That's a good question Fruitnut- for ourselves we don't have a lot of space, but I've lusted over some arrangement that would let us have that kind of control. I suppose that the time will come when lots more of us do just what you suggest.

I hope you keep the data coming.

Best,

M

Fruitnut can you make a video or post some pics of your setup? I built a pvc hightunnel for tomatoes and the results are amazing. I am really interested in doing fruit this way.

How tall of a green house do you need and how many trees can you get in a 1000 ft gh?

Here is a link that might be useful: my hightunnel vids

When people think of greenhouse grown anything they think of Florida hot house tomatoes, and thats the end of it. People think if it comes out of a gh then it will taste fake, its hard to convince people that my hightunnel tomatoes will be nothing like the insipid tomatoes you get in the store.

That is why its hard to convert people.

joe-il:

I'll try to post pictures tomorrow. The best setup will depend on climate, crop, and objectives, ie year long production vs season extension.

I think a high tunnel might need to be taller than a greenhouse depending on how well the greenhouse is cooled. My greenhouse is 16 ft tall but I think 12 ft would work with a good evaporative cooling system.

We are wary of high tunnels here because of high winds. We're not sure how tall a high tunnel would need to be. Ones in Michigan and WA state for sweet cherries are only about 12 ft tall if that.

I'm planting 6ft by 8ft to 2ft by 8ft for stonefruit. I probably harvest 1200-1700 lbs of fruit from 1700 sq ft of greenhouse.

Why would I pay even $2000 for a greenhouse when I pay less than $20 a year to spray? That would take me 100 years to pay for if it would cut out the need to spray totally, which it wouldn't.
I only lost stuff to weather the one year much of the nation got a hard late freeze on May 19th (I think that's the day).
I can deal with the problems a lot cheaper than a tree sized greenhouse.

There are also zoning issues so it would cut down on what I could grow in the greenhouse.

So myk1 what are you harvesting right now? Can you grow nectarines or pluot?

Personally Fruitnut, I think protected culture is the wave of the future for commercial production in the Midwest and East.

Already there is a lot of excitement of high tunnels among commercial growers. Canadians have dominated parts of the tomato market with protected culture.

A lot of the Chinese fruit production is under hoop houses (See link below.)

Protected culture has a few clear advantages:

1. It guarantees a crop every year regardless of the weather.

2. Hoop houses give a more consistent high quality crop (It really helps to keep the rain off it.)

3. It requires less pesticides. Pests don't seem to go into a high tunnel the way they will open plantings. Public perception is increasingly negative about pesticides and will continue to move in that direction. This will increase the move to protected culture.

However, these factors will only effect Midwest and Eastern production. There is not as much advantage for the West coast producers, which is where most of the fruit is grown. I expect they will continue with open plantings.

For me, I don't plan on going to protected culture. I don't think my neighbors would tolerate large hoop houses on my one acre lot. I suspect a lot of backyard growers are in the same circumstance.

Here is a link that might be useful: Chinese fruit production

I'm very limited to space, being in the city on a .20 acre lot... I have wanted to buy a 10x20 hoophouse for some time. I already have a 6x10 greenhouse (poly).

One issue.

In winter I wouldn't heat. Too expensive. If i wanted to put fruits of some type in there, what would happen since outdoor/indoor temps during the night are almost equal, while sunny winter days the temp can soar to 80F? That would be tough on trees. Only way i see it is if i removed the covering during winter, yet a peach/nectarine would still probably get zapped during a cold winter (say -25F or colder)...

I'd almost have to either heat very little (not worth it) or grow in pots and move in and out for winter, which still seems like too much work. I'd probably be smarter growing early tomatoes/peppers/eggplant and selling them at a farmer's market :)

Fruitnut, I agree with olpea that it is off limits for many people here due to neighbors that would not like it a whole lot. The build/maintenance angle also is pretty daunting when starting out. I have a small greenhouse and I put a lot of time into that to get it set up: circulating fans, automatic irrigation, etc. There is also a lot of new stuff to figure out that is unique to greenhouse culture and there is not much information out there on growing fruits in a greenhouse. Even the pros don't have it really figured out yet in the midwest and east, every year I read about a new issue with the covered Michigan cherry research. The latest problem I heard is the covers are not helping against cracking because the rainwater is still coming in through the soil so the cherries still crack. In the berries high tunnel study in Iowa the berries got botrytis from the lack of air circulation in the humid weather; when the air is so thick it feels like its dripping, even keeping out the rain doesn't stop all diseases. Your climate may be more suited since it is drier, both in amount of rain and in humidity.

Overall I don't really know how good the high tunnels or greenhouses will prove to be in humid rainy climates like mine, but if I had the time and the land I'd say it was worth a go. In your climate it sounds like its a huge win. Please post some pictures or a video, I'd love to see your setup.

Scott

olpea:

Thanks for the insight and info on China. I'll have to devote time tomorrow to study that. Looks like a lot is happening in China.

Frank:

A greenhouse doesn't have to be heated much in winter to grow most fruit, like peaches which I know you really like. You'd probably like nectarines even more if you could grow your own.

In your cold winter climate you could just heat enough to take the edge off really cold weather. Maintain zero on those -20F nights. A heavy shade cloth and small exhaust fan would keep winter days below 45F. In spring, winter, and fall just heat to maintain the plants above critical freeze temperature of buds.

I've got citrus and just heat to keep that from freezing. My heating bill is very low. Yours won't be much either if properly done with plants that will take some mid winter cold. My greenhouse is in the 30s at night for about six months. Yours could be colder for 4 months and still add two months to your growing season.

Fruitnut,

Why not one step further growing in a warehouse with grow lights so you can control ALL the aspects? 24 hours light vs 12 hours natural light means crops in 1/2 the time???

Visiting epcot 30 years ago seeing the hydroponic plants I thought we would be farming that way today. I am interested in what you are doing, but zoning doesn't allow it in residential subdivisions. It would be interesting to do a cost of farming and quality of produce comparison with your set up vs traditional outside gardening.

Scott:

I know what you mean about a steep learning curve. I'm still learning but that's part of what makes it interesting.

Humidity control is a key issue with my setup. Lots of beginners would rot all their stone fruit thinking that high humidity is needed. I keep mine as low as possible. That means running an exhaust fan 24/7 in summer. But that also keeps out some key pests that would be drawn to the smell of fruit...they can't fly in thru the exhaust fan without getting whacked. It still gets to 100% humidity many nights and on rainy days. The only fruit that gets a little rot without being damaged first is sweet cherries, maybe a couple percent loss.

Strawberries were harvested a week ago (I don't have any this year but friends do). I'll harvest pie cherries Sunday. The wild raspberries are starting to turn. The wild mulberries have a few colored up. Apples look to be on schedule to start in about a month and they will take me to November.

I think nectarines work here but may require measures to battle frost some years. I imagine plout would too if it's anything like plums. I think when I had plums they were harvested in July. I imagine I had plums frost damaged, but I've also had butternut get frost damaged.

Those frost battling measures like setting up a sprinkler or covering a plant aren't required every year.
I used to do season extending stuff like Joe-IL is doing and his raising and lowering of the sides needs done about every day. And not only that but trying to get the garden tilled in February is a chore. I figured up what I was getting earlier and thus longer and it wasn't that much for the amount of labor involved.
I've since decided to stop battling nature and work with it.

To cover what I have in my yard would be property line to property line. Not only would zoning not allow that it would destroy my yard for any other use.

Franktank232's issues are exactly what my parents ran into trying to have a greenhouse that sold cactus. Too hot in the summer and too cold and unstable in the winter.
You say it doesn't need heated but you're in zone 7. Plus you're not considering the angle of the sun and hours of light. If you step too far out up here you need to provide light.

Garedneck, plants need rest. I did an experiment in highschool science, 24 hours does strange things.

garedneck:

My system won't be winning any cost comparisons. But if I get the water right, and that's the key management issue for quality, then this fruit ranks with the very best I've found anywhere. Most of my fruit has been running 14 to 24 brix. Anything above 16 is good with most fruit.

1. Zoning, covenants, obviously.

2. Very hard to do a good jack-leg deployment suitable for a residential neighborhood. Neighbor had a kind of pre-fab plastic greenhouse of translucent plastic, kind of like a giant, extra-thick milk jug. A clever idea, basically. It was big enough to be walk-in. It was left over from his predecessor. I imagine it was pretty nifty the first year, but then the plastic turned yellow. My neighbor never used it and when he moved out the new guy had it hauled away.

3. a home-made jack-leg deployment is even harder.

* * * *

A more professional installation would be quite expensive, (no, I haven't checked, but we all know).

Even if you have the bucks, a professional installation to residential standards is specialty contracting, that requires a lot of site by site thought.

Still, I'm with you. In my area high dollar houses very often have "casitas" or guest quarters, next to them. I would think a combination "casita/greenhouse" would be a reasonable next step. Living quarters with the "living room" being a spiffed up greenhouse, that would be useable as a sun-room say eight or nine months of the year. I've never seen anything like that around here. Not without some justification;even a small mistake in orientation or ventilation or draperty can mess you up with a drafty installation, balky equipment or an expensive heating bill.

The pieces seem to be coming together:

1. Interest in indoor/outdoor architectural styles.

2. Interest in "permaculture"

3. Better automation of things like HVAC; better use of insulation, LED architecture.

4. Thanks to the dopers, automated plant tending.

I admire what you are doing.

A greenhouse sturdy enough to withstand my local weather would be an expensive investment. I don't see any huge advantage to it. It's dry here, so no problem with viruses or mildews. Not a lot of bugs, either.

I keep threatening to build a screen house around my apricots so the birds can't take one bite out of each and every fruit.

So far, the neighbors have been good sports about my christmas tree lights. I probably should leave well enough alone and not provoke them by building screened cubes around the trees.

I've got 2 acres, but no empty space large enough for a tree size greenhouse, unless I put it over the septic leach field, which I am sure the county would not give a permit for.

Fruitnut, I became a gardener because I'm in love with the outdoors and it allows me to be there every working day. Also the uncertainty of the harvest increases the reward when the prize comes. Admittedly, this can be a masochistic choreography but as gambling habits go, being an outdoor fruit grower is pretty benign.

In addition to being outdoors, I like working with dirt and plants and not plastic.

I too admire your work and contributions here and have noticed that you seem a bit frustrated in your lack of fellow indoor growers to correspond with. Being a pioneer has always been lonely, I guess, but the settlers will follow once the country is safe enough.

Living in a dry summer/mild winter zone as I do (with no threat of frosts), nature has provided me for free that which you are paying for ;).

Yes I still contend with bugs and birds, but I also get the pleasure of spending time outdoors. In fact, the bees, butterflies and ladybugs are also part of the bug community and I would sorely miss them. I love the feel of a breeze on my face as I garden. The vitamin D supplement I get from spending time outdoors every day is very important to my overall health and well being --not sure how a greenhouse would affect that (some studies suggest that sunlight, when filtered through glass for instance, is robbed of its Vitamin D-inducing properties). But for sure, I would spend less time overall gardening in a greenhouse because if you take away the outdoorsy experience, it becomes less pleasurable for me.

However, if I ever moved to zone 7, you can bet your bonnet that I would want a greenhouse to protect my crop.

Fruitnut: I applaud your efforts, at worst you may be eccentric, who cares, at best, ahead of the curve. All of us should be aiming for what works best in our area as you well know.

Speaking from experience, greenhouse and high tunnel culture are worlds vastly apart from outdoor culture, each have their own set of challenges and benefits. Probably the biggest set of challenges, depending on the regional climate, for the beginner is the relative lack of information on growing under cover when it comes to fruits. Being an atypical beginner to outdoor fruit culture, it is wonderful to have access to so much information ranging from published refereed journal research to gardening magazine articles. Though the learning curve is steep, at least there are many good footholds to use to climb the hill and many hands held out to help.

I suspect trying to find labeled pesticides for fruit crops under plastic is pretty challenging also.

Just curious what your water quality is like and soils as the 2 can lead to problems with salt accumulations over time depending on the water quality, soil type and irrigation practices.

Like many, our little postage stamp sized horticultural enterprise could definitely use more land, there is none available. Both my wife and I would love to put up a high tunnel for extended vegetable production but we lack the means. It is quite unfortunate as I easily have the expertise to erect and maintain a high tunnel and farm under plastic.

I just remembered a benefit you may not have ever mentioned to growing under plastic, you don't have to wear sunscreen to avoid sunburn! Darned it, now I really wish I had a high tunnel!

Good comments by all.

I've not personally witnessed tree fruits grown in high tunnels, but have seen tomatoes, raspberries and blueberries grown in high tunnels in three different operations.

In all cases, the testimony of the growers was the same - Earlier fruit, and a significantly higher percentage of marketable better quality fruit.

In two of the cases, the growers talked like high tunnels were the best decision they'd ever made. The third case was a research farm. The manager was equally pleased with the high tunnels.

Of course this doesn't at all take into consideration the quality of the work place, as others mentioned. Not that hoop houses look like bad places to work, but probably not as nice as out in the sunshine, sticking your hands in the dirt, etc.

This is going to sound conflicted, but I respect what you are doing even though itÂs the antithesis of what I am interested in. As America moves more toward the Euro-Socialist model, itÂs good to see some old fashioned rugged individualism on display. If we retain our remaining liberty there still might be enough room for all of us. IÂm going to assume that you have plans to profit from "Protected Fruit Culture" if you havenÂt already. IÂm fine with that as well  thereÂs nothing wrong with an honest days pay for an honest days work.

Frankly speaking, I have no interest in erecting a bio-dome on my property. My yard sits in a standard post-war suburban lot with a house built in the 50Âs. Even a tool shed seems odd and out of place.

My goal is to strike a balance with nature, on a give and take basis. I block the birds from access to my fruit trees, but I provide them water, other food and nesting materials. A win for what I want to accomplish is a win for every living thing in the vicinity. A walk in my garden is my rest, my labor of love  and the birds, insects and people who visit all appreciate my effort. Every thing is wide open. Chaos, surprise and unknown beauty are invited and apt to stay for a time. Tomorrow youÂll walk into your greenhouse and witness what brings you joy  while I will have a front row seat to the drama and uncertainty that is nature. Survival is a war that is waged daily, as it has been for ages. WeÂll both enjoy the fruits of our labor and our freedom from different angles.

I've debated trying to put together a small greenhouse over one of my vegetable raised beds. This would give me a place to overwinter things and try growing cool season crops into the winter months.

I have plans, if my numbers ever hit the lotto...lol, of building a greenhouse above my 4 season mud-room off the back of the house. Its thoroughly impractical, would face in totally the wrong direction and there is likely no way the city would allow it, but I can dream.

My biggest problems are lack of space, 1/8th of an acre, and the only south facing part of my yard is the front yard (and my front yard is only about 15 feet deep from sidewalk to the house).

I love reading your posts and wish I could get out there to see your set-up. I imagine it being like Logee's Greenhouse in Connecticut (with their indoor lemon tree)

~Chills

Fruitnut, like everyone above, I'd love to see pictures of your setup. I'm planning on buying a small greenhouse soon and will definitely at least grow some potted citrus, a few tropicals, low chill blueberries, strawberries, cherry tomatoes, and some greens. I also plan on experimenting with a few potted, non-citrus fruit trees. If that goes well, I've got the space for a high tunnel and would consider it.

In the meantime, what other fruit would you recommend growing in a minimally heated, double-wall polycarbonate, 8x16 greenhouse in zone 7A?

The best adapted fruits for a high tunnel or greenhouse that's not as well cooled as mine would be those that bloom late, have low chilling needs, and like or will tolerate high heat. Those would be fig, persimmon, grape, and pomegranate. Blueberries are very well adapted to pots but would do better outside in summer. Just use the structure to avoid late frost.

Stone fruit have the most exacting environmental needs. The learning curve may be too steep for some. And they will need a system well designed and operated for the local climate. But as the Chinese are proving in the reference posted above, this can be done on a large scale and in more than one climate.

I can think of a couple of really good reasons to grow fruit in greenhouses.

One would be if you grow enough fruit and have a high priced luxury clientele willing to pay super prices for vastly superior unblemished fruit.

The other reason will come, just wait and see. Any spray that works on pests, gets banned by the EPA. When we get to the point where nothing works on coddling moths, if you want fruit, you will have to protect it with a physical barrier.

I like farming. I like being outdoors. But I would also like working with plants and growing things in a greenhouse.

Truth be told -- I think many of us here *Would* truly be interested in "Protected" fruit culture...

Personally, I have no desire to share the majority of my fruit with Plum Curculio , Codling moth, and Brown rot...

I don't think that many back yard 1-tree growers will ever take a go at it... Even someone like me with 18 fruit trees -- I just can't put up a suitable greenhouse because of my zoning restrictions...

So.. We will have to Grow perfect fruit vicariously through you...

What I am left with is working to find more resistant fruits -- I am on the hunt to find old Homestead varieties that have survived with minimal care for 100+ years in the area... My other options are things that are historically resistant (Blueberries, figs, muscadines) or are uncommon enough to mostly avoid pressure (Like a Jujube)

Thanks

John

In all this talk I'm surprised no one has mentioned hydroponics, combining small space with high yields.

We have several shops around town now that have sophisiticated outfits sized for the small grower (developed of course for the pot farmers, who seem to be driving all the research and development in the industry).

Applenut