If you can find a multigraft of the varieties you like, that is a good option. But finding such a tree seems unlikely. I think you'll do better with individual trees. They don't need to be all in one hole. If you can find the trees on M26, M9, M27, or similar size-controlling rootstock you can plant them very close and control size by summer pruning.

Three or four trees in one hole works. But planting them 2ft by 6-8ft works just as well. Apples on these rootstocks are really easy to keep under control unless you have very good soil and water and fertilize too much.

I think if you plant the five varieties mentioned all in one hole or close together, you will have a fine little apple orchard with almost year around fruit to eat. You have very early producers and very good keepers. Good luck!!!

I enjoy grafting and seeing the successes, so I would choose the multigraft for that reason alone. But please note I haven't tried the three in one hole approach.

As for which to use as the rootstock, I would pick the one with the greatest resistance to the diseases that are known to be an issue in your area for the bottom tree. If you liked you could graft sequentially each year: Tree Number 2 about three feet off the ground on top of Tree Number 1, and then #3 would be grafted high on #2 the next year. Or you could prune #1 to a vase and graft #'s 2 and 3 to different branches of the vase. A third approach, and one which I use with fair success on a pear, is to prune to a central leader and graft varieties to a few of the main scaffold branches. Be warned: this can become an addiction!

Others here may have better advice- these are just my thoughts "FWIW".

I agree with fruitnut on this one. In part though because I have heard of so many grafts failing on commercially sold multi-grafted trees. Dave Wilson nursery which popularized this type of planting says you don't need a dwarfing root stock. Planting trees that close to each other automatically reduces vigor and size as they are all fighting for the same root space and nutrients. Its more important that they all have the same root stock and that they are all planted at the same time. If you plant two one year and one the next the trees planted the previous year will choke out the new tree.

If you can do your own grafting though as marknmt recommends you may do much better. After all if you put two or three grafts of each variety on each tree if one or two fail you are still good to go.

Girlbug;

Don't do the multi-graft; Anna will hog all the energy, followed closely by Dorsett Golden; whatever else is grafted on will wimper along and stay the same size as when it was grafted and never bear.

You will not find these on M27 rootstock; your best bet is to see if they are on semi-dwarf, which you should plant very closely together for size control. You will still have to do some summer pruning.

Applenut

Applenut, my method of dealing with various levels of vigor in a multigraft is to graft by tiers (instead of branches) on a central leader tree starting with the most vigorous variety at the base.

I can't figure out why this is not a standard technique as it works perfectly in helping to maintain the Christmas tree shape of an apple tree because in monovars the top tends to outgrow the base.

For GB I agree that full dwarf root stocks would be the best solution if she can give the midgets the attention to water and rodent control that they'll need.

Girlbug: You've got extremely good advice from the experts here. In fact, the advice isn't really conflicting, it's just preferential and generalized to "all other things being equal" kind of thing; there is no way to provide an easy, specific, right/wrong answer for you unless you can share more information. Such things from "would you enjoy researching and experimenting with grafting" to your soil type and planting location, how established your irrigation method is, discipline for pruning, etc.

For example, planting in a typical track-home backyard can have obvious gotchas, like near a solid fence that can limit light availability to one side. This is troublesome to multi-grafts varieties purchased retail, since they are usually grafted to each face one direction and the shaded variety will not thrive. But multiple trees closely planted would probably work fine when planted in-line. Or you can graft them yourself and face them appropriately, but as stated above by the last two posts, care must be given to understand the vigor of each variety to determine placement to increase your success.

Although DWN does state the multiple-hole method doesn't require dwarf rootstock, there are certainly some very common examples wherein this is misleading. Light, water, & nutrients greatly influence growth, so putting trees in competition for these (combined with summer pruning) is the stated way of dwarfing. The DWN multiple-tree/one-hole explanation is on the "backyard home orchard" page -- if your location is very large wherein X trees planted "close" are not competing very much, the dwarf rootstock may be better suited -- otherwise full-sized trees will require significantly more pruning to keep them in check.

Grafting requires preparation via knowledge and tools/supplies, both fairly easy to appropriate IMO. But that's a roadblock for some personalities. The multiple-tree method becomes attractive: no extra brain work, just a little more muscle required; no extra tools or supplies, faithful ol' shovel will do.

Make sense?

Okay, I got more info than I bargained for. Let's see if I got this straight:

It would be easiest for me to do the 3 in 1 planting unless I enjoy the challenge of learning to graft. Planting on a semidwarf rootstock closely together will naturally dwarf the trees but I will still need to do some summer pruning.

Harvestman has a technique for grafting which is not standard but which would offset the vigor of Dorsett and Anna so that the whole tree would be a balanced Christmas tree shape. Otherwise there's the open vase shape in which DG and A will dominate.

Have I got it right so far?

Here is my planting area: a long brick planter that runs alongside my driveway. The total length of it is 3' by 32', but the area I am putting the apple trees in is only 12' long. It gets full sun all day long and some sprinkler water but mostly I plan on watering it myself with a hose at least the first 2 seasons. The soil is clay but I've spent 5 years enriching it with organic mulch and compost, so hopefully it is good for apple trees.

Grafting sounds fun but it looks like I may not have the right tools on hand for it. Perhaps a 3 in 1 planting works best for me here. I like the idea of a grafted tree but it does take some knowledge and I would be more comfortable if somebody could show me exactly where to place the grafts on that first attempt (Harvestman, you up for a trip to sunny So Cal? I can pay you in fig jam and lasagna).

So unless there's a grafting demo nearby it looks like a M111 rootstock is the healthiest semidwarf for my clay soil.

Very good grasp of what is written. Your specific answers puts us much further along -- maybe the experts above can provide more input at this point...

Guys??

I assume you're in CA. What direction is the planter aligned lengthwise (East-West, N-S, etc)

FYI grafting "tools" can be a clean box cutter blade. I'm guessing here, but $15 worth of other supplies to ensure success (tape, wax)? There are very good online tutorials (videos and text) all over the place -- it's not hard to do. But you basically buy ONE tree first and get it established. Then graft a couple years later. If your graft fails, you usually know in a couple weeks and you can do it again!

If nothing is surrounding the planter area (neighbor trees, 2 story homes) in that a 10' tree will get full sun from all directions -- you can try to find a multi-graft with the varieties you like. Having one large multi-graft tree is a bit easier to care for (but not extremely different). 3 trees just require a bit more (and different) pruning to keep them in balance, ESPECIALLY if you choose very different vigor varieties. The middle one will get less light, the one facing east (most morning sun) will likely grow first, one variety may have long spindly branches, etc. When you finalize which ones, you can come back and get advice on planting order and spacing, etc.

I think the multiple trees being discussed were more dwarf, not the semi-dwarf M111 with theoretical dwarfing of only 85%.

All in all, it's easiest to have one M-111 tree multi-graft. But that's only if you can find it, since you're not doing it yourself.

If the folks who responded above provide conflicting information to my post, take their word for it.... ;-)

Have a good one,
Chris

Girlbug, Portland makes a very nice vacation from Southern California.

So come on up in the spring to The Home Orchard Society's Scion Exchange. They teach grafting and you can purchase rootstock and scions.

They also have experts sitting there doing custom grafts for a very small fee. You can get the varieties you want, grafted onto the rootstock that you want, and learn how to graft yourself at the same time.

Hi girlbug2, just thought I would provide a little light reading.

http://www.davewilsonforums.com/index.php/showthread.php?t=196

My two favorite video's They are long but also very informative and helpful. The videos are done by a UC Davis Professor and Master Gardener in your zone.

The Home Orchard Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcB10xujAIU&feature=channel

The Home Orchard Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xflTYwWvmos&feature=channel

Girlbug, I was raised in Topanga Canyon (near Malibu) but now live in NY state. I may not be back there for a while but you can do a simple graft onto a bare root tree near the top and turn your tree into 2 varieties the first season. Just pinch back nearby competition.

I'd put the graft at least 3 feet up depending on where you want to place the bottom branches. It's best done at first signs of coming out of dormancy (swollen bud).

If the graft grows vigorously(at least a couple feet) you can put on the 3rd variety the following year. There's lots of internet videos of simple grafting and it aint brain surgery.

When Applenut points out issues on grafting you're wise to listen. One example I experienced: I grafted Flemish Beauty on top of Barlett once some years ago and the FB has been trying to overgrow the Bartlett ever since. (Yes, those are pears, but the fact remains, these things happen.)

That said, grafting in a vertical sequence as Harvestman describes has its attractions, as does pruning your base tree to a vase and grafting each leg of the vase to a different variety.

A central leader with several varieties replacing the main scaffold branches is working well for me with a pear. Not all varieties will always play nice together, but I can replace those problem children when they appear. I think I have nine or ten cultivars on my tree now, with four of them bearing this year (it's a fairly new tree.) So far they are getting along well. Since I am space-challenged this is pretty much the way I have to do it if I want to play. (Olpea makes a charming distinction between orchard trees and pet trees. I keep pet trees!)

Good luck and have fun,

M

Hey guys, I consider myself a pretty experienced budder and I've had a lot of success with whip&tongue, cleft, and bark grafts. My greenhouse is full of trees with 3 to 8 varieties on each tree, all but one done myself. And I think you're making this multigrafting sound way too easy. Girlbug is a beginner. She's much more likely to have early success planting 3-5 trees on dwarf rootstock than trying to build a multi tree herself.

My buddy tried all year with a nearly endless supply of graftwood and then budwood and 50 rootstocks. His total of trees with multiple varieties now, zero. I grafted and budded about 10 trees for him. He got a couple of takes. When his technique didn't fail, the trees were too dry for the bark to slip. Throw in a few other problems like weeds, grasshoppers and hail; and very little got done. In fact a few trees successfully budded died.

Sure mutigrafting can work but chances are it will set a beginner back a couple years on getting fruit. Just finding the scions in the right condition can be difficult.

Also don't plant multiple trees in that small area on M111. I think you'll do better with M26 or M9.

>> I think you're making this multigrafting sound way too easy.

Yeah, which is why I suggested she plant one M111 and let it get established for a couple years. This should give her a chance to work through care issues and get experienced, before spending more time and money risking three trees (or one custom grafted tree at whip stage).

>>> Also don't plant multiple trees in that small area on M111
I was hoping someone would say that.

Girlbug2 Not all zone 9/10's are alike and some may be better than others. Where I live planting trees on a dwarfing root stock even one to a hole can be iffy. In general dwarfing root stocks are just not vigorous enough for hotter zone 9/10 locations. That on top of planting them all close together and competing against each other in zone 9/10 is not a good idea. At least not here and perhaps not where you live either.

I would hate to see you spend a lot of time and money and end up with trees that fail to thrive in your location. If I were you I would ask this same question on the forum over at Dave Wilson's Nursery. They are the experts on this kind of planting. Be sure to ask about preferred root stocks for your planting site and climate.

Here is a link that might be useful: Dave Wilson Nursery Forum

Hey there thisisme, the only answer you're going to get on DWN forum is from you, me, or cebury. That forum is so dead I can smell it from here :-)!! Me, ce, and you keep trying to inject a little life, but I think it's hopeless. I gave Craig a little boost in the behind but that probably won't help either as I haven't seen anyone from DWN post there in months. JMO

Your probably right fruitnut. When they first started the owners showed up from time to time but I guess not anymore.

Girlbug should now have a good idea of the issues at hand- and if not, Cebury can provide a clear synopsis for her. So I won't.

But this: whatever you do, there's a wealth of good will and good experience here for you to draw on. Like all wells this one benefits by being used, so lower your bucket and get to it. (Just promise to come around and share your learnings with others, eh?)

:-)M

If the graft doesn't take you just let 2 or 3 uprights grow the first season and graft all of them the next. Ones bound to take the second year. The graft will grow much faster the second year when the roots are established anyway.

On 111 the delay won't have much affect in slowing bearing as long as you choose 3 scaffolds for the first tier and don't cut them back unless it's absolutely necessary to get secondary branching going. With most varieties you're not going to get a substantial crop until at least the 5th year anyway.

Still, for a beginner the more dwarfing root stocks are easier to train. You barely have to master pruning at all. 111 is pretty high maintenance, which is good for me as I make half my living pruning fruit trees.

girlbug;

Don't take us too seriously; whatever way you plant Anna will give you apples the same year, and next year more than you can eat.

If your clay is really that heavy though, I worry about wooly aphid; M111 is resistant to it and may be your best bet. I have no problems keeping it small.

Applenut

LOL I stirred up the bee's nest with my questions!

Thanks for all of your advice, I have lots to ponder over the autumn while I sample apples. I only wish there had been some Dorsetts and Annas available in my supermarket this summer (you'd think, since they're so prolific. Hmmmm, another mystery).

I might just visit an orchard or two.

Hint: apples in the super market aren't really going to tell you what apples will taste like grown in your own yard.

There is a nursery in California I bought a multi grafted Apple tree from them. It is doing well. It has Gala, Golden delicious and Granny. Just you have to make sure with pruning that one variety is not going to take over. No fruit yet expected next season.

oregonwoodsmoke, if that's the case then the Pink Ladys I tried this week from the grocery store are merely great, and the homegrown ones will be simply AMAZING!

Except that Pink Lady stores so dam well that you can get excellent ones from the store.