Hi Beeone,

Open vase used to be popular around here, but with all of the dwarfing rootstocks now, I am seeing most new apple plants trained to a central leader. I have read studies from commercial orchards showing better yields with the central leader system.

Beeone:

My vote is for open vase form, hands down, certainly for semi-dwarf tree on rootstocks like M-7 that might otherwise become quite large. I started 30 years ago with a version of central leader, but have now converted all the trees to a vase form, if not a perfect vase form. I try to maintain the form with quite a bit of summer pruning, but still do some dormant pruning of large limbs as well.

I find the vase trees to be much easier to manage, and more productive. In addition to occasional spraying, I thin and bag my apples by hand from a 7 foot tripod ladder, tasks that are greatly simplified on a vase tree.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

I like the central leader better, the tree has more of a "natural" looks and I like the tree to go up.
My trees here up north are not getting this huge, so it works out perfect.
Also, less pruning is required.
Konrad

My apples are all pruned to open vase and they perform well. But I have seen new orchards in dwarf rootstocks pruned to a central leader. They are able to plant the trees with tighter spacings and still get good production.

Has anyone had problems with the vase form trees not being as structurally sound? I haven't seen older tree prunned in this way in real life, but it would seem like crotch splits would be more common.

Also, does anyone know of a good sight that shows what a well prunned central leader tree should look like when mature? I can find plenty of descriptions of young trees and plenty of verbal descriptions, but that still hasn't given me a good feel for what I'm trying to achieve if I choose this method.

Here's a link that might help with questions about central leader pruning. It's a Cornell site.

file:///C:/WINDOWS/Desktop/Training%20and%20Pruning%20Apple%20Trees.htm

Myself, I lean towards the vase; to my eye it's quite charming, and the parts are accessible. But my one pear is a central leader (space considerations) and it's happy; my apple started out as a central leader, ended up a mish-mash as I fumbled my way through it. Apricot same kind of thing- and a massive snow load on June 6 one year pruned 1/2 of that tree away, leaving me with a vase on a stalk!

Good luck!

:-)M

Marknmt, I think you must have cut and pasted the wrong thing above for that Cornell site?

I have a book on the kitchen gardens of Versailles with photos of mature apple trees pruned in the vase form - they are beautiful. On 20 foot centers it seems to me more suitable than central leader somehow.

Rosefolly:

It depends on the rootstock you are using, which determines the vigor, and the spacing of the trees. All of my trees are on M-7 or a variant thereof, with a few on MM-106 and a couple on MM-111. The trees are all a minimum of 13-14 feet apart, with some farther. If your trees are on dwarfing rootstocks and/or they are planted closer, central leader might be better for you.

While I recognize that most recently planted commercial orchards use the leader system, their trees are nearly all on dwarfing rootstocks, and utilize some external support. I'm not really trying to maximize tonnage per acre here. Ease of care, stand-alone ability, and the appearance of the trees also figure for me. In Beeone's case, with the trees on 20 ft. centers, and, presumably, semi-dwarfing rootstocks, I would definitely choose the vase shape.

And spreading limbs out does not mean they will be weaker and subject to breakage. On the contrary, limbs that are spread to a wider angle are much stronger than those with narrow crotch angles.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

I googled Cornell and pruning--is this the link you were referring to??? If not, it's also very informative!!

counties.cce.cornell.edu/Chemung/publications/pruning-apple-trees.pdf

Carla in Sac

Some of the orchard trees pruned to Central Leader also look good. I guess they have good people pruning them. As far as limbs breaking on vase shapes, even in my commercial cherry and apricot orchards it has been a rare occurance. You don't want too many scaffolds on trees carrying heavy fruits, peaches or nectarines. Choose three to four scaffolds and if the tree grows well the scaffolds will be strong. I have seen splits on occasion where all the scaffolds were all of the scaffold limbs were at the top of the trunk. But that was not common.

Thanks for all the responses and helpful advice. I forgot to mention that the trees I was thinking about when I wrote the question are on semi-dwarf rootstocks, though the places where I got them didn't say specify the variety of the rootstock. In this state, the Extension recommends against dwarfing (and even semi-dwarfing) rootstocks due to poor winter survival, but we've not had problems with the semi-dwarfs. When I think about size, the central leader makes sense on dwarfing rootstock because it still won't get that tall. For larger rootstocks, I can see height becoming a problem down the road unless you gradually convert the tree to more of a vase.

I'm now trying to figure out what I'll do with these trees in March as I should get going on establishing a form. The problem is that when I look at them and try to figure out what to do to go towards a central leader, I just can't picture it--branches aren't where I want them for the scaffolds. But when I think of pruning them into a vase, then it seems more flexible in selecting the branches to keep and it is much easier to picture what to do. I'm not looking for dense plantings for commercial production, just good, manageable apples. Will probably move towards summer pruning if it helps control excessive vigor, which the dormant pruning seems to stimulate even further.

I also have a number of apples which I grew from seed just to see what would happen, but I am learning to graft a little and will at least have grafted branches on these seedlings if they don't turn out well. I imagine they will range from full sized trees down to something much smaller when they mature as they already seem to have quite a bit of variability in their growth rates. They did pretty well last year after I transplanted them to a permanent location and really didn't show any sign of transplant shock. The were running 4-6 feet tall and I pruned them back then by 1/3 to 1/2. Then the deer started grazing on the leaves over the summer and last fall they cleaned their antlers on them, so these little trees will be starting over from about a foot high this next year. They are all fenced now. Pruning on them for this year will pretty much consist of trimming out what the deer demolished.

Much easier to cover a vase pruned tree with a bird net. For a home grower, the accessability of vase pruned trees trumps any other considerations in most cases.

Don, I think you may have misunderstood my concern. My concern with splits was not with side branches (which are attached more securely with crotches angles of greater than 35-45 degrees). My concern was the split between double leaders. I am assuming that there would at least be a double leader (one on one side of the vase, and another for the other side) on a vase shaped tree. Or, maybe the vase is formed by lower branches for one side plus the leader bent over to form the other side of the vase? I know that in the double leader situation, the crotch would not be strengthened by spreading to a wider angle.

Looking back at the link on Cornell I posted: it worked fine (but just on my desktop!) Sorry for the goof.

I think this is the correct link:

http://eap.mcgill.ca/CPTFP_7.htm#References

It's similar to but not the same as the link Carla found.

Here's a brief intro:

>>Training and Pruning Apple Trees
Cornell Cooperation Extension Publication / Info Bulletin #112
C. G. Forshey is a professor in the Department of Horticultural Sciences, New York State Agricultural Experiment Station, Geneva.
Contents
Introduction
Objectives of Training and Pruning
Physiology of Tree Growth
Principles of Training and Pruning the Young Apple Tree
The freestanding tree
Central-leader development
Selection and training of scaffold limbs
The supported tree
Other practices
Training and pruning the young tree
Pruning Bearing Trees
When to prune How to prune
Summer pruning
Mechanical pruning
Renovating old trees
Economics of Pruning
References I think it's probably true that Cornell has its own bias, the same as any source, and that you can find different approaches that are also valid. But there's a lot of information in this page.

Good luck,

M

Brandon:'

None of my trees have double leaders. They have no leaders at all. When I convert a leader tree to a vase, I remove the central leaders completely, then select lateral branches and spread them if necessary. Their numbers can vary from 4-8, but 6 is usually a pretty good compromise if you can get them well spaced around the trunk.

If you already have sizable double leaders on your tree, that is a different matter, and you will have to decide whether to keep them both or remove one before encouraging your laterals to grow in.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Have a look at this man's orchard.

Here is a link that might be useful: Dwarf Backyard Apple Orchard

Wow greenwitch makes me want to go out and pick up another 10 dwarf apple trees... I have only 3 dwarf apples atm all on M27 rootstock.

Marknmt,

Your link was very very helpful. It reaffirmed a lot of the stuff I thought I knew but felt a little unsure of and explained some things I hadn't even considered.

Don,

I guess it's a matter of semantics, but usually the upper most branch is referred to as the leader even if it is not dominant. But, from what you have described, I think I better understand the vase form you are talking about. I wasn't sure of the exact nature of this form and had even thought that you might be describing a system where the base of the vase originated from a single point at the top of a short trunk. I am now realizing that what you are describing is similar to a central leader system but with everything above the fist tier removed.

I also use vase-style pruning. See the link below for some good pictures of different pruning styles for apples (in French). If you click under the "Plantations" menu you can see pictures for other fruits. A "gobelet" is a vase in French. You can see there are two kinds of gobelets they show, one for a dwarf stock and one for a bigger stock.

Scott

Here is a link that might be useful: pruning forms for apples (in French)

Hi Brandon. Glad you could use the Cronell link.

But even though Cornell leans towards central leader pruning (at least in commercial applications) I would urge you to listen closely to Don. It may be just my own bias, but I would much rather look at a vase and I think they're significantly easier to work on too. Not to mention they lend themselves to being grafted to, which is good for me.

But whatever you do, you're going to get results and learn a lot.

Good luck,

M

One thing that no one has mentioned is that there are good reasons one form might be favored over another besides how it looks. In hot sunny climates you need some shade or your fruit may be 50% severe sunburn. In the north or northeast a more open tree form is better to aid disease control and spray penetration.

In sunny southwest Texas we have no disease and few bugs. Birds and sunburn are our major concerns. My soil is rather weak, that is vigor is low. I cann't get enough leaves on M26/Fuji to control sunburn even with a dense, not open, vase. So down here I need a thick canopy and more vigorous root.

Apples are grown in a lot of environments. One size doesn't fit all places.

The Fruitnut

These are all very interesting. The Cornell information explains a lot. The french site appears to break the pruning methods by rootstock/tree size, but I like the looks of the M106 rootstock type. Still, the others have some interesting features. The lattice look on dwarves is very attractive, but must be terrible work to maintain.

I will probably go with pruning towards a vase shape. Other than some fireblight, disease really isn't a problem, although we like to feed birds in the winter and have a lot of english sparrows, house finches, and gold finches. The house finches and sparrows seem to really enjoy digging into the apples. I haven't been able to convince any of the cats to take up residence in the trees, though. Maybe I can hang rubber mice in the trees? Ha! As a side note, these birds seem to enjoy eating the buds off my blue plum trees in the winter. The plum they like to roost in is nearly stripped clean in the spring and has only scattered blossoms, mostly on lower branches.

I always have some sunburn on the apples on the south side of the trees but it isn't really a problem and doesn't appear to do any more damage than to hurt the eye-appeal of the apple.

I was concerned that maybe there was some production or ease of care advantage with central leader systems that I just couldn't figure out.

When trying to maintain a smaller size to a tree that wants to grow, do you periodically take out one of the scaffolds or cut it back severely to spur newer growth lower down (then train one of the new shoots that come out as a replacement scaffold)? Otherwise, it seems that eventually you would end up pruning branches back to roughly the same place every year and have a tree that looks like it is on steroids--big, thick limbs, no smaller fruiting branches?