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Corn Gluten Meal as a preemergent against weeds - llll

ZoysiaSod
10 years ago

Well, the clock is ticking. Pretty soon it'll be time to apply preemergent herbicide. I only use organic, natural products on my lawn ever since I had a horrible experience with some synthetic herbicides--and since synthetic chemicals kill the soil's natural, microscopic life like the beneficial bacteria and fungi that your grass depends upon to grow strong. Who wants weed-free grass if your grass isn't strong.

Here's a copy of world-renowned Doctor Nick Christians' instructions for the use of Corn Gluten Meal (CGM) as a preemergent herbicide. Dr. Christians discovered the preemergent qualities of CGM. Thank you Dr. Christians!

From:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&site=&q=cache:GKgkaWn2MY0J:http://www.7springsfarm.com/HOWTOUSECORNGLUTENMEAL.pdf+nick+christians+corn+gluten+meal&ct=clnk

HOW TO USE CORN GLUTEN MEAL

NICK CHRISTIANS

Iowa State University

Corn gluten meal works by inhibiting the root formation of germinating plants. It generally does not inhibit the roots of mature plants or transplants until your [sic] reach very high rates (80 pounds/1000 ft2 or higher). It should be applied before germination of the weeds. The weed will germinate and usually forms a shoot, but does not form a root. After germination, a short drying period is needed to kill the plants that have germinated but have not formed a root. Timing is critical. If it is too wet during germination, the plants will recover and form a root. (This is also true of chemical preemergence herbicides).

It is preemergence only, there is no postemergence effect on established weeds. In fact, it makes a great fertilizer for germinated weeds.

If it does not rain in 5 days of application, water it in with approximately 0.25 inches of water. Then leave a drying period after germination.

It will usually work for about 5 to 6 weeks following germination.

[ZoysiaSod's Note: Not sure but maybe Dr. Christians meant to say "following application"--not "following germination?" Or maybe he absolutely meant to say "following germination." It's hard to say. Consider the following passage from Paul Tukey's Organic Lawn Care Manual (Page 179), especially the sentence I highlighted below:


"....[CGM] must be on the ground two to three weeks prior to the expected germination of the target weed. For crabgrass in the North, that date can vary from early April to early May, whenever the forsythia and daffodils begin to bloom. For crabgrass in the South, the product should be applied around mid-March, when the flowers open on dogwood trees. If your target weeds generally emerge in different seasons from crabgrass, corn gluten may be also be [sic] utilized at other times of the year....The product inhibits seed germination of all types and therefore cannot be used within six weeks of overseeding a lawn. That means that in any given spring or fall, you will usually decide not to apply corn gluten but rather to spread new grass seed."

Now consider this quote from David Mellor's Lawn Bible:

"[CGM] should be applied four to six weeks before the time the seeds germinate."

By the way, Mellor's statement differs slightly from Tukey's "two to three weeks prior."

So these three authors raise two different questions in my mind.]

Back to Dr. Christians, the discoverer:

Rates will vary depending on crop and target weed. I generally recommend 20 lbs product per 1000 ft2. This provides about 1 lb [sic: 2 lbs?] of nitrogen per 1000 ft2. Some crops that are grown in rows can be treated in bands in the row and weeds can be tilled between rows. This makes it more economical to use in crop production. Test the material at rates from 10 lbs/1000 ft2 in 10 pound increments to as high as 80 lbs/1000 ft2.

It does not work well with seeded garden crops unless they are seeded deeply (radishes seem to be the exception and there may be others). Transplants or mature plants generally work well. Some producers put down a band, work it into the upper inch of soil, and then put the transplant in the band.

In garden and crop production, growers generally work out their own system, depending on their understanding of the crop they are growing and the weeds they are trying to control.

The material is generally about 10% nitrogen by weight. One hundred pounds has 10 lbs of nitrogen. [ZoysiaSod's note: "That's why I used 'sic' above after 1 lb."]

The nitrogen will release slowly over a 3 to 4 month period after application.

Comments (79)

  • texas_weed
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    OK Zs you can use any product you want. I have no problem with that. But your last post uses conclusion words like MAY BE EFFECTIVE. That is a huge clue.

    Anyway you have a Zoysia lawn right?

    So to use CGM as a per-emergence requires an application rate of 20 to 40 pounds per 1000/ft2. In terms of nitrogen that is 2 to 4 times over dose of nitrogen. Yep that will act as a per-emergence and burn most young weeds and grasses up.

    If you have Zoysia, in your area requires only two fertilizer applications per year at a rate of 1-pound of nitrogen per 1000/ft2. Once when greened up, and again about 8 to weeks later If over fertilized, Zoysia will be subject to very heavy thatch, insect, fungal, and disease problems and open you up to a world of hurt.

    So just 1 application of CGM at a rate appropriate for per-emergence application will be 2 to 4 times more nitrogen than your grass can handle. Not too mention the cost involved will cost you $40/1000/ft2 compared to about $5 using other products for both fertilizer and per-emergence that will not harm your grass and over dose it...

    With that said go for it. You pays your money, and you take your chances.

  • WHGANDNORAHG
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    U.S. university research indicates that Corn Gluten Meal DOES NOT CONTROL ANY weeds in ANY trials under ANY circumstances.

    There is NO evidence of pre- or post-emergence weed control.

    It is INCONCEIVABLE that ANY government agency would register and support a herbicide with such a LOW LEVEL of efficacy.

    At best, Corn Gluten Meal is a VERY WEAK HERBICIDE that MAY have some uses for do-it-yourself home-owner weed management.

    Unfortunately, Corn Gluten Meal CANNOT BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY as a COMMERCIAL product for use in the PROFESSIONAL LAWN CARE INDUSTRY.

    Most assuredly, NO government agency would NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS consider registering this type of product for use in the AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY.

    It appears as though some government agencies are using the PROFESSIONAL LAWN CARE INDUSTRY as the DUMPING-GROUND for BOGUS INFERIOR Green Alternative Pesticides.

    Full effective control can only be attained with conventional pest control products, such as 2,4-D and other herbicides, which will provide a very high per cent kill of damaging weeds.

    2,4-D has been used for the control of broad-leaved weeds in the Urban Landscape SINCE 1946.

    2,4-D has a 65-YEAR UNBLEMISHED SAFETY RECORD regarding long-term risk to health.

    For more information about Corn Gluten Meal, and other Green Alternative Pesticides, please go to the following links ...

    http://pesticidetruths.com/toc/corn-gluten-meal-herbicide-dismal-failure/

    http://pesticidetruths.com/toc/green-alternatives-bogus-dismal-failures/

    WILLIAM H. GATHERCOLE AND NORAH G

    NORAHG is the National Organization Responding Against HUJE that seek to harm the Green space industry.

    NORAHG is a NATIONAL NON PROFIT NON PARTISAN organization that does not accept money from corporations or governments or trade associations, and represents NO VESTED INTERESTS WHATSOEVER.

    NORAHG is dedicated to reporting the work of RESPECTED and HIGHLY RATED EXPERTS who promote ENVIRONMENTAL REALISM and PESTICIDE TRUTHS.

    http://pesticidetruths.com/

    Here is a link that might be useful: The Pesticide Truths Web-Site

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  • grasshole
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Oh boy.........

    You guys don't know what color the lines are painted in the middle of the road, do you?

  • grassboro
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I ate a whole bag of pop corn reading this last night. I better go to the store and get some more.

    Oh, did I mention pop corn. I read that pop corn will ....

  • grasshole
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    If you read it, it's true.

  • ZoysiaSod
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    WHGANDNORAHG wrote:
    > U.S. university research indicates that Corn Gluten Meal DOES NOT CONTROL ANY weeds in ANY trials under ANY circumstances.

    This simply is NOT true. If I weren't polite, I'd just call it a lie. No offense :-)

    You also wrote, "Full effective control can only be attained with conventional pest control products, such as 2,4-D and other herbicides, which will provide a very high per cent kill of damaging weeds."

    This is funny. I see now you're not a liar; you're just a comedian :-)

    Why would I ever use 2,4-D again? [chuckle]

    Some weeds need to be sprayed 2 and 3 times with 2,4-D before they die. You spray them once, then a couple weeks later, you gotta spray them again--and then maybe even a third time after another two weeks, you'll have to spray them yet again. The weed chapter in the Scotts Lawns book is full of passages where they tell you you'll have to use herbicides two or three times to eventually kill weeds. (Many weed species are just hard to kill with herbicides.)

    Why should I waste all my time spraying the same weeds multiple times with 2,4-D when I can simply pull them out in one fell swoop?

    Yellow woodsorrel pulls out easily. So do Purslane and Spurge.

    Last summer I used 2,4-D to spray yellow woodsorrel, the very common weed with the 3-lobed, heart-shaped leaves. The weed quickly yellowed; but recovered in a matter of 2 or 3 weeks. I thought to myself why should I spray it again, and possibly then again? I simply pulled it out.

    I sprayed a purslane weed with 2,4-D last summer. The thing began drooping the next day. But after less than a week, the weed was standing tall and upright again. So I pulled it out. Pulling it out took a lot less time than using 2,4-D.

    I pulled out lots of Dallisgrass last year along a fence line. Haven't seen it since. And I didn't poison my soil in the process of spraying 2,4-D or Roundup/glyphosphate. No beneficial bacteria, fungi, arthropods, and other creatures beneficial to the grass were killed.

    Each weed is different in choosing the best way to attack it. Some weeds you can simply pull out in one fell-swoop. Other weeds like crabgrass and henbit can be controlled with a single spraying of 5-percent white distilled vinegar (available at your grocery store).

    Boing water is a ruthless killer. Heat up a kettle, and you have heavy-duty weed control for your driveway, sidewalks, rock motes, and other places. You probably won't want to use boiling water in your lawn, because it will quickly kill your grass along with the weed.

    A gas flame torch can also be used on weeds like dandelions that have a thick taproot. Pull out the dandelion, and then torch the top of its taproot; otherwise the dandelion will grow back from its taproot. (I don't know how well this works, because I haven't tried it yet--I'm having trouble finding my gas flame torch after moving to St. Louis last summer. It's somewhere in the unpacked stuff. Books I've read like The Organic Lawn Care Manual, however, have endorsed the flame torch method, but they didn't mention for which weeds it would be effective. My guess is it will work with dandelions. Be careful you don't burn your house down. If you're worried about it, just skip the torch. I haven't used it yet. Lots of weeds don't even have thick tap roots, so the torch isn't necessary for most weeds.

    Using synthetic herbicides and synthetic fertilizers will poison your soil. They kill very helpful bacteria, fungi, and other creatures that your grass really needs. I'm no expert by any means, but the following is from my post in the Jamur Zoysia thread (You'll also want to read the Organic Lawn Care Manual and Teaming With Microbes):
    If you want to keep your grass healthy, you won't use any artificial, synthetic fertilizer [or synthetic herbicides]. Those synthetic feritlizers are so salty, they'll kill the beneficial bacteria, fungi, and other microorganisms in the soil which grass normally relies on. And with those organisms in the soil dead, your zoysia will then become dependent on the synthetic fertilizer for food.

    Grass depends on microorganisms **in the soil** to break down organic matter and produce the food the grass then eats.
    But the synthetic fertilizers feed the grass roots directly, **bypassing the soil system.** The synthetic fertilizers also kill the microorganisms in the soil. So then the grass can't get its food from any other source other than the synthetic fertilizers. Synthetic fertilizer is like fast food. It's junk food. You want your grass eating good food, and it can't with the microorganisms in the soil dead.

    If you want to fertilize your lawn, add some slow-release *Organic* fertilizer during zoysia's most active growing period, which is the summer. So near summer, maybe May or June, use a spreader to apply soybean meal, alfalfa meal, corn gluten meal, or other *Organic* fertilizer. Or you can apply compost too. In fact, you can go ahead and apply compost most anytime. Lots of beneficial bacteria, fungi, and organic matter in compost.

    Your lawn isn't just the grass. Your lawn is the soil, the microorganisms in the soil, and the grass as a whole system :-)

    You can't favor one over the other two. If you do, eventually they'll all suffer.

    Hi Texas-weed, I'll reply to your post soon--a little later. My fingers are fingered-out right now :-)

  • grasshole
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I wonder if ZoysiaSod and WHGANDNORAHG have ever been spotted at the same place at the same time?

    Awfully similar rant styles, eh?

  • ZoysiaSod
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I am not WHGANDNORAHG.

    Try to make your posts useful, grasshole.

  • grassboro
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    ZoysiaSod, you have many post here touting the virtues of CGM is as a pre-emergent. I believe everyone who has contributed to this discussion is of a dissenting opinion regarding the effectiveness of CGM as a pre-emergent.
    Have you ever had success using CGM? I ask because you state often that you are new to grass care (8 months) and that you are not an "expert". You also stated "I may not use corn gluten meal this year as a preemergent. I might use it, but I'm leaning against it.". You mention cost as the sole factor for not using it. That is a shame because I wish you would use it and report back about your experience and details of your application. Cost is a factor in reasonable lawn maintenance choices.

    Dchall�s hands on experience (i.e. "20 pounds per 1,000 every month from March through October") is very telling. It is clear he gave it a good shot to work. I know enough from his past posts on this and other forums that he would be thrilled if CGM was really effective. He has been a lawn enthusiast and more specifically an organic lawn enthusiast for quite a while. I have also seen hands on reports from participants on other lawn care forums that have come to the same conclusion that CGM is not very effective. We can all Google stuff and read many different reports and studies and that is all good but I come to forums like this to see what experiences real people have in real lawns in the real world. Based on this evidence there is no way I could be persuaded to trust CGM on my lawn as a pre-emergent.

  • ZoysiaSod
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Hi Grassboro. Yes, I'm new to grass care, so I haven't tried Corn Gluten Meal or any preemergent yet. That's why I posted the first message in this thread: so I could collect all the instructions for CGM's use that I've found in books and online. The instructions will be useful if I or anyone else tries CGM this year.

    I don't know why Dchall_san_antonio's CGM regimen didn't work.

    I think I recall reading Dchall_san_antonio saying he didn't use an Iowa State certified CGM product. So that could be part of it, as explained in a post found in the thread linked below.

    All I can do is point to my November 21, 2011 post in the following thread that lists some reasons why CGM doesn't always work:

    http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/lawns/msg11165130747.html

    The thread is called Strawberry-like weed in lawn, in case the link ever breaks in the future.

  • texas_weed
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I think I recall reading Dchall_san_antonio saying he didn't use an Iowa State certified CGM product. So that could be part of it, as explained in a post found in the thread linked below.

    Sorry but that is just plain silly. CGM is CGM, no matter how it is packaged.

  • ZoysiaSod
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Texas-weed wrote:
    > Sorry but that is just plain silly. CGM is CGM, no matter how it is packaged.

    Sorry, it's not silly :-) The web page linked below provides lots of really good, helpful information about the proper use of Corn Gluten Meal, including this excerpt:

    "Labeling: "Corn gluten meal" sold as animal feed is not the same thing. It is not licensed by Iowa State, so the university is not compensated when you buy it; and it often does not contain the right protein concentration to achieve seed death. I have received many emails from listeners who thought they were getting a huge break on the price, only to discover they were simply feeding their emerging crabgrass.

    "Products licensed by Iowa State will say something like "pre-emergent herbicide" on the label, have the correct protein concentration, and carry complete instructions for proper use. They are more expensive than animal feed CGM because they use a much higher quality gluten--which sells at a premium--and the manufacturer pays that fee to the university to fund research to find more cool stuff like this. By law, animal feed gluten cannot say anything about herbicidal effects and will not have directions for any weed-killing use. It also might not work--did I mention that?"

    [End of quote]

    Here is the link for the web page where I excerpted the 2 paragraphs above:

    http://www.gardensalive.com/article.asp?ai=753

  • ZoysiaSod
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    ....So having used animal feed CGM, Dchall_san_antonio didn't properly prevent against the emergence of weed seeds. He probably got more weed seeds emerging because the animal feed CGM acted as a fertilizer to both the weed seeds and the grass.

  • texas_weed
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    ZS the only difference between a bag of CGM marked as Animal Feed, and one marked as Fertlizer with a (ISU Patent Tradermark) is a 400% price difference with the extra payment going to IS in the form of a ROYALTY PAYMENT. That is it and nothing more.

    Any grain mill in the country can bag CGM and label it as FERTLIZER proving they purchase the Royalty rights from ISU to do so and pay ROYALTIES on each bag they sack up.

    I know this for fact, the grain mill I do business with packages CGM and sold as Fertilizer. About 3 years ago I was going to have them make me a production run of CGM labeled as Catfish food and sell at 1/4 the price as the exact same bag as Fertlizer, the only difference was the label on the BAG.

    So yeah if you have the notion their is a difference between a bag of CGM listed with ISU trademark and one labeled as Animal Feed go right ahead and buy the one with ISU stamped on it and pay 400% more for it. As PT Barnum said: There is a Sucker Born Every Minute.

  • grasshole
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    There IS a lower protein product called corn gluten FEED, not meal.

    I am 100% confident that texasweed and Mr. Hall know the difference and are not confusing the 2.

  • ZoysiaSod
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Well, Texas-weed, I don't know. I mean the author of that web page at GardensAlive is Mike McGrath (his name appears near the bottom of the page). He also hosts a radio show. You both sound pretty knowledgeable, though. Hard for me to choose. I'm sure you could host a radio show too--you're so knowledgeable.

    I remember reading a web page a couple months ago authored by Dr. Nick Christians, the professor who discovered CGM's preemergent qualities in the mid-1980's. The professor said on that page that many of the CGMs on the market today do not have the necessary protein concentrations.

    They all have nitrogen, of course, but apparently not all have enough of the right proteins in the right amounts--whatever that means. I can't find the link to that page anymore. Maybe a chemist can lend a hand here.

  • grasshole
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    There IS a lower protein product called corn gluten FEED, not meal.
    I am 100% confident that texasweed and Mr. Hall know the difference and are not confusing the 2 if it matters.

    Amended above post. I don't know if it matters.

  • texas_weed
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Read the ingredients on the label. IF CGM is all that is listed well.....

  • ZoysiaSod
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I'm not sure they know the difference.

    No offense, Texas-weed, but you wrote:

    "....the only difference between a bag of CGM marked as Animal Feed, and one marked as Fertlizer with a (ISU Patent Tradermark) is a 400% price difference..."

    AND you wrote:

    "Any grain mill in the country can bag CGM and label it as FERTLIZER [providing] they purchase the Royalty rights from ISU to do so..."

    Sorry to point this out, Texas-weed (because I like you), but it's not bags of CGM marked as FERTILIZER that need to pay a royalty to Iowa State U. It's bags of CGM marked as weed killer or preemergent that have to pay the royalty.

    Bradfield Organics markets CGM as fertilizer, so their price is cheaper than CGM marketed as preemergent weed killer.

  • ZoysiaSod
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Animal feed CGM and fertilizer CGM do NOT have to pay the royalty. Preemergent weed killer CGM has to pay the royalty.

  • grasshole
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Sounds like you're latching onto a simple wording mistake Z. These guys don't need me to speak for them, though.

    More failsafe excuses for the CGM crowd.

    One question. Is this YOUR lawn? Or your Mom and Dad's?

    I just ask because I remember you mentioning your mom and her garden before.

  • ZoysiaSod
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    No, it's not my lawn. You got that right.

    There's not much you get right though.

  • ZoysiaSod
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    After living alone for over 26 years, I moved in with my elderly parents to help them out with the physical tasks of living. I'm exactly 45 years old--no fudging on the numbers.

  • grasshole
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    This would've made so much more sense if you were the pompous high school kid I thought. LOL!

    Anyway, good on you for helping your parents out. I'll refrain from posting in your threads. Sorry I got under your skin.

  • texas_weed
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    ZS I am done with this thread. There is a Organic Section in this Forum I suggest you stop posting in this thread and take your discussion to the Organic Section.

  • dchall_san_antonio
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    ZS your enthusiasm and persistence is commendable. The CGM I use is the stuff from the Alliance Mills in Denton, TX. It is the same stuff used in the test at your link above from Friday the 17th. I found those test results to be luke warm. My findings might compare with theirs. When you have just 50% or so of effectiveness, the other 50% of ineffectiveness can look pretty bad in a hurry.

    CGM has been around forever. It is the proteinacious remains of the corn after grinding off all the carbohydrates for other uses. Since it was accumulating at alarming rates at the processing plants, it was dumped for years. Then it was dumped at feed lots for free just to get rid of it. Then the feed lots realized the value and started paying for it. It's used in animal feeds like dry dog and cat food, too. CGM is CGM. Corn gluten FEED is described at this link.

  • ZoysiaSod
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Thank you for that good pdf file, dchall_san_antonio. I'll post a relevant quote from the file:

    "Corn gluten 'feed' is often confused with corn gluten "meal." In contrast, the "meal" is high in bypass (ruminally undegradable) protein, while corn gluten feed has a high ruminally degradable protein fraction."

    So the undegradable (or undigestible?) protein is the good stuff with the preemergent effect, whereas the ruminally degradable/digestible stuff doesn't have as good of a preemergent effect. (Ruminally: think ruminant and stomach, I suppose).

    I don't know if radio show host McGrath got "Corn Gluten Feed" mixed up with "Corn Gluten Meal" or not, but in the quote from his web page I posted above, he did use the words "animal feed CGM".

    Also, Texas-weed referred to animal feed as CGM too when he wrote, "the only difference between a bag of CGM marked as Animal Feed, and one marked as Fertlizer....is....cost."

    And when he wrote, "So yeah if you have the notion their is a difference between a bag of CGM listed with ISU trademark and one labeled as Animal Feed go right ahead and buy the one with ISU stamped on it."

    But judging from the PDF you provided, I guess there is a continuum of Corn Gluten products from the Animal Feed that has low concentrations of the Undigestible preemergent proteins to the Iowa State-certified CGM that has a high concentration of the Undigestible preemergent proteins. The Digestible proteins don't have much of a preemergent effect.

    I guess the real question concerns the Corn Gluten in the middle of the continuum--in other words the Gluten that is not Animal Feed at one end AND NOT Iowa State-certified preemergent weed killer at the other end. This middle-of-the-road GLUTEN is sold as Grass Fertilizer and is probably "meal"--not "feed"--but can we say with certainty that this Grass Fertilizer CGM has the exact same percentage and concentration of the undigestible preemergent proteins as the Iowa State CGM? That's the question.

    We now know, thanks to the pdf, that the feed does NOT have the same percentage as the Iowa State-certified stuff, but we don't know what the numbers are for the Grass Fertilizer-labeled stuff.

    There does seem to be a continuum. Some brands of grass fertilizer CGM might have less than the Iowa State standard, and some might meet the standard, percentage-wise. We just don't know.

    I would hope that the Bradfield Organics Grass Fertilizer does have the same percentage of the preemergent proteins that the Iowa State-certified brands do, but I can't say for sure, and I can't say that the other brands of Grass Fertilizer do either. Maybe they're all the same or maybe they vary greatly in the percentage of the good stuff according to the brand you happen to buy. Some companies might like to make a little higher margin, maybe.

    However, we know for sure that the Iowa State-certified products like from "Espoma" and from "Concern" meet the standard.

  • ZoysiaSod
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Well, I don't have the money to buy the higher priced Iowa State-certified CGM from Espoma and Concern (they actually have something like the words "Preemergent weed killer" on their bags), so I guess I'll take my chances and buy the less expensive Bradfield Organics "Grass Fertilizer" CGM.

    I don't know if the Bradfield Organics "Grass Fertilizer" CGM (it's actually called their "Luscious Lawn" product) has the right type of proteins in the right concentration (I think at least 60 percent is necessary, according to a DirtDoctor thread), but I feel fairly confident it's as good as the certified preemergent brands because Paul Tukey mentions Bradfield Organics positively in the following article:

    Corn Gluten Meal as weed control?

    I went to BradfieldOrganics.com and clicked their "Find a Retailer" button. In Missouri, there are over 60 stores you can buy their 40-pound bag of "Luscious Lawn" CGM.

    I called about 5 stores in the St. Louis metro area. Hummert in Earth City was cheapest at $26.50 for the 40-pound bag--probably from last season (4500 Earth City Expressway).

    Fenton Feed Mill (412 Water Street in Fenton) had the next best price at $28.35, but she said it's definitely last year's CGM. OK Hatchery Feed & Garden Store in Kirkwood had the next best price at $39. One store wanted $44. (Damn, that old DirtDoctor thread had people buying 50-pound bags of CGM for $14.)

    Also found out Bradfield Organics used to be a division of Saint Louis-based Purina before Nestle bought Purina. Bradfield Organics was spun off and is now part of Land O'Lakes of Saint Paul, Minnesota. Bradfield still has a large presence in Missouri with a mailing address in metro Saint Louis: Brentwood.

    Do you think this $28 one-year-old CGM will be as effective as fresher CGM? They say not to use last year's grass seed because it will have a lower germination rate. I hope one-year-old CGM is as good as this year's CGM.

    I found the link where the Iowa State professor says to buy wisely:

    At http://www.hort.iastate.edu/directory/gettherealthing he says to "Get the real thing":

    "In recent years, we have seen an increased substitution of corn gluten feed and distillers grain for real corn gluten meal. This is often sold at feed stores or local garden stores. These products are not the real thing. They are not corn gluten meal and they will not work. If you want real corn gluten meal, be sure that you are buying from a licensed dealer or someone who is carrying product from a licensed dealer."

    I guess by licensed dealer, he means Iowa State University-certified dealers like Espoma, Concern, and W.O.W. I can't afford it. I guess I'll take my chances with Bradfield Organics Luscious Lawn. Or maybe I'll just save even more money, and buy the Bradfield Organics Luscious Lawn & Garden product which is alfalfa meal instead of Corn Gluten Meal. The alfalfa will probably have all the macronutrients and lots of micronutrients, whereas the CGM will probably just have one macronutrient (Nitrogen) and no micronutrients (you do get the preemergent proteins though).

  • dchall_san_antonio
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    ZS I think you're getting yourself wrapped around the axle. Corn products seem to be very confusing to is ordinary folks but it is not confusing in the animal feeding industry. I used to use upper case to distinguish between ORDINARY corn meal and corn GLUTEN meal. That didn't work to clear things up, so I stopped. Based on reading the forums, people get the other product all the time. All The Time. ALL THE TIME. ALLTHETIME. I don't know why that is unless they don't know what they want or are getting sales people pushing one for the other.

    CGM has been an animal feed for decades. It is synonymous with livestock feeding. Look at the graphic on the linked PDF to see where the various byproducts come from. I've never heard of cost being an issue with feeding CGM to livestock. When they buy for a feed lot they buy it by the truckload. They might get 5-10 cubic yards of it for $100. I might know someone to ask about that pricing.

    CGF is a term for another byproduct. The way products are labeled in the plain brown bags, I'd be surprised if anyone made the mistake of buy CGF instead of CGM. They might make the mental mistake of confusing the two but the bags will be properly labeled. CGF has the bran and is soaked in the original wash water for the corn. Basically it is a less purified product with other products reincorporated into it. CGF probably makes an okay fertilizer. Apparently it does not work as a preemergent.

    CGF is only rarely found in real life. I heard the warnings before I knew of the difference. The similarity of names is causing confusion in the organic user community but not in the organic research community.

    Distillers grains will never be confused with anything because of the naming of the product. It is always called distiller's grains. Distillers grains make a decent organic fertilizer but the experience with it as a fertilizer is not that vast. It could be excellent if it retains the corn factor plus an added yeast factor. Don't know because I've never seen it.

    I guess I'm suggesting you do not try to guess who has made mistakes in calling this or that product what it is. Assume everyone knows what they are talking about...at least on this topic. You have cleverly limited this subject to two aspects of corn without following the rest of the distractions leading astray. The consensus in the organic gardening community forums is that CGM makes an excellent fertilizer. In my opinion it is the best of all the grain based organics. Furthermore the consensus of the lawn forums is that CGM (the real stuff) makes a mediocre preemergent weed control product when you use it according to the label and get lucky with the timing. In fact it is so mediocre as to be considered worthless on that count. The outlier forum on the preemergent issue is the Dirt Doctor forums. Howard Garrett is on the radio every week proclaiming the virtue of CGM as a preemergent. He may have reasons for saying that week after week, but the repeated conclusion in the forums is that it does not control weeds like you think it will. Yes is suppresses some weed seeds but it is not the golden goose. It does not prevent weeds.

  • texas_weed
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Dave FWIW Howard Garrett no longer recommends CGM because ISU quit paying him to plug it, plus he did not believe it works.

    Here is quoted from his Website Dirt Doctor.

    Substitute for Corn Gluten Meal June 2011 Update

    Question: I know from one of your recent articles you are no longer a fan of corn gluten meal. What do you recommend to use as a substitute??? I agree with you that it is expensive and inconsistent. Any help that you can give us is sincerely appreciated.

    Answer: Good question. I'll tell you what I use. In the Spring I apply zeolite at 40 lbs per 1000 sq ft. followed immediately with dry molasses at 20 lbs per 1000 sq ft. The zeolite holds and buffers nutrients that might be out of balance. Dry molasses provides nutrients and super stimulates beneficial microbes. Then I spray once a month with Garrett Juice Plus and Alpha Bio Thrive. If minor insect or disease pests pop up, I spray Bio Wash, do some hand weeding and vinegar spot spraying and occasionally treat problem weeds with Garden Weasel Crabgrass control.

    Source: http://www.dirtdoctor.com/Corn-Gluten-Meal-Updated-Information-2011_vq17.htm

  • ZoysiaSod
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    David, I won't address your accusation in the last post. I try to keep things positive.

    I'm saddened to hear you didn't have a good experience with Corn Gluten Meal. You also mentioned needing to "get lucky with the timing." Getting lucky with the timing is true of all preemergent weed killers, whether you use organic or synthetic chemicals.

    Here is a positive experience from Mr. Wayne Bengston of Cordelia, California (that's his real name as he provided it in his review on Amazon.com).

    Mr. Bengston writes of the 25-pound bag of Espoma preemergent weed killer:

    "This product is composed of 100% corn meal gluten. Corn meal gluten is a non-selective pre-emergent herbicide which also has naturally occuring nitrogen as well, so it makes it a great product to put on your lawn in the fall, BEFORE the weeds start growing.

    Being a non-selective pre-emergent herbicide means that it keeps ALL seeds from germinating. This means that it needs to be applied to lawns that are already esablished, and care needs to be taken to not apply it where seeds have been planted which you want to grow.

    As a fertilizer, corn meal gluten is rated at N-P-K ratio of 9-1-0, or 10% nitrogen by weight [or 9-0-0 or 10-0-0].

    It should be applied at a rate of 20-40 lbs per 1,000 ft-sq. Rates above 80 lbs per ft-square will interfere with the growth of healty plants and grass, so don't go above 40. I used 20 and had good results.

    Corn meal gluten is not 100% effective either. On first application, it is around 60% effective, but that goes up to a maximum of about 80% after multiple applications, about 4-6 weeks apart.

    Corn meal gluten needs to be watered lightly after use and allowed to dry after, so don't apply it if rain is forecast before the lawn can dry.

    It must also be said that if you already see weeds growing in your lawn, it is too late for this product, at least as a weed killer. It will still prevent more weeds from germinating, and it will fertilize the soil, as well as helping to make future applications more effective.

    So, you will still see some weeds with this product, but because you are not damaging the soil, and are making your lawn healthier, there will be fewer weeds just due to the thicker grass.

    Another thing to take note of is that this often can be found at feed stores and is finding its way into the nuseries and other places that carry lawn care products. It generally goes for half the price at sources other than Amazon... That said, if I can't find a local source, I will be purchasing it from Amazon again."
    [End of review. Emphasis added.]

    Amazon link for a bag of certified Espoma CGM

    Amazon link for a bag of certified Concern CGM (interestingly, they also add the P and K macronutrients to this product--wonder if it has any micronutrients too?)

  • dchall_san_antonio
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Can anyone help me see where I might have made an accusation and one that had a negative note to it?

    ZS you're saddened to hear that I did not have a positive experience? Hang around here long enough and you'll get tired of saying that. That's the point TW and I are trying to make. We've been here for a decade. In real life it is rare to find someone who has had a good experience with CGM as a preemergent. One problem with evaluating the effectiveness of CGM is that most people do not have a control plot that they do not use CGM on. Without a control, you cannot know how well the product is working. All I know is I used it at 20 pounds per 1,000 on a monthly basis for an entire season and I have weeds. Should I have used more? Should I have used it more frequently?

    On the other hand, my experience with it as a fertilizer has been phenomenal.

  • ZoysiaSod
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Dchall_san_antonio wrote:
    > In real life it is rare to find someone who has had a good experience with CGM as a preemergent.

    Well, I don't know. but here's another positive, anecdotal review of CGM:

    http://www.amazon.com/Concern-97185-Weed-Prevention-Plus/product-reviews/B000R1JHXI/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

    But more important to me than the positive and negative anecdotes is the science. So I'll give CGM a try.

    I ordered one 40-pound bag of alfalfa meal ($18--sheesh, why so much for alfalfa?) and one 40-pound bag of Corn Gluten Meal from Bradfield Organics. Both bags sold by Hummert International in Earth City.

  • grassboro
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Can you find a feed store, cooperative or the like in your area. You should be able get this stuff a lot cheaper.

  • ZoysiaSod
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I checked several feed stores:

    Fenton Feed Mill

    Valley Park Elevator

    OK Hatchery Feed & Garden Store

    The best price I could find was at Hummert International in Earth City.

    Farmers on CraigsList are selling 50-pound bales of alfalfa hay for $7. Ahh, if I could only transform that hay into meal. But I guess I'd also be worried about weed seeds in the hay.

    I don't think my neighbor next door ever had foxtail weeds in his front yard until after the lawn mowing company slit-seeded his front yard with cool season grasses AND layed brown straw as a mulch.

    Maybe that brown straw was the culprit, because he got a shipload of weeds and foxtail afterwards.

  • ZoysiaSod
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Thanks grassboro. I checked at the very outskirts of the metro area, and found some good deals.

    Pacific Feed & Supply in Pacific, Missouri (554 East Osage) has a 50-pound bag of alfalfa pellets from Arco for 14.xx.

    It's mostly used for feed, he said, so I hope he didn't actually mean to say they are the cubes instead of the pellets. Whatever it is, it's not OMRI-listed as organic like the Bradfield Organics Luscious Lawn & Garden alfalfa meal or pellets.

    So you got your cubes, your meal, and your pellets. Now
    we're getting somewhere.

    Dickey Bub Farm & Home (I love that name) in Eureka has just the alfalfa cubes--50-pound bag for 12.99. I think the cubes might be too big to break down as quickly as the pellets? Not sure how well they'd work in a spreader (100 Hilltop Village Center Drive).

    Diehl Feed on Tesson Ferry has 50-pound bags of alfalfa
    pellets for $17.99. He didn't see a brandname on the bag.

    Eureka Feed Station in Eureka (4 S. Central Ave.) has a 50-pound bag of alfalfa pellets for 13.50. Doesn't have Corn Gluten Meal, by the way. This is the winner, I think.

  • ZoysiaSod
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Here's another good place to check for good pricing on alfalfa feed:

    No matter where you are in the country, entering your zip code in the "Find A Dealer" field at PurinaMills.com will show lots of feed stores in your area.

  • ZoysiaSod
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    New Low Price Breakthrough

    Handy Feed & Grain (419 S Jefferson Street) in Millstadt, IL (across the river) sells the 50-pounder of alfalfa pellets for 12.75 (same price for meal).

    Waterloo Feed & Pet Supply (401 WEST THIRD STREET in Waterloo, IL) has alfalfa for $xx.xx per 50-pound bag.

    West County Feed & Supply (17050 MANCHESTER) has both the Dehy Mills alfalfa pellets and the alfalfa meal (powdery stuff) for $14.30 for 50-pound bags. They also have the alfalfa cubes to feed the animals.

    Dehy Mills used to be called Mary Mills or Merry Mills--one or the other.

    Sidenote: I was at Walmart today. Saw them putting out the lawn and garden stuff in the big indoor room that stocks seasonal items, like holiday stuff in December. I think today is their first day unpacking the lawn & garden items because very little was on the shelves, but lotsa workers unpacking boxes.

    Did see huge 50-pound sacks of K-31 tall fescue. Was it being sold by Scotts? No. Was it being sold by Pendleton? No. It was being sold by the Midwestern States Fescue Association (their web site as printed on the sacks: www.ky31fescue.com.

    Only $40.95 for 50 pounds of K31. Their turf type tall fescue has endophytes.

  • tiemco
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    A word of warning to all you who might buy K-31 for your lawn...K-31 is pasture grass, it was the first tall fescue available, and is very course, wide bladed, and light green in color. It is tough stuff, disease tolerant, and drought tolerant, but if you want a nice yard it is the last thing you would want to use.

  • ZoysiaSod
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Tiemco, you make a good point. Here's a passage from the Organic Lawn Care Manual:

    "Turf-type tall fescue, Festuca arundinacea. Simply known as tall fescue in many classifications, the phrase "turf type" has been added in recent years to differentiate the new cultivars from pasture grass. Tall fescues have been used on lawns since 'Kentucky-31' was plucked from a Kentucky farm in 1931. People, especially in the North, weren't all that happy with K-31's weak performance and coarse blades and might have written off tall fescues as an option."

    "With the arrival of 'Rebel', 'Olympic', 'Houndog', and other cultivars in the 1970s, turf-type tall fescues began their migration toward popularity. Finer textured and denser than their predecessors, turf-type tall fescues offer great year-round color. They may tend to thin out during really hot, dry summers and will usually benefit from a late-summer overseeding. They may also winter-kill slightly in some of the coldest climates, but will usually bounce back when the weather warms."

    "Tall fescues wear slightly better and are more tolerant of a wider range of soil conditions than other fescues. 'Endeavor' gets high marks for tolerating heat and humidity, and for its dark green color"
    [End of quote]

    I think of all the fescues, tall fescue is the best at handling the heat of the upper South, but I don't think even it does well in the hotter South.

  • tiemco
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    All I gotta say is thank god for the "Organic Lawn Care Manual".

  • ZoysiaSod
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    The funny thing is the web site printed on the sack of K-31 seed has pictures of K-31 being used as a residential lawn:

    www.ky31fescue.com.

    The pictures are part of their animated .gif or .png on the homepage there.

  • dchall_san_antonio
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    All I gotta say is thank god for the "Organic Lawn Care Manual".

    Not to be confused with the Organic Lawn Care FAQ...because I disagree with some of what Tukey says in his website, blog, videos, and the manual. I think his blanket statements do not apply to gardeners from the south and even from the west. If he had written the Maine Organic Lawn Care Manual, I'd be more relaxed about it.

  • tiemco
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Sometimes I forget my sarcasm doesn't come across very well on the internet. I mean, I appreciate your enthusiasm Zoysia Sod, and I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but I know my point about K-31 was a good one. Quoting the Organic Lawn Care Manual's brief history of Tall Fescue was pointless as even the newer cultivars mentioned are out of date. There is a reason Scotts and Pennington doesn't sell K-31, it has its place in this world, but as a quality turfgrass isn't one of them.

  • ZoysiaSod
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Pennington does sell K-31 tall fescue. Search their web site for "tall fescue."

    Quote from PenningtonSeed.com: "The Pennington Sunburst line offers a selection of premium, economically-priced grass seed products, including common varieties like Kentucky 31 Tall Fescue, Sahara Bermuda, Annual Ryegrass as well as highly seasonal varieties like Pensacola and Argentine Bahia grasses."

    Here's a direct link to Pennington's "Premium Quality 99.9% Weed Free Kentucky 31 Tall Fescue and it's Penkoted.

  • tiemco
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I meant Pendleton, but that wasn't really my point. I meant as a high quality turfgrass, or in a blend of other quality turfgrasses, you won't find K-31. K-31 is dead last in the NTEP trials in terms of turf quality, and I don't even consider it for use in a yard unless you just want green coverage, and don't care about color or texture. In any blend or mix it will stick out like a sore thumb. I wasn't quite sure what you meant by your statement regarding who was selling it "Did see huge 50-pound sacks of K-31 tall fescue. Was it being sold by Scotts? No. Was it being sold by Pendleton? No. It was being sold by the Midwestern States Fescue Association (their web site as printed on the sacks: www.ky31fescue.com. " I was also a bit unsure why you are just listing products for sale and prices in your area, I mean 4 straight unsolicited posts, but it's a free country, so have fun posting all you want.

  • ZoysiaSod
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Tiemco wrote:
    "I don't even consider it for use in a yard unless you just want green coverage, and don't care about color or texture.

    Most of the yards in my neighborhood are about 4,100 square feet, but there are some yards that are half an acre. Half an acre is a lot of turf to cover.

    I would guess some folks might want to seed inexpensive K-31 on much of that half acre, but leave 5,000 to 10,000 square feet close to the house for the higher quality fescues, whether tall or fine.

    Of course, you and I both mean "Pennington" when we said "Pendleton."

    Pennington also sells uncoated K-31. Would I plant K-31 in my small 4,100 square-foot yard? No. But I was happy to see a big box carry grass seed that wasn't either from Scotts or Pennington. The more competition, the better for the consumer.

    Walmart is selling all those bags of K-31 to somebody. And every year I see K-31 in other big box stores too. So I guess those bags are going to buyers in more rural areas with large pastures, and maybe to suburban buyers with half an acre or even a full acre to care for.

  • Greg
    5 years ago

    So this post is five years old. Hopefully someone has had used CGM a few years now. I live in Charlotte NC with bermuda. Need to apply preemergent asap. Is CGM effective?

  • j4c11
    5 years ago

    Is CGM effective?

    No. I think some study found 60% suppression with CGM, but that's nowhere near effective enough for use in a lawn.

  • dchall_san_antonio
    5 years ago

    If it gets 60% that has to be under certain circumstances. A few years ago I tried to overdose my lawn with organic fertilizer. I used CGM at a rate of 20 pounds per 1,000 square feet every month from April through October. This is well beyond what the Iowa State tests recommend for 80% weed suppression. I never saw any weed suppression. You might want to open a new topic to address preemergents specifically for your situation. Be sure to mention bermuda and please tell us where you live again. Good post, but it won't get the attention you need hidden in the CGM post.

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