Thanks guys, lucy, i'm not just throwing away my meds all at once and i'm not doing it on a cut off my nose to spite my face attidude.I'm trying to save mine and my daughters life for as long as i can. We have between us had 5 horrible misdiagnosis by doctors that have left both of us disabled in differant ways and are on disability because of it. The reason i have CHF is because of diabetic meds i took for years.I had a stroke because of another medication prescribed. Had almost a 3month bad reaction to another drug even tho it was on my records not to give it to me.The doctor forgot to read that page for the reactions i had before.I did'nt have to pay for that hospitalization.Because they thought i'd sue. I was hospitalized for severe pain in the left back upper abdomen and was dehydrated,high temp,high wbc. Ihad sat at home in pain for 5 days because of my warrented distrust of doctors. Went to emergency room ,was admitted. However the ER record that showed a large kidney stone blocking the tube at the kidney was left in ER.Floor dr. could'nt come up with diagnosis, however bp had shot up So dr gives me lisenopril in hosp.Turns out as with a few other drugs i had a one in 10,000 reaction to drug. temp up, slight rash and my throat started slowly swelling.Nurses said i was having a panic attack and had lain on my pillow wrong and had a crick in neck.I lay like that over nite till i could'nt talk and was having trouble breathing. When things were finally under controll again My DD asked the dr. What about the kidney stone? Dr. said "what kidney stone? After an MRI, i was transferred to another hosp and emergency surgery done.The kidney dr. said he did'nt know how i stood the pain that long.Sometimes the pain is better than the cure.DD,s lawer wanted me to sue, said i had an ironclad case. I do not sue people because that could not make me whole and that is all i want. That is not all thats happened to me and my dd in the health care system nor anywhere near all my health problems. bu it's all i'll talk about for now anyway.Does that give you an indication of my feelings for health care. Yes i have a resonable dr now and no i would'nt tell you if he told me to forget medical care and go for the herbs.I'm not stupid either and i like this man. eric, my feelings do not reflect on you in any way. I don't understand this prolong life attitude. For what? The quality? I'm not afraid to die and i wont go looking for death either. Obviously i'm not afraid of pain either.If i take care of myself i'll probably have less of it. No i don't think dr.s care either except when it applys to them or their familys along with apollig and most of the populace. Eric again i'm not saying you are like this but this is how the med field is perceived by many. i also wish the med profession and herbalism could peacefully join together and in some countrys this is and has always been so. Just not here. but more importantly the patients and doctors and nurses need to peacefully join together. The populace needs to be educated in basic understanding of medicine and health and the med field needs to be educated on talking on a level playing field to patients. Patients are much more intelligent than most med field people think. They are in general just lazy. LOL! Eric, as far as i know you do talk to and understand your patients .but most dr,s don't. When standard billing practice is to charge the patients for all care and meds caused by doctors mistakes, What can you expect? The way i put researching, on google i was misunderstood. That is what i do. I enjoy it. but not to have to proove everything i say on line. Tomorrow i'll address the other thread. just glancing through i saw a link to an herb that might help me. Thanks much. I'll thankfully look into it. See you tomorrow. vickie

Hi John, I hope you are still following this thread. As a high blood pressure patient myself, my first concern is that you see your GP and get a basic check up and diagnosis, before you take anything at all. This is a subject too near and dear to my heart to pass by. During the check up, be sure they do a thyroid blood test, as both hyper and hypo thyroid, cause altered metabolism and high blood pressure. What you and I must avoid is a heart attack or stroke. If I have a stroke, I will be forced to watch my garden go to rack and ruin. :-( As it is now, I am as in control as possible, but I must be careful with all garden tasks, and take much longer to complete projects that in the past. IF I had gone in, and been diagnosed correctly years back, the solution would have been simple, and I could be running at normal speed. Not being able to ever again hike up a steep hill and enjoy the wildflowers is one of my biggest regrets. Back then, when things were only starting to go bad... I sounded exactly like you do in this first post. I know you fellows think going to the doctor is for girls...but this time you really need to just call and make an appointment. Not knowing does not make it go away. And not knowing but aware...causes stress...which causes long term damage to the immune system, and then the heart. With no diagnosis... and not knowing your current thyroid status, I will strongly advise against adding any so called safe supplements... the wrong guess and "bad to much worse" is the story. We get new people all the time being diagnosed either hyper or hypo... all because they added the wrong vitamins and herbs, thinking it was harmless and so basic and simple... it wouldn't hurt them. And I have to tell all of you... as a long term support person elsewhere... I am tired of picking up the damaged patients. Let's always insist on a diagnosis before a cure is prescribed. Don't take me wrong. I am a huge supporter of alternative healing, and my use of supplements and herbals was a HUGE part of my own "rare" success/ remission. But ya gotta' be aware of all the possible problems before hand. Be smart and careful. AFTER you have a diagnosis, THEN self education and a good, experienced NP will be of great value. We need to enjoy our golden years . Plus... have the opportunity to finally enjoy those tiny little plants we started, the ones that had to grow for years and years to be magnificent. ;) I'm starting to see this... and can not even start to tell you the joy ! Take care of yourself, so we can all enjoy your garden. :-D -Pam L- my rant for the year ;) Don't be skeeered... I'm really am nice, *lol*

I realize that this is a dated thread. However, the last comment leaves a negative impression about herbal medicines. I have hypertension and an inquisitive and scientific mind and checked out Eric's conclusion that hawthorn is mutagenic. The mutagenic testing in the cited research paper was done with quercetin at 98% minimum purity purchased from Sigma Chemical Co. This study did not look at the many glycosylated forms of quercetin that are very prevalent with hawthorn. There are many publications that explain that hawthorn extract has many medicinal components. One recent summary goes into great detail about hawthorn's 49 distinct flavonoid compounds 5 hydroxycinnamic acids; six sugars; 10 organic or phenolic acids; 26 terpenes; and 56 essential oil constituents. Nature's pharmacy is awe-inspiring! I researched mutagenic testing on the hawthorn extract that is prepared for dosing patients. Sadly, I cannot find published data on the Ames test for hawthorn extract by itself. There is an interesting study where hawthorn is used in combination with valerian and passion flower. This study concludes that there are no harmful effects caused by the herbal mixture. The paper states " this extract does not posess any genotoxic or mutagenicity effect: both the Ames test and the micronuclei test presented negative results". Also, searching Pubmed shows many publications where hawthorn is safe and effective over the long term. I have the impression that Eric _OH dismisses ethnobotanical knowledge is being out of date and primitive. I disagree. I think that many of our ancestors were wise healers and lived long and productive lives with the help of herbal medicines. A 2012 review in Phytochemistry explains that many Indian tribes in numerous First Nations used hawthorn. The Meskwaki, Blackfoot, Ojibwa, Potawatomi, Okanagon, Okanagan-Colville, Iroquois, and Cherokee all used the berries and/or various decoctions of the shoots, roots, and bark of different Crataegus species. The Cherokee and Thompson also used decoctions of the bark as a heart medicine. In traditional Chinese medicine (TCM), hawthorn fruits are primarily used to improve circulation, remove blood stasis, and treat indigestion, diarrhea, abdominal pain, hyperlipidemia, and hypertension. In Europe, the fruits, leaves, and flowers were traditionally used in the treatment of heart problems for their antispasmodic, cardiotonic, hypotensive, and antiatherosclerotic effects. In summary, it appears to me that hawthorn is a great choice for treating hypertension. I hope to share personal experience once I wean myself off of Metoprolol with the help of my physician.

"An extract of Xanthoceras sorbifolia Bunge, which comprises greater than 50wt% saponin. Extraction of the extract of Xanthoceras sorbifolia Bunge and its uses in manufacturing medicaments for treating urinary incontinence and frequent micturition caused by senile dementia or bladder degradation, puerile enuresis, mental retardation for children, cerebral aging, middle-aged dementia and senile dementia, Parkinson's syndrome." I need it for the middle age dementia, LOL! The flowers are edible too. Here is a link that might be useful: LInk to quote