TexasWeed, your links proves my point even more. They clearly state they overseed with Perennial Ryegrass, which is what I said to you and everyone else that watched on TV. And like iforgotsonevermind said, the article does not say they use Tifway 419; it just says bermuda - which is not a surprise to me. Heck, we use bermuda on golf courses here up in Raleigh; the greens are all bentgrass, however.

iforgotitsonevermind said:

now that I know you're a sod farmer, maybe you can tell me what you think makes more sense for a postage stamp yard... buying weedy common Bermuda seed from Wal-Mart or buying hybrid sod?

Well I have read the OP original post and comments and cannot ascertain it is a Postage Stamp lawn, maybe I missed it?

IMO it comes down to budget, how much work, and effort the homeowner wants to put into the lawn. Obviously if the HO wants a golf coarse type lawn, they are going to have to spend the money, time, and effort to get there. With that said, none of the seeded cultivars can match the overall performance and looks of the hybrids like TifSport and Tifway. (LetÂs not talk about the dwarf types like TifEagle, which is a putting green variety)

As for the seeded varieties, I donÂt care where you buy it, as long as it is certified it makes no difference where you buy it. If Wal-Mart sells a "Certified" variety that you want and can save you money: Then I say go for it.

Now with that said not all seeded varieties are created equal. There are many seeded common varieties that come under the title of "Improved" which have some of the characteristics of the hybrids and can produce a very nice lawn. Some of those improved varieties are Yukon, Riviera, and P-77 (Princess). They can be maintained very short and give the Golf Coarse Fairway appearance if you put the money and time into it. But if the HO does not want to mow 2 or 3 times a week, fertilize once a month, and water religiously then a seeded variety with much lower input requirements is the way to go and still have an attractive lawn. There is no shame in that, as that is greater than 90% of America.

The downside to seeding a Bermuda lawn is it takes a lot more water to get started, in general more soil prep, and at least two growing season to get it relatively weed free, thick, and lush. With sod you get pretty much an instant lawn.

It looks like you agree with me then. I guess that settles it.

For what it's worth, I am a huge proponet of Riviera. I live all the way out in Maryland and still have a Bermuda lawn cut at 3/8ths from the last week of April until mid-December. I think the OP's wishes have been lost in this thread, but Riviera will certainly thrive in Atlanta. It's pricey, but compared to the regimen required to keep a cool season grass cut low and healthy, it's a no-brainer. BTW, Augusta is indeed Bermuda Fairways but they are overseeded with rye.
Nice to see you are still here Tex, I enjoyed posting with you last year.

reelfanatic said:

For what it's worth, I am a huge proponent of Riviera. I live all the way out in Maryland and still have a Bermuda lawn cut at 3/8ths from the last week of April until mid-December. I think the OP's wishes have been lost in this thread, but Riviera will certainly thrive in Atlanta.

I agree with your opinion. To take it one step further, Yukon if you can find it, has the best cold weather performance of the IMPROVED SEEDED varieties. Keep in mind it does not match the cold weather and quality of some of the hybrids, but they are good choices for good quality lawns that can make you a proud HO.

yukon will be available this month from seedland... Expensive though...

Great but maryland gets rain during the growing season. Atlanta is bone dry july/aug/sep. That leaves with recovering turf for october and may & june with grass just coming out of dormancy. Cool season grss may be more work but you actually get 9 months or more of green turf.

Point #2, riviera is not sold at walmart

Point #3, seeding in summer in georgia is very difficult. Just too dry & soil too heavy

I just had my yard sodded with Tifway 419 from the same company who does sod for the Titans. He said LP Field is Tifway 419. They recently converted back to 419 from Tifsport. To put Tifway in the same class as Arizona common is silly. I finally had enough of the annual Middle Tennessee transition zone kill off and reseed of fescue. The fescue around here looks fine now, but it didn't look like much until March, and just wait until July. Come September, everyone in my neighborhood will be redoing 20% to 50% of their yards. It happens every year. The way I see it, if I'm going to have a brown yard several months out of the year anyway, I'd rather it be dormant than dead. This last year, my Bermuda backyard (Mohawk/Cheyenne/Transcontinental seeded blend from Home Depot) was green from the middle of April to the middle of November. I also remember someone who would know recently telling me Augusta National's tees, roughs, and fairways are 419. Take it for what it's worth.

Yet another testimonial from another state with another climate, different soil and rainfall patterns.

iforgotitsonevermind,
Your facts are just simply inconsistent and many are incorrect. Your opinions are so biased you can't see straight.
1) Atlanta has a higher average rainfall in the months of July, August, and September than my area in Southwest Arkansas/Northeast Texas.
2) Atlanta is not a fringe zone as far as Bermuda is concerned.
3)Bermuda growing season is not 5 to 6 months.
4)Planting sod is much more difficult and expensive than seeding. Even a small yard of 2500 square feet would require 5.5 pallets of grass costing $500 plus delivery installation, and tax. It weighs 11,000 to 13,750 pounds which translates into a lot of work. Of course I see a use for sod but there is also a use for seeds too.
5) The Wal-Mart seed I spoke of is Pennington Princess 77 Bermuda 99.9% weed free.
6) Despite your obvious disdain for such things as seeded Bermuda and TIF 419 they can and do make an incredibly beautiful lawn or fairway. In Georgia, Arkansas, Texas and many other states.
Is Bermuda perfect? Nope. I'm still searching for the perfect grass.

rdaystrom,
no offense but you are wrong on every one of those points except for maybe the seed being 99.9% weed free, It may be not taking into account the percentage of "other crop".
You clearly don't know what the atlanta climate is like or what it's like to have brown grass everywhere from November to late may and then again from June to October. You can look at atlanta on google maps and compare how brown everything is to other cities because of the proliferation of bermuda.

I concur with iforgotitsonevermind. His point is that in the past couple of years (maybe more?) Atlanta has seen dry summers and as a result brown grass regardless of type (bermuda or fescue). So if you plant fescue or bluegrass, or even ryegrass, you will have green grass for 9 months or so (I want to say guarranteed) because of the good rain and some snow patern during Fall, Winter, and Spring making ideal to very good conditions to successfully grow a cool season grass (even if is for 9 months during the year) With bermuda or any warm season grass, you know you are going to have brown grass from October to May (maybe mid April if summer arrives sooner and if you fertilize before you are supposed to) and there is nothing the average homeowner can do about it - it's going to turn brown because of cold temperatures. And it doens't have to be a Chicago-type winter for warm season grasses to turn brown, if I'm not mistaken, warm season grasses turn brown/go dormant from Northen Florida and north. Then summer comes and Atlanta gets into this rain patern of rain once per month (about a 1/4 of an inch or so on average) or every 5 to 6 weeks a decent rainfall. So, whith that little rain, plust the intense sun light during the summer months, the moisture in the soil will be depleated very quickly and as a result all grasses, the mighty bermuda, will turn brown, too - and the average homeowner can't do much about it bacause of the water restrictions. So the brown continues...

That's has been the patern in the past couple of year (maybe more?) so it makes perfect sence to plant a cool season grasss in areas with Atlanta-like weather/climate.

If I lived in Atlanta I will plant PRG or Bentgrass and fine fescue in the shade.

The reason bermuda became popular in the atlanta area was the proximity to southern georgia sod farms, promotion by universities trying to make $ and boost agriculture so they can in turn make more $. If you've never been to georgia before, almost everyone in the suburbs lives in a "subdivision" which for those of you up in new england and don't know what that means, it's like taking one of your giant 10 acre lots and dividing into 200 homesites with sidewalks, tennis courts and a swimming pool. The homes are close together and more or less mass produced by the builders. These are not custom homes. They are built then sold later on. To maximize profit on these, the builders negotiate costs on everything including sod. They have always liked bermuda sod because when the homes are close together, a fine textured grass does, admittedly, look better than a tall fescue. Especially since the homes can stay on the market for a year or longer and they are never going to send a crew to mow the lawn. This saves them money because unfed bermuda doesn't grow and dormant bermuda doesn't need mowing either.

Also, Because the builders do not prepare the homesites for lawns, they need something that can can be laid by day laborers on top of mechanically compacted Georgia red clay. Sub contractors break the law and bury debris like bricks and lumber and paint buckets in the soil so another benefit to bermuda is that it will grow over this debris and conceal it until the homeowner moves in and tries to landscape their yard.

The benefits are all too great for home builders. Cheap sod you can set anywhere and have it survive. And it never needs to be mowed until the homeowner moves in. What more can a builder ask for?

What you will notice in communities that have custom homes or higher end homes in the million + (That's a mansion in geogia) there has been a trend leaning away from bermuda sod and more to the tall fescue and durablue and some zoysia sods because the bottom line is they do perform better. Sure you have to water them and mow them a lot more but in return for that, you have a green lawn for the majority of the year.

So will bermuda grow in atlanta? Most certainly. Will bermuda die if the low end of the zone 8 temperatures are realized? Yes. In a typical winter there is some damage anyway.

Bermuda is not finicky and not prone to as many diseases or pests but once again most yards do not keep up with the high maintenance in the heat and drought of the summer so it looks bad. Even if you are a lawn geek like me and maintain your tifway 419 to the book, the best you can hope for (assuming you can water your lawn- which currently is not allowed) is 5-6 months of green grass. And you will have to do most of your mowing when it's unbearably hot outside. If this sounds good to you then you have poor taste in turf but more power to you. I'm done with this thread.

Since I live 24 miles north of downtown I think I can speak to growing Bermuda here. It is at it's peak green and healthy looking from mid july through september.
I'll post you some pictures from last year.

Oh, and iforget...comments like "It is builder grade sod for low end housing developments" really piss me and my neighbors off. Pretty sanctimonious. We all have 419 and my house recently appraised for $425...not what I would call lowend. if you don't live hear, keep your social comentary to your self.

Wrager wrote: "It is at it's peak green and healthy looking from mid july through september. "

It looks like we agree on this. What is the problem?
That's 2 and a half months of "peak green" provided there is rain.
Evidently you satisfied with only 2.5 months of peak green but most people are not if you ask them.

I thought you were done with this thread?

I thought I was too but I wanted to just let wrager know that I didn't mean to offend them and that it looked like we were actually in agreeance. I didn't mean to suggest he lives in a low-end home but builders are builders and they don't care about your lawn. They just want to sell homes and make $$$.

iforgotitsonevermind, The facts I stated above are not incorrect and you could see them for yourself if you did a little research. In an "average" year Bermuda greens up in mid march and goes dormant the last week of November. I have documented this with 50 plus years of growing experience. Lack of water will do most any turf in but drought affects all grasses, not just Bermuda. In fact my Bermuda is much more drought tolerant that St. Augustine or Zoysia. You cannot abuse any grass and expect it to perform well. Your reasoning about contractors and their use of Bermuda simply shows some weird insecurity you have . It's like you're saying contractors are bad and the grass they plant is all cheap and bad and they bury paint cans when they landscape. Dude you should seek professional help. I'm not sure where you and auteck get your facts but you can't make stuff up that is more incorrect. Auteck states that rye grass will do better in Atlanta??? Ha. Oh come on man you must be joking?? Good grief what are you drinking man?

rdaystrom,

Actually Floratam st augustine will outperform bermuda when left on their own... Floratam is very drought tolerant like bermuda... At least in zone 8b or warmer. Not much of cold tolerance though.

rdaystrom,

Your more recent figures may be correct with regards to average greenup time being in mid march.
Atlanta is on the fringe of it's potential planting range. You don't see much bermuda in the north georgia mountains except at the occasional fast food restaurant or some commercial property in parking lots. So Atlanta is the last stop on the bermuda train. But I'm sure in areas it's better adapted like florida and gulf coast and the southwest, where there really isn't much by way of seasons, And perhaps where YOU live, I would be surprised if it didn't green up in march on average.

Second of all, I am not disputing bermuda's drought tolerance. But evidently you've never seen what happens to bermuda after a couple weeks of no rain with a outdoor watering ban in effect.

Bermuda survives drought allright. It comes back every time when the rain pattern changes in October. Unfortuntely it has already begun going dormant in October so the color is muted. Some lawns in protected areas stay a light sea green color into november.

rdaystrom,

I want to say that sometimes people can be some narrowed minded... You've got to think outside the box for a change.

I meant what I said about growing PRG in Atlanta, yes, Atlanta. In a head to head competition between bermuda and PRG in the Atlanta area based on which one is better looking (of course, this is subjective)which one stay green the longest, which one will not invade your flower beds, which one you will mow when the weather is right for the human body, which one will not create Thatch, which one will be the darkest green without Golf course maintenance; the winner is clear - Perennial Ryegrass. Bermuda will lose on all those categories to PRG, plain and simple.

You are probably thinking long term survival, in that case, yes, bermuda will win all the time and any time to almost any grass type.

Most people get a lawn because they want to see green and lush grass year round if possible; not brown most of the time.

Currently, Atlanta has water restrictions, how are you going to keep bermuda green during its peak time?

PRG will be green during its peak time, and with water only from mother nature. The turf quality that all Elite Perennial Ryegrasses can achieve are nearly equal to those found in many golf courses around the world. And those can be had for a lot less money that it will take to keep bermuda green during its peak time IF you can/able or allowed to irrigate.

Bluegrasses grow in Atlanta as well. There used to be a forum member here that experimented with bluegrass in GA with great success. The areas north of Atlanta like Buckhead, Alpharetta and the likes, have very similar weather to Charlotte, NC; where kentucky bluegrass grows and Turf-type tall fescue dominates the landscape.

Bentgrasses can be grown there as well, as nearly, if not all of the golf courses in GA use it in their putting greens. But if desired as a home lawn, then better leave that to turf professionals, lawn geeks, and/or turf aficionados.

Fine fescue grows very well in all of zone 7 and 8 in the shade, nothing new here; but in case you're wondering.

Great day.

Auteck

I hadn't really thought about PRG before but even ANNUAL ryegrass, that ugly crap they sell 50lb bags for $18 is green and actively growing for a longer period of time than bermuda or any of the warm season grasses. It germinates readily in just the rain and even if you had to reseed every fall, it's still an improvement over the 5-6 month bermuda growing season for Atlanta and the Georgia piedmont. So what if it dies? Just sprinkle some more see out in the autumn.

well Ive been wasting money all last year , buying 1 pd. bags of LaPrima, LaPrima XD and P-77 Bermuda types. I was interseeding it into my multi grassbackyard of St. Aug. and cheap centipede and cheap Sahara Bermuda that I seeded the year prior. Well again at $21 for 1 pd. bags and P-77 for $24 in a mulch combo bag from Lowes..the crap is trash.
I suffered a late freeze on my front St. aug yard last month and am inter-seeding with this new Combat Extreme stuff..the other threads seemed positive about it so Im going for it...
Forget the expensive Bermuda...Oh did I mention that the cheap Sahara Bermuda that I seeded when I did the centipede did well ?

No offense but what kind of lawn geeks are you people?

Why would anyone mix a hodgepodge of grasses like that? They are totally incompatible with one another.
That's like deciding to remodel a building that is set for demolition!

I just want to clear up one thing. I stated in an earlier post that "planting KBG and Fescue would be a waste of time due to the time of the year." I want to emphasize the end of that statement ". . . time of the year." KBG and Fescue lawns in both NC and Ga can be grown successfully. However, due to the time of the year, it is less likely for root establishment to take place before the hot temps come around. That is why I stated that KBG and Fescue would be a waste of time. It is just too risky at this time. I'd hate to see some one buy expensive seed that eventually dies due to the heat. These types of grasses are best when planted in the Fall so that they can be established in time enough to survive our hot and often dry southern summers. Get that Auteck?

You guys are nothing if not entertaining. Why does everyone seem to have an agenda/bias towards their favorite cultivar? Retarded. Bottom line is this. Regardless of the micro-management of geographical locations that many of you seem to revel in, to grow and maintain golf-course type turf (which I see mentioned frequently) you better be ready to beat mother nature into submission. Every other day mowing, frequent irrigation, 14 day chlorothalonil (Daconil) and Bayer Aliette for disease and Pythium blight prevention and curative regimen. Several different fertilizer app's twice a month at least, 24-0-12, 46-0-0, and 0-0-18, spring and fall aeration, pest control, weed control, wetting agents, etc, etc. Whoever recommended Bent for home lawn use is out of their minds. I would love to see that PRG lawn after being subjected to hot, damp, humid evenings. It's all relative fellas. If you want to put in the time and money to do it, it's do-able with ANY of the cultivars mentioned. If you are not willing to do it, throw down some tall fescue and mow once a month like all of your neighbors, but there is no sense posting here like you all are golf course superintendents.

reelfanatic, hey now. Don't go trashing tall fescue. :-) My TTTF lawn looks much better than many (not all) of the KBG lawns posted on this site.

WOW , Iforgot..your people person-skills or online comm. technique is very abrasive..i think that folk hear your tone wayy before they hear your message.
But your right about my backyard , its a hodgepodge..but finding the right combo of grass charachteristics for florida heat is not easy. i jacked it the first year with the centipede -sahara mix but its taken well ! the st. aug. hangs in there too ! soo..I was hoping to go to a better quality bermuda...to "invade" it all but the "good stuff" couldnt hang. my front is all st. augie...that is until this Combat extreme blends in !
Later dude !
Will

Sorry Will. I know I am that's why I am supposed to be using âºâºâº thoughout my post but I keep forgetting âº.

Reelfanatic, I know someone with a bentgrass lawn in Georgia and they don't do anything special with it. The first year they used fungicides but they no longer do. They lose some during the summer but it fills in the bare spots come October and responds really well to everyday scotts turfbuilder. This time of year it grows like crazy too. It gives them the look of low cut bermuda but it's green year round. They started it from seed and reel cut it weekly around 3/4"

Also, reelfanatic, I think what you are not understanding about the piedmont, is that it doesn't usually have the warm humid nights that the coastal plain has. The summers are very dry and the nighttime lows are typically in the 60's. The nights are obviously more humid than the day but it's nothing like the coastal plain that you are probably thinking of because that's where most people visit or drive through on their way to florida.

One more thing, Auteck stated that "you don't have to kill off annual rye." Only someone that has never over-seeded a warm season grass with annual rye would make that statement. Unless the Spring is abnormally scorching hot, annual rye will thrive through May in the Southeast. This will delay the green-up of a warm season lawn until much later in the summer. Therefore, you should definitely KILL OFF your rye in early Spring if you want a nice-looking lawn in the summer. I am very surprized that no one on here corrected Auteck's mistake. Texas weed, where are you?

Anual rye grass doesn't look nice and overseeding has limited usefullness. It will give the appearance of a green lawn from a thousand feet away but germination is usually very spotty with overseeding the dense thatchy warm season creepers. You should definitely kill it off because it will hinder the already minimal growing season of the warm season grass.

mmqb said: Texas weed, where are you?
I am out of this one giving Auteck and iforgotitsonevermind all the rope they need.

I think texas-weed and I agree on all the points although I don't believe he is all that familiar with the north georgia climate and it's pretty clear his bias favors bermuda because he grows it commercially. In fact we're so much on the same page that I suggest to everyone to buy sod instead of seed.

mmqb,

I didn't write anything that needs to be corrected, annual ryegrass dies on its own - no chemicals need to be applied.

You didn't express yourself right, and now, somehow, I made a mistake.

You need to go back to school and learn how to READ and WRITE before posting babosadas in this forum.

It dies on it's own but it's better to kill it because coupled with the winter kill and slow wakening period, the last thing the warm season grass needs is more competition from vigorous growing annual rye grass during the mild spring period.

And I'm sure there will be lots of winter kill on the bermuda this year as the mercury dipped down to single digits in the atlanta area a couple of times this past winter.

I made the mistake last year, overseeding with ARG in one small area. My bremuda, in that area, didn't look good until late June. I should have killed it off in the spring.

We use ARG at the driving range. We don't kill it, we wait until dies on its own.

The ARG hangs un there until about late June to early July, by then the Bermuda is as its best from there on until about Mid to Late September.

Of course, the driving range gets cut every other day, fertilized every 30 days and with Golf grade fertilizers - the transition is seemless.

The driving range looks great year round.

Auteck,
Your posts are quite abrasive these days and it is a little irritating. When you advise people on here, I don't think it is wise to give them suggestions based off of golf-course practices. I doubt that most people on here can give their lawns the daily attention and work that golf courses receive.

Now that this has all been said, I hope to hear more positive responses from you in the future.

Oh yeah, good luck with your PRG, the local weather forcast has 4 straight days of 90 degree temps for next week.

@Auteck...... In what capacity are you employed at a golf course?

Did not mean to come across that way, but you too need to bring your tone down a little bit - I'll do my part.

I'm not suggesting people to treat their home lawns like golf courses treat their grass, I'm simply pointing out that there is a way to do it and some people might want to go that route.

I don't need any good luck, my Bluegrass/rye lawn will be just fine. It's too early in the season for those 90 degree days to harm ANY cool season grass.

We still have dark green bunches of PRG everywhere at the golf course from overseeding 5 years ago - and after all those hot and dry summers...

PRG is tougher than you think.

Can someone please tell me if there is a forum where someone can go to get some ADVISE on lawn care, and in the meantime those of you who want to argue can take it elsewhere, you aren't offering any help/advise to those who post here. (Notice the original poster hasn't been back)

Nobody arguing here. There may be a little debate going on but I think with the exception of rdstrom (who I may have rubbed the wrong way apparently by poking fun at the fact they advocate buying seed from walmart) we are all pretty much in agreeance.

reelfanatic,

I assist the Superintendent at a local public golf course - I do it as a hobby.

Auteck

maidinmontana asked:
Can someone please tell me if there is a forum where someone can go to get some ADVISE on lawn care

There are a few but you might try this one and see what you think. Pretty straight up answers from both professionals and enthusiast. This kind of thread would not be tolerated nor be seen for any length of time.

I love that bestlawn site. I am a regular member there as well and can attest to the knowledge base.

maidinmontana said,
Can someone please tell me if there is a forum where someone can go to get some ADVISE on lawn care, and in the meantime those of you who want to argue can take it elsewhere, you aren't offering any help/advise to those who post here. (Notice the original poster hasn't been back)

Sorry maidin but there is no Arguing About Lawns Forum. When people want to discuss this stuff, this is where they take it. It happens in all forums. Other places to not look if you don't like arguing are the food and plumbing forums! One of the things you learn in public forums is how to filter out the stuff that doesn't matter. It takes some time to learn that. The OP's questions were answered in a day or two. Now the forum is open to the nuances of climatology flavored with beer, other Internet sites, and TV images of the Master's Tournament.

Actually I was learning a bit about bermuda - that is until texas-weed left to avoid getting tangled in the rope. Personally I don't care about the micro idiosyncrasies of Atlanta's climate/lot size versus Dallas or anywhere else, but if y'all can relate that topic to growing grass, then go for it.

This thread has reminded me of just a few short years ago when Tif 419 was The Holy Grail of hybrid bermuda grass. It also reminded me of the just a few short years ago when any kind of bermuda was the Anti Christ. Oh, wait a minute, it still is. It also reminded me of all the 'discussions' I participated in defending organic lawn care before the Organic Lawn Care forum was started. [sigh] Good times [/sigh] For the record, I have never learned anything listening to myself. I learned 90% of what I know about lawn care from listening to discussions just like this one.

I know this is snippy, maidin, but I can't resist. Maybe I could ADVICE you on a spell checker.

For those of you who are counting my messages, I don't want to disappoint you: deeply and infrequently!

Hybrid bermuda is just swell.... when it is planted in a suitable place and climate. I advocate it's use in florida where it's green year round and doesn't even need supplemental fertilizer and most of the atlantic and gulf coastal areas.

well the combat extreme is getting off to a GREAT start. its germinating in 5 days ! and its working into the st. aug. well. conversely my expensive laprima xd seedlings are thin and anemic and spotty.
i would have loved to see the laprma take root but combat is proving itself

Take some pictures.

Autek
post mortem on the combat extreme ..it dried up like straw in the JAX heat and sun. weve had great rain though..so its not water. Gotta agree with Weed :
I bashed my LaPrima XD seeding from last year as a dud. I was wrong the drenching rains this year has brought that stuff in full strenght...just took a year to do it and my hydration system alone with no help from mom-nat just didnt cut it. I over-seed my LaPrima into SA in the front and into Centipede in the backyard...they work as a GREAT team.