You don't want to use softened water or hard water on plants. Either side of the spectrum can be hard on plants long-term. But I think between the two, softened water is worse.

Planto

I recently experienced a drooping pothos, and the problem turned out to be root rot. I am a newbie and I don't know about softened water but I am pretty sure that drooping leaves when soil is moist is often root rot. Although I have heard that softened water is not good for plants. Others will be along to give you advice but you might want to try and check your roots out.

Rain > Distilled/RO > hard tap w/ vinegar/acid treatment > untreated hard tap > softened water

Being the repotting queen, self-declared, I'd immediately repot with fresh soil as the plants are already affected.

But definitely, in any case, use the non-softened (hose?) hard water. What soil are you using? Depending on the soil, it may be harder to truly flush, which will lengthen the misery (yours and the plants'). You're basically dehydrating your plants...though plants will also droop when over-watered, too, as mentioned.

Hence, better to start over and see if they recuperate. But like I said, I repot everything. Lol

Cation exchange water softeners remove the calcium and magnesium ions from hard water by exchanging them with sodium (or potassium) ions. Also in the bargain, you get the chloride half of the sodium chloride and potassium chloride. All of these ions are used by the plant and are considered essential, but sodium and chlorine are used in VERY small volumes, so their levels in your softened water are assuredly above toxic levels.

Whether or not you should repot is another discussion entirely. You probably need to repot into a soil that allows you to water correctly - so you're FLUSHING the excess ions from the soil whenever you water, but now isn't a good time to repot. Flush the soil thoroughly and get started on a good nutritional supplementation program and stick to it. We can talk about that if you like. I can also help you significantly reduce the impact of a soil that doesn't allow you to flush the soil w/o it remaining wet so long it rots roots or significantly diminishes the roots' ability to function efficiently.

If you have a couple hundred bucks you can part with, you might consider a small reverse osmosis water system to water with. You can also use it to make your drinking or cooking water if you like. I have one and use it for plants and making drinking water. It makes a huge difference in how the treated water tastes (compared to from the tap), and comes out the delivery end at ) ppm dissolved solids, or the equivalent of distilled or deionized water.

A long post to tell you that getting the basics right and not having to fight your soil for control of your plants' vitality will make a tremendous difference in how much you can take from the growing experience in return for your efforts.

Al

This post was edited by tapla on Thu, Oct 23, 14 at 17:11

I realize this is a very old post at this point, but I've been enjoying these forum (since I came upon them) for many weeks. I am thoroughly enjoying learning from everyone, especially the soil comments from Al ( tapla)...very, very informative and interesting! I'm sure the specific answer to my question is already out there somewhere, I just can't find it.

So, here is it...I am in search of an excellent potting soil for my indoor plants. From what I gather, one does not seem to really exist out there? I am happy to attempt to assemble my own but I'm just not finding a specific "recipe"...particularly from Al (tapla).

Any help is MUCH appreciated and thank you again for sharing your expertise and for taking the time to compose such informative and helpful responses to these Forums.

You'll find recipes toward the end of this post:
Click me

Honestly though, gaining an understanding of the concept that gave rise to the recipes is far more valuable than a recipe ever could be. When I wrote the piece, the recipes were meant primarily as a way to easily implement the the basic concept. I'm not trying to dissuade you from following the recipes, I still use the basic recipes you'll find almost 15 years of tinkering with soils after I initially posted the thread in '04 or '05.

I appreciate the kind words, Cheri.

Al

Thank you so much for your prompt response! I am definitely reading all I can in the forums to understand the concepts you have kindly laid out for the rest of us. Again, your sharing of this invaluable information is so appreciated!

I clicked the link you provided above. I had actually read that post and many of the comments previously (more than once!)...and again just now. Maybe it's my computer (?) but, your post cuts off after around paragraph #28. It indicates the post is "Continued below" but there is no more text, only 816 comments. I'm sorry, am I missing something or is there another post where I might find it? (And maybe the gritty mix that I keep reading about also, while we're at it?)

Again, thank you!!!!

If you click on the link at the end of the first half of the OP, the first thing that pops up (for me) is the second half. Perhaps you're seeing the second half of the thread as a comment from me, but if you scroll to the end, you'll see the recipes. Let me know if that doesn't work.

Al

Thank you Al. I see where it says "Continued below" which seems like it should be a link...but for me, at least, it is not, so nothing happens when I click it. It seems to be the first half of the OP...

A given volume of large soil particles
has less overall surface area when compared to the same volume of small
particles and therefore less overall adhesive attraction to water. So,
in soils with large particles, GFP more readily overcomes capillary
attraction. They simply drain better and hold more air. We all know
this, but the reason, often unclear, is that the height of the PWT is
lower in coarse soils than in fine soils. The key to good drainage is
size and uniformity of soil particles. Mixing large particles with small
is often very ineffective because the smaller particles fit between the
large, increasing surface area which increases the capillary attraction
and thus the water holding potential. An illustrative question: How
much perlite do we need to add to pudding to make it drain well?

I already stated I hold as true that the grower's soil choice when
establishing a planting for the long term is the most important decision
he/she will make. There is no question that the roots are the heart of
the plant, and plant vitality is inextricably linked in a hard lock-up
with root vitality. In order to get the best from your plants, you
absolutely must have happy roots.

If you start with a water-retentive medium, you cannot effectively
amend it to improve aeration or drainage characteristics by adding
larger particulates. Sand, perlite, Turface, calcined DE ...... none of
them will work effectively. To visualize why sand and perlite can't
change drainage/aeration, think of how well a pot full of BBs would
drain (perlite); then think of how poorly a pot full of pudding would
drain (bagged soil). Even mixing the pudding and perlite/BBs together
1:1 in a third pot yields a mix that retains the drainage
characteristics and PWT height of the pudding. It's only after the
perlite become the largest fraction of the mix (60-75%) that drainage
& PWT height begins to improve. At that point, you're growing in
perlite amended with a little potting soil.

You cannot add coarse material to fine material and improve drainage
or the ht of the PWT. Use the same example as above & replace the
pudding with play sand or peat moss or a peat-based potting soil - same
results. The benefit in adding perlite to heavy soils doesn't come from
the fact that they drain better. The fine peat or pudding particles
simply 'fill in' around the perlite, so drainage & the ht of the PWT
remains the same. All perlite does in heavy soils is occupy space that
would otherwise be full of water. Perlite simply reduces the amount of
water a soil is capable of holding because it is not internally porous.
IOW - all it does is take up space. That can be a considerable benefit,
but it makes more sense to approach the problem from an

angle that also allows us to increase the aeration AND durability
of the soil. That is where Pine bark comes in, and I will get to that soon.

If you want to profit from a soil that offers superior drainage
and aeration, you need to start with an ingredient as the basis for your soils
that already HAVE those properties, by ensuring that the soil is primarily
comprised of particles much larger than those in
peat/compost/coir/sand/topsoil, which is why the recipes I suggest as starting
points all direct readers to START with the foremost fraction of the soil being
large particles, to ensure excellent aeration. From there, if you choose, you
can add an appropriate volume of finer particles to increase water retention.
You do not have that option with a soil that is already extremely
water-retentive right out of the bag.

I fully understand that many are happy with the results they get
when using commercially prepared soils, and I'm not trying to get anyone to
change anything. My intent is to make sure that those who are having trouble
with issues related to soil, understand why the issues occur, that there are
options, and what they are.

We have seen that adding a coarse drainage layer at the container
bottom does not improve drainage. It does though, reduce the volume of soil
required to fill a container, making the container lighter. When we employ a
drainage layer in an attempt to improve drainage, what we are actually doing is
moving the level of the PWT higher in the pot. This simply reduces the volume
of soil available for roots to colonize. Containers with uniform soil particle
size from top of container to bottom will yield better and more uniform
drainage and have a lower PWT than containers using the same soil with added
drainage layers.

The coarser the drainage layer, the more detrimental to drainage
it is because water is more (for lack of a better scientific word) reluctant to
make the downward transition because the capillary pull of the soil above the
drainage layer is stronger than the GFP. The reason for this is there is far
more surface area on soil particles for water to be attracted to in the soil
above the drainage layer than there is in the drainage layer, so the water
perches. I know this goes against what most have thought to be true, but the
principle is scientifically sound, and experiments have shown it as so. Many
nurserymen employ the pot-in-pot or the pot-in-trench method of growing to
capitalize on the science.

If you discover you need to increase drainage, you can simply
insert an absorbent wick into a drainage hole & allow it to extend from the
saturated soil in the container to a few inches below the bottom of the pot, or
allow it to contact soil below the container where the earth acts as a giant
wick and will absorb all or most of the perched water in the container, in most
cases. Eliminating the PWT has much the same effect as providing your plants
much more soil to grow in, as well as allowing more, much needed air in the
root zone.

In simple terms: Plants that expire because of drainage problems either
die of thirst because the roots have rotted and can no longer take up water, or
they suffer/die because there is insufficient air at the root zone to insure
normal root function, so water/nutrient uptake and root metabolism become
seriously impaired.

To confirm the existence of the PWT and how effective a wick is at
removing it, try this experiment: Fill a soft drink cup nearly full of garden
soil. Add enough water to fill to the top, being sure all soil is saturated.
Punch a drain hole in the bottom of the cup and allow the water to drain. When
drainage has stopped, insert a wick into the drain hole . Take note of how much
additional water drains. Even touching the soil with a toothpick through the
drain hole will cause substantial additional water to drain. The water that
drains is water that occupied the PWT. A greatly simplified explanation of what
occurs is: The wick or toothpick "fools" the water into thinking the
pot is deeper than it is, so water begins to move downward seeking the "new"
bottom of the pot, pulling the rest of the water in the PWT along with it. If
there is interest, there are other simple and interesting experiments you can
perform to confirm the existence of a PWT in container soils. I can expand
later in the thread.

I always remain cognizant of these physical principles whenever I
build a soil. I have not used a commercially prepared soil in many years,
preferring to build a soil or amend one of my 2 basic mixes to suit individual
plantings. I keep many ingredients at the ready for building soils, but the
basic building process usually starts with conifer bark and perlite. Sphagnum
peat plays a secondary role in my container soils because it breaks down too
quickly to suit me, and when it does, it impedes drainage and reduces aeration.
Size matters. Partially composted conifer bark fines (pine is easiest to find
and least expensive) works best in the following recipes, followed by
uncomposted bark in the <3/8" range.

Bark fines of pine, fir or hemlock, are excellent as the primary
component of your soils. The lignin contained in bark keeps it rigid and the
rigidity provides air-holding pockets in the root zone far longer than peat or
compost mixes that too quickly break down to a soup-like consistency. Conifer
bark also contains suberin, a lipid sometimes referred to as nature's
preservative. Suberin, more scarce as a presence in sapwood products and
hardwood bark, dramatically slows the decomposition of conifer bark-based
soils. It contains highly varied hydrocarbon chains and the microorganisms that
turn peat to soup have great difficulty cleaving these chains - it retains its
structure.

Note that there is no sand or compost in the soils I use. Sand, as
most of you think of it, can improve drainage in some cases, but it reduces
aeration by filling valuable macro-pores in soils. Unless sand particle size is
fairly uniform and/or larger than about BB size, I leave it out of soils.
Compost is too fine and unstable for me to consider using in soils in any
significant volume as well. The small amount of micro-nutrients it supplies can
easily be delivered by one or more of a number of chemical or organic sources
that do not detract from drainage/aeration.

The basic soils I use ....

The 5:1:1 mix:

See dry 5:1:1 mix in the center below. The bark products at 3, 6, and
9 o'clock are ideal for the 5:1:1 mix. The bark at top below is
prescreened fir bark in 1/8 - 1/4", and what I use for the gritty mix.

5 parts pine bark fines, dust - 3/8 (size is important

1 part sphagnum peat (not reed or sedge peat please)

1-2 parts perlite (coarse, if you can get it)

garden lime (or gypsum in some cases)

controlled release fertilizer (if preferred)

Big batch:

2-3 cu ft pine bark fines

5 gallons peat

5 gallons perlite

2 cups dolomitic (garden) lime (or gypsum in some cases)

2 cups CRF (if preferred)

Small batch:

3 gallons pine bark

1/2 gallon peat

1/2 gallon perlite

4 tbsp lime (or gypsum in some cases)

1/4 cup CRF (if preferred)

Continued below

I have seen advice that some highly
organic (practically speaking - almost all container soils are highly
organic) container soils are productive for up to 5 years or more. I
disagree and will explain why if there is interest. Even if you were to
substitute fir bark for pine bark in this recipe (and this recipe will
long outlast any peat based soil) you should only expect a maximum of
two to three years life before a repot is in order. Usually perennials,
including trees (they're perennials too) should be repotted more
frequently to insure they can grow at as close to their genetic
potential within the limits of other cultural factors as possible. If a
soil is desired that will retain structure for long periods, we need to
look more to inorganic components. Some examples are crushed granite,
fine stone, VERY coarse sand (see above - usually no smaller than BB
size in containers, please), Haydite, lava rock (pumice), Turface,
calcined DE, and others.

For long term (especially woody) plantings and houseplants, I use a
superb soil that is extremely durable and structurally sound. The basic
mix is equal parts of screened pine bark, Turface, and crushed granite.

The gritty mix:

1 part uncomposted screened pine or fir bark (1/8-1/4")

1 part screened Turface

1 part crushed Gran-I-Grit (grower size) or #2 cherrystone

1 Tbsp gypsum per gallon of soil (eliminate if your fertilizer has Ca)

CRF (if desired)

I use 1/8 -1/4 tsp Epsom salts (MgSO4) per gallon of fertilizer
solution when I fertilize if the fertilizer does not contain Mg (check
your fertilizer - if it is soluble, it is probable it does not contain
Ca or Mg. If I am using my currently favored fertilizer (I use it on
everything), Dyna-Gro's Foliage-Pro in the 9-3-6 formulation, and I
don't use gypsum or Epsom salts in the fertilizer solution.

The screens I use when needed:

If there is interest, you'll find some of the more recent continuations of the thread at the links below:

Post XXI

Post XX

Post XIX

Post XVIII

Post XVII

Post XVI

Post XV

If you feel you were benefited by having read this offering, you
might also find this thread about Fertilizing Containerized Plants helpful.

If you do find yourself using soils you feel are too
water-retentive, you'll find some Help Dealing with Water Retentive Soils by following this embedded link.

If you happen to be at all curious about How Plant Growth is Limited, please
follow the link.

Finally, if you are primarily into houseplants, you can find an OVERVIEW of the BASICS, which should
provide help in avoiding the most common pitfalls encountered by houseplant/
container growers.

As always - best luck. Good growing!! Let me know if you think
there is anything you think I might be able to help you with.

Al

''...> hard tap w/ vinegar/acid treatment...''

vinegar/acid treatment?

THANK YOU!!!!!!!! Very much appreciated!

I plan to repot all my houseplants this season and am attempting to "save/rescue" all my mother in law's houseplants that have been in old soil with not enough light for far too long...

Love that acorn planting^^^!

A tip on water: if you only have a few plants and can't afford a home RO system, consider watering with reverse osmosis water sold for maybe forty cents a gallon at supermarkets.

For Al/tapla...you wrote "For long term (especially woody) plantings and houseplants, I use a superb soil that is extremely durable and structurally sound. The basic mix is equal parts of screened pine bark, Turface, and crushed granite."

Just want to clarify, I'm not certain which way to read that...did you mean you use your gritty mix for [ALL] houseplants...or just for "especially woody" houseplants? IOW, if I added the word "for" before houseplants, would that alter the meaning of the sentence? Thank you!!!!!

Whenever a plant has the potential to be in the same soil for 2 or more growth cycles, I use the gritty mix. I no longer have much interest in growing what we would think of as typical houseplants. Almost everything I now grow is either a woody plant that can be manipulated, or a succulent, though I do practice bonsai techniques when the whim strikes, on plants like coleus, snapdragon, or anything else, the looks of which can be enhanced by a variety of techniques commonly used in bonsai. Many bonsai techniques are very easy to learn/apply, and can be seriously effective tools you can use to keep plants healthy and looking good - no matter whether you have an actual interest in bonsai or not. So, as things are now, everything you might think of as a houseplant is in the gritty mix; but, if I was growing gobs of plants like pothos, croton, pilea (the more herbaceous stuff), I'd have a lot of them in 5:1:1. FWIW - oxalis really loves the gritty mix, as do almost all succulents.

How I judge what soil to use: If it grows very fast or has a very enthusiastic root system and needs repotting every year w/o fail (if they are to perform well), I'd choose the 5:1:1 mix. Plants like datura, brugs, hibiscus ...... go in the 5:1:1 because they almost always need an annual repot. I can't see much reason to put plants like that in the gritty mix unless they're to be grown in rather or very shallow pots where perched water would be especially ruinous of potential, even if you CAN squeeze a fair amount of additional potential from plants in more carefully-structured soils.

Al

I soften my water for my plants, but I have pretty hard water and grow in Coco. In Coco you want a lower Ph.

Thank you Al!!!

General Hydroponics makes a ph adjustment kit. It is a pain, but my medium needs it.