green leaves are 3 times the size of european pear leaves. The pears start in 3rd year are gourmet quality and store for 9 months. My Home Depot bought Shinseiki asian pears came with flowers and bore three nice pears each. Shinseikis can pollinate each other and the Olympic pear, this you will have to study up on.

"5. Long shelf life would be great, but will not be a limiting factor." Fuji and Gala are the hits in the apple market. Even the supermarket ones taste great. Shelf life of a Fuji is up to one year. The asian pears can be eaten off the tree unlike the europeans, that have to be ripened. The Olympic pear has the longest life for the asians at nine months.

"6. Trees that will produce over a long period of time are preferred over short lived/short production life trees." Standard pear trees can live to 100 years. Dwarf pears 35 years. Maybe 15 years for dwarf peaches, apples. Standard trees grow alot longer than dwarfs. Dwarfs bear fruit earlier. In some cases it can save a few years or more getting fruit on the table. Henry Fields has a sale till Thursday Oct. 4. The Olympic and a Flat Wonderful $20.22 each including shipping. I have ordered a 4 varieties grafted to 1 asian pear from Raintree Nursery to be delivered in March 2008. $67 each including $25 shipping.

Grover

Brandon,
My climate here, an hour NW of Nashville, would not be too much unlike your east TN site.
I went overboard planting apples 12-13 years ago, before I realized how much expenditure of time & effort they require. I do not spray - I just don't have time, nor the inclination. Guess I could bag apples, if I could get out there at the appropriate time, but even that hasn't happened the last couple of years.
So far as apples producing any sort of a decent crop with essentially no care, in my orchard, that's been a very small group - MonArk(a BIG, early season variety, great for eating out of hand, cooking, AND!!! it keeps well - 6 weeks under refrigeration), Centennial & Kerr crabs(both are Dolgo offspring), and Callaway crab(an ornamental with 1.5" fruit); oh, and Lodi(which is a poor substitute for its parent, Yellow Transparent).
All pears have produced top quality fruits with no spray. So far, we've eaten all the pears - Asian & European - as fast as the trees could produce them, with no need for any sort of storage - but with a dozen or more 'new' varieties coming into production over the next few years - and my kids growing up and going off to college - they may surpass my ability to eat 'em all. Some of the European pear varieties(Lawson's Early June Sugar, Seckel, Summer Blood Byrne, Summercrisp) have taken up orchard space for an inordinately long time(10-12 yrs) without coming into bearing.
Chojuro & Shinko are my current favorite Asian pears; Hosui gets good reviews(hasn't fruited for me), as does Korean Giant, but KG is worthless here - sets about 2 fruits each year, which are huge and tasteless(thankfully, fireblight got mine last year, and I won't be replacing it).
I like Keiffer, though many folks denigrate it as being inedible - but, it's fireblight resistant/tolerant and reliably productive! Ayers(a U of TN release) is supposed to be good, as is Magness, Tennessee, and Ledbetter; Seckel is a must-have.
Consider planting some other no-spray minor fruits, like persimmons - Asian & American, and mulberries.

If you are really serious about the low-spray I would also check out jujubes (either Honey Jar or Li varieties, most varieties are overly bland), figs (some issues with dying back in the winter but otherwise require little work), and pawpaws (but not everybody likes them, my kids all hate 'em and I love 'em). Or, think about changing your time commitment and trying some apples.

Scott

Thanks for all the info guys. I have learned a few things through this thread. I especially appreciate Lucky's naming a few of the varieties and information about them for me to research.

I already have a small Pawpaw grove and plan on adding some figs later on. Right now the area I want to plant the figs in is under renovation. Maybe this time next year, I'll be ordering figs. I already have those picked out.

Scott, I don't think the time commitment change is going to be likely. I have a 25 acre arboretum that I am trying to develop myself. I have every spare moment pretty much spoken for.

Also, regarding things like asian pears, go to a fruit market. The only asian pear I ever see in the stores here is the Hosui. Try one and see if you like it.

I'll second the recommendations for Mulberries (Illinios Everbearing is the gold standard). Seckel for European pears (and a pollenator, though asian pears might work). I tried Seckel's 2 autumns ago and my wife demanded I plant one the next spring.

The PRI (Perdue, Rutgers University) breeding program seems to be making the best of the supposedly low maintance apples. But as previously mentioned, there is no breeding that can be done about insects.

~Chills

Lucky...you've had Seckel for how long without fruit??

Why does everyone seem to be saying there is no breeding that can be done about insects?

In the same orchard some varieties of apples get attacked much more than others. Many pears apparently aren't bothered much by the common apple insects and they are pretty closely related to apples.

Why can't apples be bred for whatever characteristics make them unattractive or unsuitable for codling moths?

I realize that its with the complexity of all the traits to come together for a palatable apple it is difficult to breed for a particular trait without compromising on others, but has there been any serious effort to breed for or isolate the traits that make some pomme fruits more prone to insect damage than others?

Murky:

Insect resistance has been developed in corn through the addition of a BT gene to its genetic makeup. I am sure that if botanists put their minds to it, they could do the same for pomme fruits. The addition of the BT gene, called Starlink, resulted in such hysteria that taco chips and other similar products were recalled nationwide. The Europeans are even more hysterical about this development than we are. Surely this is not what you had in mind.

Insects like apples for some of the same reasons we do. They are convenient and delicious places to hatch out their larvae. Keeping insects like codling moth off the fruit requires something to deter them. I grow over 25 varieties of apples, and have yet to find one with any real insect resistance. Disease resistance yes; apples like Red Delicious, for example, have a natural resistance to cedar apple rust. But if left unprotected by sprays or bagging, or some other effective technique, insects like plum curculio, oriental fruit moth, and codling moth will tear them apart.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

I do think that some apples are better than others at resisting insects, just not to the point of "no spray". My Roxbury Russet is on the other end of the spectrum, the curculios just love them to death. I'm not sure why. My Galas on the other hand are quite a bit better than average. There are many other apples I could put into one of these two groups of being either magnets or relatively good. Lucky is getting some crops of the larger crabapples which do not have much damage, so that sounds like one class of more bug-resistant apples.

Scott

Your right Don, in that I wasn't suggesting genetic engineering to incorporate insecticide.

But surely some research and inquiry could give some insight into what characteristics of some apple varieties make them less susceptible to insect damage. If we knew what they were we could selectively breed to incorporate those genes into new cultivars. Since codling moths lay their eggs before the apple develops most of the qualities we're looking for, I'm not willing to cede that it is the very delectable qualities we look for in apples that attracts them to the fruit.

What is it about apples that makes them so much more attractive than pears to the insects? Is it the timing of they're fruit development stages or something else?