If an herb has historical and clinical uses to treat anxiety, if it also is shown to reduce anxiety in mice, if it is also shown to be a potent GABA agonist in experiments with nerve tissue, and if I take it and feel quite relaxed and my palpitations cease, then my perspective as a scientist is that there is good evidence that the herb in fact does reduce anxiety." No, that's not the perspective of a scientist. It's the opinion of an herb user who wants to believe that a remedy works. That's why you'll never see a scientific study close with remarks by the authors saying "well, our evidence is only preliminary, but since this stuff worked for us we think that no further research is necessary." They'd be laughed out of their profession. There is no "EBM community" at odds with the scientific and medical community. The people who are most interested in optimizing medical care and making it as rational and effective as possible naturally are drawn to these principles, and work closely with physicians and hospitals to promote evidence-based care. When it comes to herbalism, there are basically three sorts of users (conveniently, all three are represented in this thread). First there are those who don't care about scientific validation of herbs (or at least profess this opinion). There are others who strongly believe in the value of good scientific evidence for the safety and efficacy of herbs before they'll use them, especially for more than minor conditions or as substitutes for mainstream therapies. There's also a large group of people who, like apollog, seem to want it both ways. They'll call attention to scientific studies that appear to support their position. But when it's noted that those studies are irrelevant to the topic at hand, limited in important ways and more evidence is needed, they'll fall back on testimonials, point fingers at other types of medical practice (the tu quoque fallacy), or deny the legitimacy of scientific inquiry that invalidates their arguments. This latter form of denial can be summarized as "Your science can never adequately measure my brand of woo." This is what has people devoted to sound scientific inquiry and rational medicine shaking their heads. They want advocates of all forms of health care to follow the rules by which the value of care can be established, including valid research and disciplined clinical observation. Unfortunately there are still self-styled advocates of herbalism who think the rules apply only when convenient. LOL.

Osteoarthritis can begin with an injury or repetitive motion. In my case, my OA in the spine is from scoliosis, causing uneven wear on the discs. Ice therapy reduces the swelling which takes the pressure off the nerves and relieves the pain. Heat helps loosen stiff joints and that relieves pain. NSAIDs (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs) like Ibuprophen and Naproxyn work but also have the potential for kidney damage if taken over a long period. I have found that wraps and/or braces help from over-working the affected joint and that helps reduce pain. Some non-traditional methods like acupuncture, Bowen Massage therapy and chiropractic adjustments are just as valid as drug therapy. I've even tried an older anti-depressant, Nortriptyline, that helped with nerve pain. Anything to keep flexible and mobile. However, I do believe that some drs. will diagnose arthritis as a blanket statement for various joint ailments including tendonitis, "slight" joint dislocations and strained muscles. I wonder what my dr. will say is causing the strange lump on the side of my wrist that behaves like arthritis but isn't. Dare I suggest a ganglion nerve cyst? Before I see my dr., I try all the available OTC remedies in an effort to reduce the symptoms. By then, I've narrowed down the possibilites and eliminated the "have you tried...?" scenarios. Lessens the probability that I will be brushed off. Carol

My thoughts align with SG for the most part, however, I have witnessed post-partum hallucinogenic psychosis and have known suiciders that no amount of self-will training or loving support from others would have prevented. There is a very real need for medicines which manipulate brain chemistry, and fortunately we have progressed in our ability to protect the most fragile in times of severe crisis. I hope that we can all be sensitive and respectful of people who have to resort to urgent pharmological interventions as the most effective and life-enhancing treatment for some types of depression, psychosis and other forms of severe manifestations of emotional distress. By and large, we've come to recognize and accept that brain chemistry and circuitry problems are indeed real physical diseases and that, just as with other diseases, there are various approaches to treating these types of illnesses. But SG's suggestion that it is an industry that is undermining our health is well-founded. Yes, there are appropriate usages for these drugs, but caveat emptor: there are several studies that suggest there is a price yet to be determined in terms of long-term cognitive ability with protracted use of anti-depressants. Consequently, they are currently in disfavor in much of Europe after having been tried, and other more natural treatments are now more routinely explored initially. I don't think these meds are the panacea to be used to mask garden variety discomfort, and I believe that is the segment that is best addressed by SG's approach. I concur with SG and others who suggest that far too many have been persuaded the appropriateness of dealing pharmocologically with the discomfort that is a consequence of simply being human. Grief, anger and other unpleasant emotions serve a real purpose, are often very appropriate responses, and are an intrinsic part of our journey. Often anxiety and difficult emotions are a sign that we really have difficult inner homework to do, and I'd opt for working through the issues whenever possible rather than placating through meds. (I hope readers understand my emphasis is on whenever possible and repeat I'm well aware that it is not always possible or advisable.) My SS, a neurologist, and some physician friends do not agree, and often routinely recommend for themselves and their patients meds to deal with stress and unhappiness rather than undertaking the arduous task of changing the structure of one's life and/or learning healthier responses to challenges. Ergo, it seems we will continue to be less able as a society to go down the path SG suggests. I believe many would be better served by accessing inner resources than by pills, but also know that a requisite foundation of skills, or access to a means to acquire this knowledge, is not within reach for some. Philosophically I can agree with SG that the answers lie within, and wholeheartedly endorse our responsibility to respond with love at all times, but IRL I know some are equipped with damaged circuits through no fault of their own upon arrival as Kkay suggests and others whose circuitry becomes damaged from illness, toxins or accidents, some have been badly wounded experientially, and some just may prefer an easier way out. I'm not sure that SG said there is no physical basis for depression. "Depression/anxiety is actually being stuck, neural-activity wise, in the primal mind of the lower brain." Rather, I understood her comment to signal a real understanding of physiological responses but that we can trigger better responses by substituting different thought patterns, widely endorsed by cognitive therapists and other gurus. SG is quite capable of defending herself, but I know many intelligent, non-cult, independent thinkers, medical professionals and main-stream religious and total non-religious types who concur with this approach. There is no one path to wholeness, and while it is always preferable to rely on inner resources and loving support, it is not always possible. Wholesale dismissal of alternate, non-pharm approaches is not helpful nor is insistence on innate ability to cope with severe illness without intervention. Intelligent discussions of this type can be a wonderful resource for countless anonymous readers in cyberworld who are facing difficulties, seeking solutions and who may need encouragement to face another day.

[swoon] How emotional was I just to read igloochic's name? Bless you Sweet Woman for your words. Even though I don't even know your real name I have thought of you so freaking often on this journey. We were at Johns Hopkins and you know I thought of you there! And no, no one there thought to do this kind of testing and knew about Penelope. GW hasn't let me log on for the past few days, and I've tried on a few dif't computers. But tonight = paydirt! The floor is down and will be grouted Thursday a.m. -- no pics on this computer. I like it a lot! I really miss being able to do laundry, though. I was planning on smoothcoating the walls / ceiling in there (as I did in our powder room) but on a whim called the plaster men who did the rest of our house. It'll cost less than $400 to do the laundry room so I nearly knocked them down, afraid they might leave. "DO IT!" I practically screamed at them. After the powder room project it cost me at least that much in hand therapy due to the radial tunnel that project induced, plus, and this is not a joke, I also developed arthritis in my Middle Finger. I mean, how perfect is that?!? Of course I love showing everyone my arthritic middle finger .... I am one classy lady! flyleft -- I was so happy to see your name! I know you are our mosaicist / tile expert, so thank you so much for taking a peek! So the story is this: I was clueless as to what was happening in our son, wondering if maybe a brain tumor or could this be a transition to Autism? Not a tumor and all the "experts" agreed (along with my gut) that it wasn't Autism. A volunteer who works with my son (he does hippotherapy, therapy on horseback, 2x a week and requires three volunteers and one therapist to make this possible) talked to her neurologist about my son (bless her), and her MD said "sounds like Landau Kleffner." So she and I got busy researching LK and by golly, it sounded like a great fit! I became obsessed with it and luckily the lead neurologist with whom we were then working (at the Children's Hospital in Denver) agreed. He said the only way to definitively dx LK is with a specialized EEG, so that's what he did. Well I'll tell you: lightning struck twice. Once for this to happen to my son and then once again because the week before my son's procedure the lead neurologist was at a conference with the lead researcher from Bologna who "discovered" and named Penelope. Our MD came back, did the operation, studied the results and knew immediately "it's not LK but it absolutely is Penelope." I'm telling you it's a miracle. I have since contacted every single medical, therapeutic, educational professional who has ever crossed my son's path and not a single one, not a single one has ever heard of ESES Penelope. Not even the super-duper pediatric neurological / developmental specialists. That is incredibly telling, and not about Penelope but how much we really need to be advocates for our children / our family members / ourselves. I told my support group I'm tired of being the smartest person in the room, and by that I mean that I'm tired of steering this ship. But of course that's what we have to do, because lightning doesn't always strike, and no one has a more vested interest than we. So it's either take to my bed with a bar of chocolate and suck my thumb, or tackle home projects and sally forth. I'm still on the fence which I'll choose ... but since our bedroom / bath are now the only unrenovated rooms in the house it's not as salutary hanging out in there. But when I can afford to do them I am looking forward to a long nap and bout with depression! Ha ha on me. Oh! And about ordering the tiles: the way I did it was with Lundy at Villa Lagoon, requesting all patterns (no solids) and bright colors. I think it's now possible to order the designs you want from her, so you can be assured of the patterns you'll get. When we received our initial shipment I liked them but I noticed there was no black and not as bright as I'd hoped. Lundy agreed: these tiles had been picked and packed down in Cuba, she'd not had a hand in it, so it wasn't her fault. She then sent me a bunch more tiles with lots of black and bright colors, so it turned out really well. And I believe now she has tile in stock in Alabama, as opposed to having to come from Cuba. That would make it easier to choose the colors / patterns, plus the wait time will be greatly reduced.