If the present weather pattern keeps up I may start growing veggies all year round. It was reported this morning that Richmond, Va just experienced it's warmest Dec on record - temps averaged 7 degrees above normal for the month (when extrapolating predictions thru Sunday). At this rate the term "Winter" may be eliminated and we'll just have 3 longer seasons to deal with.

Hi Violet,
I have planters on my porch that I do lettuce and herbs in every year. I always seed them by mid-march so it is sort of like winter sowing.
Last year I winter sowed cabbage, rhubarb, and more herbs like fennel for the veggie garden. Everything had a very high germination rate, and the cabbage as you may have guessed was one of the first things that sprouted.
I'm going to do it again. I just have to decide what I'm actually going to grow this coming year!
Remy

Had wonderful success winter sowing vegetables. Look forward in a crop from those jugs this year.

ML

Perhaps one of you folks with experience in winter sowing can tell me, since I have no real experience with winter sowing, per se. The closest thing that I have done is to {{gwi:133462}} some of my seedlings in my {{gwi:15060}} but it has the advantages of being heated with the composting material in a pit beneath ground level and the double paned window at an angle to catch the max of the suns rays.

I have a {{gwi:133463}} salvaged from when they tore the house across the street down to build a new one, and some little plastic strawberry cartons that I found in the supermarket dumpster. The little containers {{gwi:133464}} they would be very handy with the holes already in them at top for air circulation and bottom for drainage. They have pretty fair depth for root development, but tomato and pepper plants would soon outgrow the head room, so I figure that I need some way to leave the lids open and still afford some protection for the tender plants if we get a frost or freeze.

I have this spot midway of the south side of the house that gets sun most all the day and is about as sheltered and protected from cold north winds and I can find. I have lots of extra seed and the materials did not cost me anything, so what the heck, might as well give it a try and see what happens.":^)

What are the opinions of how effective this would be without any artificial heat, if I close in the ends of the window and leave it where I can prop the window open when we have warm days ? ? I probably need to leave it so that I could set it aside to water and attend the plants. Whattada ya think?
Thanks in advance.
Bill P.

Bill..I winter sow in {{gwi:133465}} in a {{gwi:133466}} . It works just fine, especially with cool season veggies.

The berry flats may be too shallow when closed. You need at least 3" of soil, or they dry out too quickly, and require more attention. If you leave the lids open, even behind your window, they won't be protected from wind and critters.

Try setting up a frame of hay bales, and cover it with the window. Then you'll have it closed from all sides, and leaving the lids off the berry flats will be no problem.

Hi Violet! Hi Bill, Hi Donn and everyone else.

WSing veggies is a LOT of fun and it works like a charm. Previously I had horrendous luck with direct sowing--birds, bugs, washouts and weeds were the norm for me. I've been able to do starchy summer vegies with good success too, but I don't sow the seeds deeply, just barely under the soil surfaces is fine. You can now get sown all the coles, herbs, alliums, green leafy things and root veggies. You can also so this early solanums, but that's up to you. Cold season veggies are definitely a go.

If anyone is going to try the method we do keep a container count going on the WS forum, you're all welcome to add your numbers at any time up until May. When you add your container numbers you can do so as you go along, but only then add in your latest batch, never a running total.

Hugs,

Trudi

Here is a link that might be useful: Here's the galleries--lots of pictures, especially for containers.

Thanks Donn, that is quite a set up that you have there. How cold will that protect your plants down to, or do you heat it some way?

I was planning on closing in the ends and securing the bottom side down to the ground. If I cut two triangular pieces of plywood to fit the ends, I could then put a bag of shredded leaves (cheaper than hay but may or may not be as good for insulation, dunno.) up against each end for insulation if need be, and that way could probably leave the tops of the little containers open after the plants grew some. I also think that I have some 16 oz styrofoam cups which are pretty deep, left over from potting up some seedlings last spring.

I have my hotbed /coldframe that I can start several hundred seedlings in. It has carried tender seedlings thru several days of sub freezing tempratures on three or four occasions, but I was just thinking about giving this a try to see if I could have any success with it.
Just kinda mulling it over.
Bill P.

I've had success winter sowing cucumbers, tomatoes, lettuce, raddishes,bell peppers and red peppers and most herbs.
Those WS tomatoes where about 2 weeks behind the store bought ones, but in the beginning of Sept. when the neighbors where all pulling out their "dead and dying plants", mine where still full of tomatoes ripening well into mid and late October.

Fran

Bill..in winter, I only use it for winter sowing. Nothing sprouts until the weather warms up. After that, the seedlings all seem to survive whatever mild frosts we get in early spring. I haven't lost one yet. I keep a remote thermometer/hygrometer sensor in there, and it only stays a few degrees warmer at night than in unprotected areas. During the day, it warms up substantially, and carries a good bit of that heat into the night. It also stays much more humid than outside the frame, sometimes as much as twice as humid. That's really important in my windy bayside climate. Shallow rooted seedlings can dessicate quickly in our constant wind.

The key to winter sowing is the fact that it creates very hardy seedlings. They spend all their time outdoors, with a little protection from wind, storm and cold. There's no hardening them before transplant, and no damp-off.

I discovered all the advantages that you describe in your last paragraph above, the first year that I started my seedlings in the hotbed / coldframe.

Something else that I discovered last year is the distinct advantage of being able to transplant early and directly from the hotbed / coldframe into the garden, rather than repotting one or more times. There is an almost unbelievable (at least to me) difference in the plants in the row (with some cages around the plants) to the left of the row of peas, and those plants in the row which has some white styrofoam cups in the ground by the plants in this {{gwi:133467}}.
With good soil, I attribute the difference to getting the little plants into the ground so that they could get those amazing root systems established unfettered. I think that winter sown in place and some early volunteers could enjoy the same advantages. Another example is of these {{gwi:133468}} that sprang from seed planted on the same date. Those on each side were transplanted into the groud as soon as practical, the one in the middle was potted up in a good potting mix.
Just my thoughts based upon my observations.
Bill P.

Bill P. you still have a veggie garden to die for! Beautiful!

I see you use soaker hoses. How long have you been using them? Do you leave them on top of the ground or do you mulch them? Do you leave them out year round?

I've stolen the thread. I'm sorry everyone. Please forgive me but I had to ask him while I was thinking about it!

shellva,

You can always feel free to start a new thread or message a member privately.

There are previous thread you may find interesting:

Here is a link that might be useful: Bills Garden and Soaker Hoses

Wow! Thanks Shellva and Violet. No problemo as far as I am concerned.

I have been useing soak hoses for quite a few years with very satisfactory results. I used to roll them up and store them in a shed over the winter, then had a small problem getting them to relax and forget the coil to lay straight. Now, I just lay them on the row of concrete blocks at the base of the fence along one side of the garden. I have never had any problems with them clogging, just an occasional leak as they get old or from my stabbing a hole in one with the prong on the bottom of a tomato cage. I have never found a satisfactory way to patch them shy of cutting out the leaking section and putting a hose connecter in to join the pieces back together, but that is inexpensive and effective.

When my plants are tall enough, and before I mulch with shredded leaves (preferably), I string the hoses along the row beside the plants then hoe or plow some dirt up around the base the plants as the final hilling up. Most of the hose may get an inch or two of dirt over it, then the mulch is added. That works for me and conserves water as well as keeping the soil temperatures more constant.

All my hoses are at least two to three years old so I am watching for some sales on them at H.D. I did not see any at the end of the season this year, but hoping to in the dead of the winter, like now. I use the 75 foot hoses which I can sometimes find for ll or 12 bucks each. I think that they easily save more than that amount in water bills in just a few months, but they last much longer than that.
That is my thoughts on it.
Bill P.

Bill..I've been getting pretty good prices on soaker hoses at Costco for the past couple of years. They sold 110 footers for $12.99 this year and $9.99 last year.

That said, I'm switching to bulk soaker hose. You can buy 500' coils far cheaper, even after adding the female fittings. For the other end of the hose, I use a small PVC plug. It's tight enough to stay in place, but you can still remove it to flush the hose.

Sounds great Donn, where do you find the bulk soak hose ?

We do not have a Costco anywhere close, do have H.D. and Lowes though, as well as Tractor Supply, Northern and WalMart.

Bill P.

Hi Violet. Thanks for the link. I didn't mean to get us sidetracked.

But to answer your original question....I am in zone 7b/8a. This is my first year at WSing. I've sown flowers that I know are pretty hardy but as for veggies, I am going to wait until end of February to mid-March to sow my tomatoes and peppers. I think it was Donn who said he waits until March for things like tomatoes.

I'm probably going to sow broccoli, spinach and lettuce here within the next week or so and then plant them out in the garden according to my extension agency's recommendations.

Everything else, veggie-wise, will be direct sown durning the proper times according to the Ext. agency.

Oh! and I did sow lettuce and radishes back in Novemeber in a make-shift cold frame. The radishes are just about ready for harvest. The lettuce looks good but it's one of those real soft types which isn't really my cup of tea. It was a left over pack of seeds wihout even a name on it, just lettuce. So I'd mark that experiment up as a success. But we have been unusually warm this year.

Bill..look for a plumbing supplier who services landscapers with drip irrigation supplies. It ends up being fairly expensive if you have to pay to ship it in.

I sow veggies every year, sometime in March, like annuals. Beans, cabbage, pumpkin, melon, squash, gourds, cucumber, kolrabi - all sown in gallon milk jugs. I have not had too much luck with tomatoes (except cherry), eggplant or peppers - I know others have success with tomatoes, so I'm going to try them again this year. I was never able to get melons or pumpkins to grow indoors - they always succumbed to damping off which is not a problem when winter sowing them.

vjhale,

When you winter sow the vine crops in March, about when do they germinate?

It depends on the vine and the weather. But generally the end of April/first of May, depending on how cold it is at night. I can't plant out until the 4th week of May usually, so the vines are getting big by the time I transplant, the milk jug leave lots of room for them to grow until I move them to the garden.

I hadn't had too much success direct sowing seed and damping off kept me from getting a headstart on the plants, so the first year I winter sowed squash and pumpkin I total underestimated how robust the vines would be and overestimated how many plants to put out. It wasn't too long before my teepees and trellis were overgrown and the entire 15x25 foot bed was a 5 foot tall tangle of vines - what a hoot. I have since scaled back how many plants I put in. :-)

I was thinking about cutting the bottom out of the milk jug, while leaving the top on and planting a little earlier than usual this year, and see what happens.

It depends on the vine and the weather. But generally the end of April/first of May, depending on how cold it is at night. I can't plant out until the 4th week of May usually, so the vines are getting big by the time I transplant, the milk jug leave lots of room for them to grow until I move them to the garden.

Thats about the same as my plant out date. Anywhere from May 20 -June 1 depending on the long range forecast. I am intending to WS cold hardy plants (once it gets cold), but was unsure on the warm season crops. Now I think I will try them each way and see which yields the more robust transplant come plant out time. Thanks for the info. I was thinking about cutting the bottom out of the milk jug, while leaving the top on and planting a little earlier than usual this year, and see what happens.

I would think that if the soil is prewarmed a bit with plastic sheeting it should work out. I mean the jug only provides a degree or two of cold protection at best. My only concern would be putting the warm season plants into cold soil and having them stall, but I would have to try it and see what happens.

Yes, you're right about the soil temp. I thought it but didn't write it.

I use plastic sheeting and wall o' waters to get a few of my tomatoes in by the first of May, using the same method on melons might be an interesting trial also.

I learned the "Wintersowing Technique a la Trudi Davidoff" last year. I qualify the phrase and put it in quotation marks because people get it confused with 'wintersowing', which is an old agricultural method of direct sowing seeds in the fall for an early spring crop from field or garden.

I wish I could find Trudi's original essay on Wintersowing. That was the one which stimulated me to learn the technique and I like it better than the current FAQ. But here are a couple of links which go a little further toward explaining it than what has already been posted:

www.greenhands.com/greenhands/2003/minigreenh.html
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1675452

The reason I went to the trouble of learning and applying this technique was that I wanted to grow heirloom tomatoes and I didn't have the space for a light set-up. The Wintersowing technique appealed to me because there is no monetary investment other than buying seed & potting soil, no diseased seedling potential, no hardening off requirement. In other words, it's cheap and fool-proof.

Last year -- my first year of Wintersowing -- I grew 13 varieties of heirloom tomatoes and 7 varieties of peppers. I didn't quite trust the method, so I sowed way too many seedlings and spent a lot of time and effort in finding homes for them. I had close to 100% germination.
I also had a terrific harvest of tomatoes and peppers! Many local gardeners reported having a poor year with tomatoes but that was not my experience.

I also had very good success with many garden greens, including corn mache which can be difficult to germinate when direct seeded in the garden bed.

Even though the technique is very simple, the concept is difficult to wrap your brain around. It's so counter-intuitive, so contrary to all we 'know' about propagating semi-tropical plants like tomatoes and peppers. The Wintersowing Forum old hands are terrific with newbies. They patiently answer the same questions year after year, and give the newbie a lot of support and encouragement to persevere.

Its 80 here today I've been delaying waiting to plant until march but I'm about to change that and just start my new vegetables this weekend. I mean why not its still t-shirt and shorts weather.

Thank you Veggieluv, we luv you too!

Yes, the 'Winter Sowing Method' is not winter sowing a field in October with a green manure to turn under in April, or a winter rye, etc, to be cut for crop or fodder the next Spring.

When you google Winter Sowing, the first hundred hits are dominated by the method, the ancient agricultural practice is going further and further behind the main pages. A few years back I went down to Beltsville seeking guidance and they very kindly and patiently gave it to me, as well taught me how to manage and grow my website. And it is that scholarly guidance which is why the method dominates over the ancient farming practice when you search the internet for 'Winter Sowing'.

If you recheck the FAQs you'll see that the first one there is "How to Winter Sow", I think that is what you are referring to as what you want to read again. The FAQs were needed because there was a LOT of explaining because as you say, it is counter-intuitve, and it is also counter-cultural; many people believe that you need those heat mats and light set-ups to begin any sort of seed, and among the more experienced there were arguements that Deno's set of numbers had to be followed exactly. So, God bless Beltsville as they were the first authority who didn't start their convo with "No. You're crazy."

I did good, so did they.

We have a work-in-progress Database, there are veggies and herbs listed. I repeat it is a work in progress and it was created by the forum, my hands were not involved in its creation, but do to the need to house it in a reliable url, it is now at WinterSown.Org. Last week I finished the "cleaning and dusting", reframed it into a nicer grid, and uploaded the DB. The DB is in plain-text, you don't need Excel or Word or any database reading program, you can just click on the links and there it is. Keep in mind that not seeing a plant there doesn't mean that it can't be WS, and seeing a "NO" there also doesn't mean that it can't be WS--this is because there hasn't yet been enough years of entry to reliably prove and disprove particular plants. The DB is a suggestion and guide, but it is not the know-all, end-all, do-all, be-all for what seeds you can sow with the method.

I am very glad that VeggieLuv mentioned tomatoes and peppers, initially most people think that you can't WS them. Consider the plants that reseed in your garden--we've all heard the legendary tales about toms germinating in cracks in sidewalks and growing to be the healthiest plants anyone has ever seen. Toms do reseed in a temperate climate because they're from a temperate climate, peppers and eggplants and all solanums can reseed. It does make sense that it you live in zone five or colder, that you choose a short season tom and not a 110 dtm type because you may be bringing in green fruits to ripen on the counter. Short season gardens need short season varieties.

Give it a try, if you're unsure of the method then hold back some seeds to sow by whatever means you want, then at the end of the season compare the vigor, health, flowers or crops of what you sow.

Your eyes are your teachers.

Here is a link that might be useful: Winter Sowing Database

Trudi,

There are actually tomato varieties that are hardy to zone 3. Yes, that's "three". It's just that most people are unaware of this.

It would be possible over a period of years to acclimate a strain over time that would sprout earlier and earlier each year. You should take this into consideration at the WS forum. Have them keep track of when specific varieties of seeds harvested from the WS method over a period of several years sprout. Then they'll really be hardy to that area.

Yes, I know that there are several toms that will do quite well reseeding in zone 3.

T

So how's it going guys?

Successes? Have pics?

Hummmm..... anyone?