Hardy Japanese plums? Which ones? I think trying to grow japanese plums in Z4 is a fool's errand.

Probably only one Toka will do the trick if it actually blooms. Anyway, I certainly wouldn't try and deliberately limit fruit set by limiting pollinators. Its easy enough (physically if not psychologically) to thin fruit. European plum pollination is trickier in my experience. You would probably get good pollination even without 'Toka'

8 tree staggered 3 row planting is a good layout. You'll get good fruit set with all different trees. St Lawrence has 10 good/great asian varieties, just add two more. Upstate I am growing on a slope all but Percys Pembina Vermont. I am also trying a Russian Kuban Comet asian plum. Toka is the strongest grower. On the other side of the hill a beekeeper keeps 30 hives! After winter bees are really hungry and asian plums are first to bloom. The plum trees are covered in moving bees.

q3, you don't need to be concerned with overpollination, there is no such thing. Nearly all flowers get pollinated unless there is a pollination problem. You don't say what your spacing is so its hard to say if your row scheme is good or not. I would also look at Fedco for hardy plums, they have a very good collection. I'm also not sure why you are getting two of some varieties other than you want more quantity of them.

Scott

kokopelli5a, first of all, I am wondering if there may be some clarification necessary for my own behalf? Are Japanese and Asian types basically the same thing? As in two varying referances towards the same things? I get somewhat confused when researching the possible differances. It seems as thought the nuserys combine and/or mix the two referances on the same cultivars.

I feel the risks are worth the rewards as far as making this attempted Plum grouping. A delectably ripe juicy Plum is like my favorite fruit, and grocery outlets in these parts are far from cutting much, if any "mustard", what-so-ever. Farmer's market availability is non-existant (a possible niche for me). Most local small fruit growers (accidental in most cases I believe) don't have a clue, or are not willing to commit to what it takes to be succesfull. I, however, am ready to accept all failures, along with some hoped for successes. I believe that my research allows me to realize a certain degree of probable reward, with the selections that I am making.

I am assuming that in your z5 location, (state?) you are experiencing some bloom freeze out within your plums, judging from some of your comments. I somewhat envy your z5 situation, probably better than what my own may be regardless. I realize the bigger gamble that I most likely will be facing. Firstly, one must get through the winter at all without bud/branch dieback, before facing the challenges of early spring frosts during bloom. That is my reasons for the varietal mix, and the twin plantings as well. That, and even the possible/eventual loss of individual trees (atn: scottf). On those hit and miss years, hopefully some success will be attained.

I am still deliberating the 'Toka' option. Information leans towards it as a pollination best bet, yet it also describes that variety itself as to being a highly probable thinning neccesity in and of, itself (to obtain some size). If I was to hear more about it's eating qualities from experienced folks, that may help to persuade me one way or the other. Thanks to all, q3.

Hi q3
Like your moxy. We're doing the same type of thing. This will be our third year with Alderman, Superior, and Shiro plum trees. Can't help you with the pollination issue you're asking about, but want to put a plug in for the Shiro, we had a few plums off of it last year and the were absolutely fantastic. Much better than the Alderman or Superior (can't remember which of those two fruited). You need a bib to eat a Shiro. I just hope you are in a good enough location to get fruit. We planted our plum and peach trees high on a northeast facing hillside and got fruit on these young trees even though we had -24 two nights in a row.

Jake

P.S. Gardening is like gambling, only bet what you're willing to lose.

theAce, Yes, I am aware of St. Lawrence, and definitely have them included as a main part of my supply scource. Am also aware of Fedco, and have consulted there as well.

St. L. states that they use p. americana as it's rootstock. What can you tell me about it's attributes? Assuming that you have utilized this scource in the past yourself. Is there some dwarfing exhibited? This, for my spacing considerations. I have the room to do whatever it is that seems to be the best route to take. From 10' to 20' between spacings and/or rows. I am leaning towards between 10'-15', most likely in the 12' range. Mostly, there again, for pollination reasons, even though Fedco recommends 6'-8' in regards to that.

I will most likely have one large hive of bees on site. Not so much for this years plums, of course. Their mission this year will be one of establishment. Your own bee setup is most fortunate indeed. Kudo's for that!

What is the intention of your "just add two more" comment? Are you advising me to eliminate the 'Tokas' from my current list of considerations? And what can you tell all of us about the Russian Kuban Comet? Does this name by any chance allude towards the effects one must endure after having eaten a half dozen of these?-Ha! Just kidding, I hope you know. It's more likely the best darn thing ever savored on ones lips though? Seriously however, I'd be curious to know, and where did you abtain it?

Lastly, is there a definite reason as to why you are not growing the 'Vermont'? I heavily researched hardy z3/4 Yellow varieties, and think that I have mostly settled on this one for fruit size reasons. I hope to eventually have enuff excess to do the farmers market thing to some degree, so favor some size attributes as well. Another strong consideration of mine, that I am not fully sure of having settled on quite yet, is that of storage life of fruit. Any hardy varietal recommendations on that subject would be most welcomed as well. Thanks again, q3.

I bought my Kuban Comet from Raintree. I only bought it last year though so I can't say anything about it for a while. I bought Superior as a pollinator as I had heard good things about it. Unfortunately, Superior got eaten by a super-rabbit or something and I'll have to replace it.

berry-nut/Jake, greetings, and thanks for the support (moxy back at ya!)I did originaly persue 'Shiro' some, untill the z5 ratings kept popping up for it . I am striving to avoid frost/freeze related deficiencies on this project as best as possible. Through perseverance, I wound up settling on the 'Vermont' for my Yellow option mostly for apparent hardiness reasons. That, and a decent size factor as well. As I hope to do some farmers market buiz potentially, should things work out down the road. I personally spoke to a St Lawrence Nursery employee via phone who assured me of its qualities as to being one of his own personal faves.

What other Asian Plum varieties are you currently growing? Do they all seem to bloom mostly simultaneously? As far as for the pollination aspect. Or is there some staggered affect? Am trying to get a feel for how your own fertility factors are working for you.

The Winter temp extremes I am experiencing this season are absolute determining factors for me, at least for the Plums. Some repeated -30's actual temps, plus -50's windchills!!! If, or when I should say, that I attempt to tackle Peaches, my options are likely be even tougher to navigate. The Arbor Day Society zonal map shows me at z5-ya right!!! I think I'll be sticking to the original USDA specs as a minimal guideline. Congrats to you on your own Peach successes! Briefly, what Peach varieties are working best for ya?

I love your little closing gambling dity! Quite memorable!

Much continued success, Mike.

Q3- I bought the Russian Kuban Comet for hardiness and early ripening. I have not tried it yet but the flavor is reported v good. Raintree does not sell Kuban Comet this season.

My advice growing plums in harsh environment is plant many more than you need and plant different varieties, to make up for the fatalities and crop failures.

Well, I'm in the rocky mountain foothills, so spring freezes are a problem here compared to some nominally colder climes where you have a steady climb out of the deep freeze.

To me there are European plums, Japanese plums and American plums. I assume that American plums (I believe 'Toka' and 'Superior' hybrids of an American plum) are probably most reliable.

Euros would be next, then Japanese. I get sporadic fruiting out of 'Shiro' here. 'Stanley' seems to fruit reasonably reliably here if I have a decent pollinator (only recently added).

I echo Scott that there is no such thing as over pollinization, especially with plums. I'm all for experimentation, but add a couple of "sure thing" type plants in there. I suspect you have done that with 'Toka' and 'Superior'

Thanks to all for the recommendations. I really do appreciate the responses. Overall, your guidance has basically reafirmed my own ideas. I feel that I am on the right track here. I will be sticking with 'Toka' in my mix. I'll be placing my orders very soon.

Wish me luck. Will also be thinking of you all when I get that first opportunity to "Savor the Flavor" !!

Thanks again, q3-Mike

I'm from NW Iowa and was just looking at Japanese plums this very day, wondering if they're worth the effort. I can say that--before the rabbits killed them (we have a terrible rabbit infestation; they eat EVERYTHING that we don't completely cover in wire) I even got some peaches from 'Reliance' (on a south-facing slight slope) here in the land of cold, cold winds.

I think I'll join your effort (on a smaller scale; my yard is getting crowded despite the rabbits' best efforts) and plant three or four, myself. We can keep tabs. :-)

Good luck to you!

prairiegal, I too have the bunny blues, I should buy stock in a fencing company! Some hard lessons have been learned along the way in regards to this. But at least the fence method gives one hope. That, along with the plastic spiraled trunk protectant sleeves that are available, and highly recommended for other reasons as well. These silly creatures seem to prefer thorns even. Their winter favorites for me seem to be raspberries and barberries. So did those wascally wabbits do in your peach trees also? Bummer, ifso.

Plums are absolutely worth the effort, especially if you have a bit of a sweet tooth. But if the only option one has ever had is via retail grocery outlets, then a person might never really know.

If space is a problem for you, possibly consider some dwarf options. I am eyeballing/considering one I found in the Jung Catalogue called 'Black Ice', that also supposedly claims a "about 2 to 4 weeks earlier than other plums" ripening period. So am considering mixing in a few of them as well. They (Jung), also recommend 'Toka' as a pollinator.

I , too, am basically considered in the N.W. part of Iowa, with some North Central designation probable in there as well. So yes, some continued dialogue could well be beneficial for the both of us. Cold winds you say? Is yet another stay indoors if at all possible type of day, as I type this. Great "cataloguing" weather indeed! I will attempt to list my email address here on my "My Page", should you want to try me with that.

P.S. I am considering doing my own zone upgrade (or should I say downgrade!) to z3, as per the way this winter is going for us---wishing for better days to come.....q3-Mike

Hi q3,
I plan on noting the bloom time on our trees this year, didn't think to do it in the past. I've done it in the past on our berries. As far as peach trees we have Blushingstar, Contender, Madison, and Fingerlakes Super Hardy. We had peaches on all but the fingerlakes this past year (not sure why). We also have a Flat and Wonderful peach tree and 3 nectarine trees that are z5 and they're doing fine. Luckily our location doesn't have the temp swings that hit you. I lived in S.D. for some years and it could be 30 today and -20 the next.

Jake

Hello again berry-nut/Jake
Nice, overall things sound to be working out fairly well for you, all things considered. Keep up the good work. You give folks like myself hope, even though there's the one zone differential between us. I will clip your last entry for future peach varietal referance. So thanks for that.

This winter has been more like 10 degrees one day, then -30 the next-Sheesh! I have some protection for my fruit experiments in the form of an evergreen windbreak. My upcomming Plum planting will not have the benefit of this luxory near as much. But this past fall, I resorted to trialing an anti-desicant product called Wilt-Proof, to hopefully increase my chances. Are you, or has any one else used/familiar with this product? This winter should be a good indicator of its effectiveness for me. I'm hoping that my timing was good on that choice!

Best,q3-Mike

I'm growing Superior and Alderman here, but i really would like to chop back the Alderman and graft something else to the tree (the fruits just can't compare to the Superior)... I have wild plums near the house, so pollination shouldn't be an issue even if i got rid of the tree totally. The local bug population loves my plum trees (vs the cherries/peaches/apples/pears)...

I plan on adding Contender this spring... Reliance sucks for quality (my opinion! after eating 100+ of them this summer) vs other peaches i have growing (i don't know the variety, but they have fruited and the peaches were big and delicious). I also have a bunch of seedlings that are going on 4 years of age (fruit maybe this year?)...

franktank,
Thanks for the Plum comparison. Could you please be more detailed on your 'Alderman' opinion? It is one variety that I am considering just from catalogue hype. What specific types of issues do you have with it; taste, fruit quality, bearability, etc?

I have cosidered both 'Superior' and 'Pipestone' as alternatives, and might go with either of those instead, depending on hardiness factors. (I am a cold z4)

I, too, have wild plums in the "hood". Which can be both good and bad, as I understand it. They are well scattered throughout these parts. On one hand, there is the increased pollination help factor, but then additional bugs and pathogens to endure as the other side. Are the Plum Curcurlio's attempting to ravage things for you? But the wild stuff is there, and removing all of them is no way an option either. So is a tradeoff issue regardless, I recon.

Thanks for any additional timely input on the 'Alderman' part of this, as I need to get my orders in soon. Best of luck to you on your 2010 peach crop!

q3-Mike

Flavor... Alderman just tasted like a good store bought plum, where Superior tasted like something homegrown and magical. So good. They are really tough to beat. I'd rate them above my peaches i grow. I had about a dozen to eat and could have ate a lot more. Alderman seemed to have bigger fruit, but the growth of the tree is really upright vs the more ornamental look of the Superior.

Superior
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If my 3 unknown peach trees don't fruit this year, they are gone...and in their place will be 3 plums. Plums are hard to beat here, if you can keep the bugs away. They are hardy as can be, fruit young and are pretty trees, plus its tough to buy a good plum in the store. Peaches are just too picky in this climate, although worth trying if you are patient.

franktank,
OK, that pretty much does it for me. I will gravitate towards the Superior. Great couple of pictures-mighty savory looking. Thanks for those. I wanted to reach out and snatch that dandy looking Superior right out of your hand! But I guess I'll just have to grow my own...Better even than your peaches you say? OMG, I can't wait!

I've only skimmed this thread, so forgive me if it's been said already, but 'Toka' and 'Bubblegum' are the same thing. Someone renamed it after a candy in the hope that it would sell better.

I've heard that 'Toka' (or whatever its name is) is a good pollinator, but I've also heard that it's just assumed to be a good pollinator because it has so many flowers. Research at the University of Saskatchewan suggests that none of the hybrid plums are good pollinators. People who think they're getting good pollination from hybrid plums tend to have wild plums in their neighborhood that are actually doing the pollination. Here's a pdf about that:

Here is a link that might be useful: plums on the prairie

Wow! Great info here. We're moving up to Bemidji MN (Zone 3) this summer on 20 acres and will plant fruit. Already have the apple trees in, have ordered the grape vines and was wondering which plums and raspberries to plant. From your reviews I'm going to order Superiors and Toka. A friend of mine is an apiary and has placed bees on the property the last couple of years so I should benefit. I do have a rabbit problem...the first dozen apple trees were completely girdled and died. I now put tubes on them...any advice about other varieties of fruit trees, rhubarb, raspberries, strawberries and blueberries would be appreciated. I'm looking forward to spending my time on this project and in addition to getting good crops I'm also willing to experiment. Again, great info. Any additional info, suggestions or ideas would be interesting.