You know, what they don't mention is that all the healthy food (organic veg and fruit) is also unaffordable to low income people, which I am sure consists largely of younger people. Maybe if the government stopped subsidizing big agriculture, specifically corn and soy, all the crappy meat and carbs that are so cheap today, and unhealthy, would become unaffordable.

I am lucky I grow most of my veg

just my thoughts.

Sam

orto, first off, I would like to say that fruits and veggies most definitely don't have to be organic to be healthy. Yes, there are studies that show that organic fruits and veggies contain more nutrients, but there are just as many that show that's not the case. Also, I've read a lot of the ones that say organic is healthier, and their research methods are seriously flawed.

Also, I don't think it's all because fruits and veggies are expensive (although that is part of it). The big problem is that MANY people my age (I'm 28) grew up in households were fruits and veggies weren't standard items on the dinner table. Quite a few of my peers won't eat a lot of veggies because they say they don't like them. Most times, when I ask, they haven't ever tried them! As a kid, I wasn't forced to eat my veggies, but I wasn't allowed to have dessert (my true "passion") unless I did.

Another thing is that I think a much lower percentage of young people eat meals at home, and restaurant menus aren't exactly abundant in fruits and veggies.

Well I'll have to admit that when chicken is $0.79/lb, steak is $1.99/lb, tomatoes are $3.49/lb and squash is $1.99/lb, the veggies roll to the bottom of the list.

I think there is a lot to the economics of what's available in certain markets. We certainly ate more fruits and veggies growing up on a PYO farm or living in Florida than we now do in living in DC.

fwiw, we don't eat out much either (having to support in-laws)

Quoting fruitgirl "orto, first off, I would like to say that fruits and veggies most definitely don't have to be organic to be healthy. Yes, there are studies that show that organic fruits and veggies contain more nutrients, but there are just as many that show that's not the case. Also, I've read a lot of the ones that say organic is healthier, and their research methods are seriously flawed. "

Dear fruitgirl

Nothing like a nice discussion about interesting material to keep the mind off a boring job

May I add that my comments regarding organic veg and fruits as being healthier, were more to exemplify the extreme case of cost of fresh produce at the grocery. Conventionally produced fruit and veg is certainly not unhealthy, but it is still expensive. I agree with you that scientific bias and funding confounds are found within many of the studies surrounding organic vs. non organic. However, these biases come from both sides, and personally I am more likely to side against industry when my own health is concerned. I must admit that I am not familiar with the scientific literature surrounding the subject, but I have read some powerful and well supported arguments in the Omnivores Dilemma by Michael Pollan and ÂFood Not Lawns by HC Flores, about the nutritional disparity between organic and conventionally produced veg and meat.

The ironic thing is that when real costs (remove subsides and consider costs incurred from damage to the environment) are accounted for, organic farming is much cheaper than conventional farming

By the way I am 29

Cheers
Sam

I think a part of the reason people don't eat more fruit is, besides not being 'convenient', supermarket stuff sucks. Most is imported from overseas and shipped long distances unripe, and then the stores don't handle it properly and fruit goes bad while on display. Seems few people know what's in season when so they have no clue that a peach in February HAS to be coming from the southern hemisphere. Then when that Chilean peach is rock hard and tasteless, well who's going to waste money on a peach again??

Organic v. conventional doesn't even factor into it. Even conventionally produced fruit is better for you than convenience foods. Supermarket produce sucks, and farmer's markets are inconvenient. People work hard and have busy schedules and no land to grow their own stuff on. No one's fault, just the way things are.

It was a nice idea, to have a wider variety of produce available year round, but it isn't working. Pushing people to buy locally produced stuff would help that - produce would have to be in season and it would taste better.

Anyway I don't believe that produce is expensive, it's just that we've been conditioned to believe that food should be as cheap as possible so we'll have more money left over for junk we don't need like clothes and toys and electronics and expensive cars and movies ... I'd rather spend more money on better food and skip the useless junk, but our economy requires we buy a constant stream of junk. So food has to be cheap.

Fruits and Veggies are not expensive!!! Where are you getting chicken for .79 a pound?? And what steak do you buy for 1.99. Not one I would waste money on. I buy my fruit for 1.00 a pound on average. I cant disagree more. And how much more food is a whole head of lettuce for a buck compared to a little piece of meat you would get. I definitely agree that the quality is a turn off. People have no idea what a ripe plum or strawberry can taste like after buying out of season junk from the store. I think I am spoiled by living where I do in agricultural Southern California, I will admit to that. However I pay for it in housing...

It is sad that not many people eat veggies and fruit as much as recommended.
I always bring fruit and vegetable to work and hand them out to people. Everyday I have an odd fruit to the average american. Today I brought for lunch a Blood Orange, a Persimmon, Asian pears, and dried figs and appricots.
While these fruit are popular and well known in other countries, they're not known to many people in the States.
I spoke to my company's head manager, about how most of us at work not eating healthy and should be eating more fruit. Now at least 2 times a week all the managers go around and bring apples and bananas to the offices.

Bass

The same people not buying much produce are loading up their carts with chips, pop, candy, muffins, steaks, cigarettes, booze...look at the unit costs of these products and then tell us produce is being eschewed because it's expensive. Many of us just have immature preferences and that is the extent of it. One couple - yes, I've heard both of them say this, independently - I know likes to say that the good thing about being an adult is that you can eat what you want. Both are overweight. I went shopping with the female member of the equation and she picked out a big box of cream puffs, two gallons of whole milk (just for him!), was going to get a big package of cut meat but left it there...

It IS true that there is a problem with produce not being available to some inner city residents.

bonsaist,

Are there any job openings at your company? ;) :)

I sometimes offer to give my students (I'm a math teacher) bonus points on their quizzes if they can identify the fruit in my lunch for that day.

Things like Pawpaw are never identified, but neither were currants (did you know we import them from Chile?), persimmons (from Israel), Asian pears (who know where they were from) or figs.

~Chills

Murky, We are diffinitely hiring, lol. I'm in the Engineering at T-mobile, we also have a Gym with 4 trainers starting next week.
Chills, Asian pears are coming from Chile now, in september they come from Ca. Persimmons depending on the season, if you see the label saying Sharon Fruit this would be the Israeli product, it's usually available in winter. Israelies pick them in fall and store them until the demand is high in winter, when other persimmon producers are out.
I recently found Hardy Kiwi coming from Newzealand in the local supermarket, labeled as Baby Kiwi. $2.99 for about 20 peices.

Bass

I agree with bboy and would like to say that not only are people too lazy to eat right, they are too lazy to have a garden. I know a great many people that do not have enough money to even buy enough food, but are too lazy to grow a garden when they have the land and the water. they always have excuses.
When you talk about subsidies in American agriculture you need to understand that there are relatively few subsidies for the fruits and vegetable growers. In America the wages that must be paid are making it less profitable all the time to grow this stuff. the EU, Canada and others subsidizes its fruit growers much more than the USA. Much more!
The apple that sells in the supermarket brings about ten to fifteen cents to the grower(and they are happy to get it). the rest is sorting and packing at the big packing house, trucking; and most of all markups by the supermarket. The $2.50 per pound sweet cherry brings the grower about fifty to sixty cents, and in some cases much less, or even nothing.
I do some direct maketing. Young people today don't even know what fruit is supposed to taste like. They eat peach flavor ice cream, but let them eat a tree ripened peach and their mouth drops open. But, you can't find tree ripened much and they are incredibly difficult to harvest and sell, let alone grow organically.
The schools are only given a few cents per day to feed each child and so buy the cheapest fruit they can. They buy the oldest, poorest flavored apples that have been in storage for sometimes over a year. the kids then don't develop a taste for apples. And we wonder why.
So Americans don't eat right because they are lazy, it is too hard to find the good stuff with flavor and they are uninformed.

Bass,

Please save me some seeds from those 'Baby kiwi'! The markets here seem to be the last place on earth to get newer fruits, so I probably won't see them for another decade (I will drop by Publix and take a peak-just in case). We see some half rotten yellow kiwi's here for about one week every other year. Folks here would not know what a good fresh one even looks like, much less what it tastes like. Good thing I am now growing my own.

~kiwinut

This is certainly an interesting discussion and I, off the top of my head, can think of several reasons why Americans don't eat as much fruit or veggies.

I think part of the American relationship with food has to do with our culture and values. The fast food and meats easily satisfy people's immediate hunger and give them that "full" feeling. Many people think of food in terms of taste, not health benefits. We appreciate foods for their sweetness or saltiness and, on the whole, I don't think we can appreciate how amazing fruits and vegetables taste when we encounter less than terrific fruits and veggies. Americans, unlike other cultures, are taught that happiness should be the norm. Fast food can easily give one that instant feeling of satisfaction. Unlike the French, I don't think American savor and think about food as much, for instance.

Also, if one only encounters imported, usually flavorless fruit, they're not going to understand how terrific that fruit can really taste when you grow it...or how fulfilling and easy it can be to grow your own food.

I have to agree that when you're not financially well off, and when you don't have access to transportation, fruit and veggies arn't the most attractive options. Buying foods you can freeze, that come in cans, and that are loaded with preservatives, is what my family did, for the most part, when I was growing up. Our local market, in Detroit, charged more for their fruits and veggies than the ones next door in the suburbs.

I also think that we have plenty of advertising for foods, just not veggies and fruits.

Mika

Extension in my state recommends the self-fruitful 'Anna'. If the fruits mentioned here are from this or a similar variety maybe they do not have viable seeds - the fruits having been produced without cross-pollination, perhaps even parthenocarpically?

Reg_pnw - I think you hit the nail on the head:

we've been conditioned to believe that food should be as cheap as possible so we'll have more money left over for junk we don't need...I'd rather spend more money on better food and skip the useless junk, but our economy requires we buy a constant stream of junk. So food has to be cheap.

I just had to say "no" to a lot of the "stuff" everyone else is buying, because we have no health insurance but make too much to qualify for state help - when you have to be responsible for your own future, healthwise, you really get serious about starting your own garden. That's what we did. And I have seen DIRECT benefits from more F&V consumption. We NEVER go to the doctor - never need to! I think too many people have the attitude that, "Oh if I get sick, the doctor will take care of it." But why all the needless suffering - how about not getting sick at all!!! I love it!!

BTW - where in WA do you live?? We're out in Cheney- Spokane. I just ordered some Nanking Cherries to plant out here - can't wait for their arrival!!! How's your garden doing?

Let's be real about this...

The best tasting food is the stuff that's not good for you. I don't why that is. Maybe it's God's way of playing a joke. If vegetables tasted like donuts, we would all be stuffing ourselves with vegetables. But I have yet to grow anything that tasted like a donut.

For many years I could not tolerate the taste of vegetables. I thought they were all disgusting, and I was right. They really were disgusting. But as I got older my taste buds changed and I developed a liking for vegetables. But they still have to be prepared in such a way as to make them taste good, or I won't eat them.

Fruits, on the other hand...

Everyone enjoys fruits, don't they? Especially in a pie!!

;-)

Bass, there is a place in Pa not far off 80 (if I recall correctly) which grows baby-kiwi for sale to retail markets. I know I'm too far to see the fruits (lol) of their labors, but I would guess they would be more common for you in Pa.

Also, has anyone heard anything about that hardy kiwi selection that is self-fertile (and I'm not referring to Issai, but a numbered selection that is supposedly better than Issai)? The last thing I need is to add another kiwi (especially since I have yet to see a bloom on my 5 year old vines) but I was wondering if anyone had any knowledge of this other variety.

~Chills

Spokaneannie, I'm in Olympia. I lost my garden and orchard to divorce. Now I make do with a tiny patch of illicitly converted lawn barely big enough for a few head of lettuce and some peas or beans. This year I am trying potatoes in chicken wire baskets. I live in a rental, on glacial gravelly till, in a neighborhood overrun with raccoons and norway rats. Hard to keep them out of the garden, even with 2 dogs actively patrolling. Anyone see the NatGeo special on urban raccoons?? that was us, westside Olympia. I could take care of them pretty quickly if this weren't a no shooting zone ... but the neighbors think they're cute and leave out food for them. Though I must say the rats are more destructive to the garden as they burrow under fencing that keeps raccoons at bay. We'll see if I get any potatoes or strawberries.

The soil is poor for growing most edibles anyway, and the summers too cool. Best growing crop around here is Doug fir, and you can't eat that; but it likes the gravelly soil and dry summers and it's native. Greens and peas and berries grow very well in better soil but you can only eat so much of those. Fruit trees can do well enough, but the landlady doesn't want me planting trees so I have dwarf peach and apples in pots. And anyway I wouldn't be here long enough to harvest anything off trees I planted.

We do have a farmer's market here in Oly, and another one in Lacey, but it's kinda hard for me to get to because of its limited hours. Also the Oly one limits produce to that grown in WA so no citrus. We get to-die-for tree fruits from Yakima, and local berries and greens, and root crops from the Skokomish and Chehalis Valleys where the soil is decent, and nuts and kiwis from Morton. But they're only open a few days a week, not at all in winter, and they close at 3pm. how's a working person to shop there?? I don't do errands on weekends, I save those for adventures; and going to the farmer's market does not count.

bboy, Anna requires a pollinator. Your extension office seems to have it confused with Issai. The baby kiwi are a new patented, and very much improved hardy kiwi. You can't get the plants, so seeds are the only legal recourse.

Chills, you may be referring to '119-40b' that Hartmann's offers. I have it. It has not bloomed yet, but may do so this spring. It is later to break bud than the other argutas here, so it should be good for frost avoidance, even if it turns out to not be self-fertile.

~kiwinut

chills you're talking about kiwiberry farms, it's about 1.5 hrs away. I would love to visit them later this summer.

Kiwinut, I've emailed you but I guess you can't recieve the email I sent.
If you like some seeds, I can extract some of them for you.

Bass

WSU doesn't say the 'Ananasnaya' is self-fertile, that part was my mistake.

"At Mount Vernon we have tested various kiwis for about 18 years. The most promising for our area have been the smooth-skinned varieties known as hardy kiwis (A. arguta) which are hardy to -25 F. Anna (Ananasnaya) has been the most promising variety but several new ones are on trial including some with a reddish skin color. Kiwis need a male plant for pollination spaced between every 8 female plants."

Hi Bass,

I tried to email you, but maybe you did not get it. I found the "baby kiwi" here at Harris Teeter. These look alot like 'Kens Red' fruits, but may be one of the new varieties called 'Hortgem Rua'. These new varieties are selected to store much longer, which may be the reason they are showing up in US markets now. No need for seeds now, but thanks for the offer.

~kiwinut

Great thread. I just had to jump in. I fall in the "younger" age bracket, and totally agree that our society and culture discourage healthy eating.
I have a friend who is a nutritionist and does free health seminars. In the last one, it was stated that the average person in the US consumes 1 serving of fruits and vegetables every 10 days. At first I thought this was exagerated until I started thinking about how my inlaws all eat and began to realize that they are the norm. It is truly incredible!
In my own novice studies of health, I found that our taste buds have "memories" and that it takes 28 days to break food habits--this gives sufficient time for all the old taste buds to be replaced with new ones that have never tasted that certain food. Then all you have to deal with is emotional memory...which can be difficult.
My children, gratefully, eat way more than the average. I have found that I spend the same amount on groceries by cutting all the convenience items and replacing them with f and v. And we garden too. (in fact, I came to this forum because I am planning out my fruit and nut orchard--yeah!) And produce can be expensive when you buy enough for your family to eat the RDA--but I'd rather do that than have dr. bills, as well! I hope that I am giving my children the gift of a lifetime--health!
Fruits and veggies do taste good--when in season, grown from your garden, picked up at the f. market, and when prepared right. My son would rather eat apples or two raw sweet potatoes (cut like carrots) than a "real" lunch any day. I am hoping that I can be that good, someday!=)
Dannic, 27, mother of 2 and 2/3, lol