use cage traps , also known as live traps , as for disposal of the critter not sure what is legal there

That would be the lovely Roof Rat. Or Citrus/Tree Rat. The ground squirrels tend to eat the fruit right in the tree, take a few bites, move to the next apple, take a few bites, etc. Rats however, like to take the entire fruit to their den, and eat it there. You basically have one choice - poisoning. You CAN use poison, if you set it up carefully. I, too, have a dog in the yard, but I use special poison bait stations that are impossible for my large Aussie to open (not that he would, he's very well trained, and leaves my bait stations alone). The bait willl slide onto spikes, so the rat is forced to eat the bait in the station, and cannot take it out of the station to bury it or hide it (or drop it where your dogs could eat it.) I had an extensive discussion with both my vet, as well as the company that makes the poison bait. And, I'm a registered nurse as well, so I understand how the poison works. It is an anticoagulant very similar to Coumadin (Warfarin). If your dog were to eat a poisoned rat - which actually is very unlikely - the dosage would not be high enough to kill the dog, unless you're talking about a 2 or 3 lb. purse dog, and even then, the antidote is a shot of Vitamin K, which immediately counteracts the effects of the anticoagulant. Plus, the rat would then be larger than the dog :-) (I'm actually not kidding.) I have HORRID issues with both ground squirrels and roof rats. I have cleared out several roof rat nests in my large yard, by clearing out ground cover and bougainvillea debris, where they love to get in and nest. We had one even nesting in our outdoor barbeque station (disgusting). You can try snap traps, but you'll get more effect with poison bait stations, trust me. I spent a very large amount of time researching this. Forget humane traps for trap and release - it is very illegal to trap and release either ground squirrels or rats. They are considered pests in the state of California, and you'll get slapped with a lovely fine if you try dumping these pests in someone else's yard or area. Bird netting will not work. The rats will simply chew through it. Bait stations are just about the only way to go, and I'm still losing some fruit, but not at the rate I did last year (all 35 apples from my Anna gone. That was just too much, I've declared war on roof rats, now.)

Patty S.

Here is a link that might be useful: UC Davis IPM: Rat Management

It could also be possums--squirrels tend to leave chewed pieces everywhere, possums take the whole thing. Rats would be hard-pressed to take the whole thing--they usually take bites. But I have also had squirrels take oranges over 2 times the size of their heads, they just keep tipping over and then pick it up and keep going.

This is how I trap them--I called my city and was told it is OK to relocate squirrels, so I have placed a live trap baited with peanut butter or sunflower seeds, and SNAP, a trapped squirrel is inside freaking out. I pop the trap into my truck, drive to the nearest park, open it, and ZOOM, they are off into the nearest tree. NEXT!

Although I have come to detest squirrels, I don't want to be a cruel person, so---I try to release them at the same tree (to keep families together), I try to not trap mothers who are obviously nursing, and I try to not set the trap in the sun if I am not going to be home to oversee it, so they don't die of heatstroke.

Using a trap GREATLY decreased my fruit loss from squirrels when I was regularly using it. Call your city to see if relocating them would be OK.

Carla in Sac

When I lived in CA, the roof rats didn't bother the apples but the 2-leggers did.

I agree with Carla trapping lessens theft and makes a happy orchard. Over here on Long Island regulations prohibit trapping and releasing wildlife. Says disease and overpopulation. Actually a felony to trap wildlife not on your own property with out a license. I was letting them out of the trap on the way to work. There was too many and risky so I stopped. The laws here allow destruction(only) of nuisance critters on ones property. I keep a garbage can full of water where I dip the watering can for a fast fill. The trap with Mr Squirrel goes in and all movement stops in about 30 seconds. Several minutes have gone by after I dig a hole in the compost pile and in goes Mr. Squirrel, RIP. I have released a rare black grey Squirrel five times. She doesn't freak out in the trap anymore just sits like a cute bunny.

My vote is for killing vermin, but if you want to go a more "friendly" route, have you tried pepper juice? Get the hottest peppers you can find (probably habaneros), juice them (trust me, don't use a juicer, its like macing yourself), and smear the apples down in habenero juice.

To my knowledge, humans are the only creatures on earth stupid enough to eat hot peppers, so that should dissuade them. ;)

Thanks for all the advice. Seems like a trap is the only way to go. I don't think I could drown the thieves, but maybe my husband can! My dogs are kept inside at night, so maybe I could put the trap(s) outside then. A trap would help identify what animal is committing the apple snatches.

I also have Meyer lemon and navel orange trees in the backyard, along with a large vegetable garden with seasonal tomatoes, zucchini and beans. All of these have been untouched.

However, I have seen squirrels raid the seeds in the bird feeder during the day and a roof rat on the feeder at night when I turned on the yard floodlight.

I can, and would gladly drown them, along with any ground piggy I catch. I know, I'll have to defend myself from the ACLU attorneys - that's fine. I'll save a woodchuck and release it in the courtroom!

Mike

Exclusion would be most effective and easiest too. Since these things have to climb up the trunk to steal the fruit, all you have to do is construct a baffle of sheet metal somewhere between the ground and the first branches (I hope these are not too low to the ground like on my tree), or simply wrap some sheet metal around the first few feet of the trunk.

If you can do this effectively, it will be so much easier than the constant trapping or application of pepper spray.

Oh, and by the way, humans may be the only MAMMALS crazy enough to eat hot chiles, but BIRDS have been doing it for many thousands of years, since the heat in chiles has evolved to cater to birds (and exclude mammals) for seed dispersal.

My latest strategy is mylar balloons. My grand-daughter gave me 5 nice mylars for mother's day. Yesterday, I tied one to my Anna apple, and it is still out there bobbing and weaving on one of the branches.

My idea was to scare away the blue jay that I see lately, (my kitchen window looks out above the tree), but I also see a mocking bird chasing the blue jay AWAY from the tree, unmindful of the balloon!

Interestingly, the apples are all intact.

I still think the birds may get their pecks, but it is the squirrels, raccoons and possibly rabbits - that will take the bushels (ahem), if they can. Soooo - I am using CD's (computer compact disks - turning, flashing in the sun, and mylar balloons. I still haven't lost the first round at least not yet.

The balloons seemed to work well for the night-time critters, and I have reserve the other 4 balloons for the apricot, plum and almond trees - so far, so good.

Just my 2 c's.

Bejay

P.S. I think I chased a vole out of the area. My grandson caught a small mouse - I stuffed it down a vole's burrow and let the hose run. They don't seem to like the odor very much.

B.

I'd 1st try live traps to verify which critter you have. if it's rats &?or ground squirrels you can drown them. if you use a trash can for drowning use a clothes pin or something similar to secure the trap door. I use a wheel barrow. Relocating any animal is illegal in most states. If you use snap traps secure them by screwing them to a board or wiring them to something. Critters sometimes drag them off. The disadvantage of snap traps is the killing of occasional birds.
poison work well too.

Ground squirrels are more the fruit eaters than rats, but it could certainly be both. I've never had to deal with rats so that's an inexpert opinion, though.

Squirrels only leave little bits of fruit when they're "teething" on green fruit. Ripe fruit they remove whole and people often don't detect them.

Possums usually knock off lots of fruit and climb down the tree to eat until they're full, leaving some to rot. Coons also usually leave some trace- not to mention poop.

In Topanga in S. Ca. it was always the ground squirrels who were the worst of fruit thieves and we had plenty of all the above. Now in southeastern NY it's the tree squirrels.

If you are in densely populated part of the bay area (San Francisco, Oakland, Berkeley, the peninsula, etc.), I would bet you could trap rats and squirrels forever and not put a dent in the native population. I lived in Rockridge for a while and we had rats nearby and it was an endless supply of them getting into our shed, etc.

I wonder if bagging apples would be effective and somehow tying them onto the tree. There were fabric peach bags that allowed for tying onto the tree that someone suggested a while ago for peach protection.

Sharppa--
you just made the point I was thinking about when I suggested my exclusion idea above -- trapping just buys you some time until the population adjusts. In areas heavily populated with the animals in question, and where resources such as your apples are at a premium, this may not be any time at all...

I have to admit I've never excluded rodents from my apple trees using sheet metal, but I've done something similar to keep my cats from my dovecote, and the idea is employed all the time with birdhouses and birdfeeders, to discourage cats and squirrels mostly. I'm sure it would work really well in this case, just takes a little ingenuity (but certainly not the hassle of dealing with poisons, traps, and such).

Anybody out there tried this?

I am a big fan of Kania traps. They are lethal traps for squirrels (and will work on rats as well I expect). After trying three other kind of squirrel traps that did not work I tried these guys and have been a happy backyard fruit eater ever since.

One other method I have used is what harvestman above alludes to: cotton drawstring parts bags to bag the apples, tying them firmly to the tree with the drawstring. Its a lot of work and the squirrels will chew through some of the bags but it really slows them down. Spray the bags with hot pepper to further slow 'em.

Scott

Get a Cat they will wipe out an entire population with in no time.

Dont go setting up traps like people are saying on here.

Mastergardener1, from my experience you are mistaken. Cat's won't wipe out squirrels in most situations. I've seen this even with cats that bring down some squirrels, and many don't. What exactly is your objection to traps? Some elaboration is in order, I think.

I have two feral pound cats in my yard most of the time and I've never seen them take down a squirrel. The squirrels give them a wide berth but there are plenty of parts of my yard where the cats are not and so they go there.

Scott

I understand the no guns rule but my grandpa used to have a very strong pellet gun that could take them out.Pump it up a few times and let them have it. I would recommend that option.

Mastergardener, cats won't touch our roof rat and ground squirrel population. Instead, they'll decimate our wonderful song birds (domestic cats are the #1 killer of song birds in the United States). Better to keep your cats inside, and either trap or poison rodents. Pellet guns are mostly not an option in California, unless you're in a very rural area, and frankly, I don't have time to sit around and watch for a rat or squirrel to show up so I can pop them with a pellet gun. Here is a good link on how to manage ground squirrels. You can also search UC Davis IPM web site for roof rats as well. I did buy a couple of Conibear traps, which are supposed to be the best for ground squirrels. I may try setting them up this weekend and see if I catch any ground squirrels. I do have a big fat one that is living down in my lower yard that occasionally sneaks up to try to each my birdseed. It is now liberally laced with Cayenne Pepper, so he's not bothered the platform feeder for about a week.

Patty S.
(Master Gardener 2004)

Here is a link that might be useful: UC Davis IPM: Ground Squirrel Control

I am with Patty. I live in the woods with no pets or neighbors. The rats got so bad I got not a single fruit from 20 fruit trees, and there was no doubt that rats were to blame. Last year I made a necklace of wire around each fruit tree, with fruit. I strung each necklace with rat bar bait, four to six bars per necklace. Every morning I restrung my necklaces. Within the first week I ran the local supply out of bait and had to drive 20 miles to the next Tractor Supply and bought all they had. Took two weeks to use that all up and went back before they had their new stock. Found new store. I spent more than $50 on rat bait before they stopped cleaning it up every night. We were not fast enough to save the plums or pears but did enjoy our apples. The woods did smell of dead rats, but we got used to it. I am stockpiling bait for this year. Al

Just weighing in on the cat issue--my cat has had access to the outdoors now for 5 years and he kills at least one rodent (gopher, mouse, or rat)every day (which I find evidence of, believe me!) however in all that time I have only found evidence of one bird kill--the long feathers of a pidgeon.

I realize that domestic cats are considered the biggest killers of songbirds, however, not my cat. It seems, based on a small bit of google research, that each cat tends to have his/her own "specialty" prey; some like birds, some like rodents, some even get into fishing if they have access. Now and then a cat will be a jack of all trades and kill some of each. I guess what I am saying is that if you have a rodent specialist, that's desirable and you won't have to worry so much about the songbirds. However, I know of no way to tell until your cat actually gets out there and starts to hunt, what his specialty will be. If my cat had turned out to be a songbird killer I would have kept him indoors.

Regardless--I also have to agree with the above poster that said that it is rare for a cat to go after squirrels. You'll have to either trap or poison them I'm afraid.

First what are your little dogs? I have jack russels who are trained to hunt. I put 10 inch windowsills on one window on each side of the house (inside). The farm fields and orchards reach from 100 - 300 yards in 300 degrees. When I here a low growl and the other dog scratch the door I go to the growler and look. then take app action pellet pistol for squirl 30-06 for black bear ect. . They always get a reward for their work "whole red squirl, heart and liver of large gray squirl , piece of the hart on a deer". to bad for them I like deer hart so much. pellet pistols are not all the same get a good spring cock like beaman tempest and practice. Most dogs can learn to hunt one of mine is bouncing like a pogo stick the other has a tail wagging his body when they see me grab a gun.

How confident are you that the human species can't overcome your fence enroute to a big bag of free homegrown apples? Or is it the incredible respect for others' property that would keep them shopping for apples at the grocery store? It has been said that the best tasting watermelon is the one stolen from a grower's field. My elderly uncle had a huge, super-productive navel orange tree which furnished large, sweet fruit for many family members. The nightly stealing eventually drove him to cut down the wonderful tree.

CWC, tough neighborhood!

Hmm. I may be a little cold-hearted but it seems to me the same approach to the two-legged pests would work: traps, attack animals, hot pepper, pellet gun, etc. Or use your floodlight on motion-sensor and put your webcam on your laptop near the window to record all night.

If someone came at night to my orchard to steal fruit I'd fire a shotgun over their head... the first time.

HAH, harvestman!! I probably would do the same damn thing. Bad enough battling the rats, squirrels and bunnies here - worse than Indiana by FAR and MD, too. But to have human being steal your fruit, unbelieveable. Crazy bad here with rodents, I was reallyl shocked when I moved back to California. I don't remember it being this bad, but then, I didn't have as many fruit trees at that time (just a few citrus trees). And here where I live, you could never leave a small dog or especially a cat outside - they've be coyote fodder in 2 seconds as we have large coyote populations (due to the gigantic numbers of squirrels, rats and bunnies). Even though we have a large number of predators - coyotes, snakes, hawks, eagles and owls, we cannot keep the rodent population in check, here. Al is experiencing the same thing, but up in Calistoga. It is the same issue down here in the rural areas of N. San Diego county.

Patty S.