Sounds like a dangerous situation. Would your trainer be willing to come to your place and work with the horse? It sounds as if your experiences with her have been positive prior to this. Maybe if she came to your place and actually went to get him from the pasture, tacked him up and rode, handled him in the barn and so forth, she could uncover the problem.

It really sounds like you were off to a good start but to continue on your own could be dangerous and could also teach the horse some bad habits. I would try bringing the trainer to your house first.

Here is another point to consider; In my years as a horse trainer I have seen many unruly horses made manageable by very skilled trainers. That did not, however, make them suitable for novice riders. Those horses always needed the consant handling of the very skilled trainer to keep them 'tuned up'. I hope that is not the case for you - just something to keep in mind.

It is more work, but can you make separate paddocks? Don't put them together if you don't have to.
I would second the trainer coming over and working with horse, watching YOU work with the horse. Not doing "over the phone" advice. She needs to SEE the whole action, reaction, procedure.
Where is pony mare in this setup? She could be the problem, getting fought over. Take her out of the picture into a pen of her own for a bit. Horses should not be able to reach each other over the fence to fight.

I wondered at the biting while saddling. Is horse using a different saddle than he did at the trainers? What kind of technique does your husband use to girth up? I see horses get "cinchy" with to quick of girth tightening. Maybe getting pinched. Incorrect padding, not enough padding, poor fitting saddle, could be soring him up. Rider not sitting evenly ALL the time, quickly will make a horse sore backed. Riders save themselves pain, don't think of horse underneath.
Not a lot of folks really FIT a saddle to the horse. They pick saddle by color, seat size, trim. Not how the tree fits the horse, trees can vary widely. Takes time, hard work to find a saddle that really fits horse and rider well. Can be expensive.
Horse could also be sore, have pulled or strained a muscle in his back. Lots of reasons you are missing. This makes saddling hurt, so he bites the person who is hurting him!

Pay the trainer come over and see what is going on. Expert eye will see what you miss, worth the money before problems escalate.

Webought 2 geldings from same person about 13 years ago.One is almost black other is buckskin.The buckskin is scared to death of the other horse.He is dangerous.If he sees a rope laying he freaks,if he sees a bush near him he freaks,I think who ever had him before abused him he has never gotten over it.He is really intimidated by the darker horse.I heard thats how it works.

this is absolutetly a very very dangerous situation. no matter what you do, if you are a novice, you do not have enough horse savvy to get past this without professional help.

i agree, the trainer should come to you and watch how YOU handle things. it does you no good to have somebody come out and put this horse through his paces while you sit back and watch. it's the same principle as training a dog. everybody who has contact with the animal MUST use the same methods so as not to confuse it.

i don't mean to be blunt but it sounds to me like perhaps something started out small, i.e., he got his way with you in some fashion or another, and he has figured out that he can take advantage of your limited knowledge.

i have seen it happen also, as mentioned above, that an ill-fitting saddle can have the most dire consequences. imagine if you had to wear shoes that fit too tight for hours on end.

i hope you can work through this. it sounds like there are also some dominance issues going on. take heart, virtually every new horse owner goes through the trials and tribulations before they get the kinks worked out. just be very careful, injuries to both you and your animals can happen in the blink of an eye!

Geldings can get very protective of mares when a new male horse turns up even if they haven't been cut proud or shown any studdish behaviour. If the pony mare was in season, that could multiply the effect. Any chance of having her live right away; out of sight, sound and smell while this is sorted?

Gear has to be checked carefully, saddle, bit and bridle and methods of putting on. Everything. The previous owner probably brought his/ her own gear when this unobserved visit took place? Mayn't mean anything, but....

Angry horses are very dangerous animals. No place for anthropomorphism here. Been caught up in a serious stoush and have the scars still after 26 years. The subordinate horse was terrified but that didn't stop him grabbing me by mistake in an attempt at self-defence.

Please don't be afraid to question your trainer friend closely if you're uncertain about anything, including her experience with these types of issues. You safety is the bottom line, no?

Perhaps it is a territorial thing. The gelding you've had longer maybe is defending his territory. When you had them both at the trainers, perhaps it was more of a "neutral" ground for them. I do tend to agree that they need to work it out for themselves, who is going to be the "alpha" horse, but not to the point that he can't get to the water at all.

It's a tough situation, but hang in there. Hopefully it will work out. If not, maybe you should sell the new horse and try another one, perhaps a mare? But don't give up on horses altogether.

Good luck!

Jen

Is the mare in with the geldings. If so move her, the first gelding is protecting the mare and 3 horses is a bad situation anyway One always gets picked on. Your first gelding is learning bad habbits from the new horse. And your right he's trying to do it to you. I've been in the same situation so I know exactly what your talking about. I had one that started bitting and I would just grab his head and shake it around till he got tired of it and eventually he stopped it. Twisting there lip or ear or slapping them does no good then they just become sneaky and bite you in the butt when your cleaning there feet.lol

When we had 1 mare and several geldings, I seperated them so there was never more than one gelding with her at a time.

The new horse is on sensory overload - or ,flight mode because he is trying to survive. They need to be seperated or you need to remove either the aggressor or the omega. I am never one to "let them work it out" simply because I only have so much money and don't want unexpected vet bills. Worse, I don't want a horse that is too freaked out to function, as is your case. Horses don't inherently get along - in the wild some are run off completely and refused entry into a band. It's cruel and dangerous to force things like this - your trainer shouldn't advise that - IMHO.

Good luck.

I also would suspect that your original gelding is protecting his mare. I moved my gelding and mare to a friend's to reseed my fields one year. My other friend had a mare (her mare was at my place several years back). Although my gelding was cut when young, he still considered my mare his. He ran the fence line pretty much continuously for weeks to keep the gelding in the nieghbor's field from coming near the fence and "his" mare(s). They got things worked out, but only because they were in separate fields with a fence in between so they couldn't hurt each other. Without the fence, someone's horse would definitely have been injured. And I can promise you, I would not have even thought about riding my gelding over there. He was way too on edge from protecting his herd. I am wondering how long your mare and original gelding had been together before you bought this new horse onto your property? And I also agree that having them together on neutral ground may have made a little bit of difference too. Didn't with mine, but maybe it did with yours.

I agree with everyone else. Pay ther trainer to come out and watch what is going on. She doesn't need to be working the horse, she needs to be observing the whole thing so she can give you an idea of what is causing the behaviors. It may be something that can be fixed, but it might not be. Depends on what the underlying problem is.

First the disclaimer. Horses are a touchy subject because there are so many people with different levels of experience, and different methods, and feelings get hurt easy.

Anyway. Horses learn to be bad very easy. They also learn to be good, but need a good person to teach them. Horses that come from a trainer can be good, and then when with their owners who don't know as much, they start to be bad. Horses are always being taught something, everyday, but it is difficult to realize what you (ourselves) are teaching them.

Horses are herd animals and want to be with their buddies more than anything. Even if they fight. As to the fighting, separating them before they sort things out is not generally a good idea. Eventually, one of the horses will give in and say "uncle" and then they won't fight so much. Of course, in the couple minutes to an hour that may take, one of the horses could get seriously wounded, but that is the risk you take.

Sometimes, there are reasons to keep fighting, like everyday the food shows up and the weaker one doesn't get out of the way fast enough. Having a pen that is too small is a problem, because the weaker one needs to get out of the way. So if you keep having problems, I bet your pen is too small. And when you feed, you need to grab the boss first and tie him until he's not so hungry and cranky. Also, you need to feed hay in two locations about 20 feet apart.

A horse that bites doesn't know that the person is the boss. There are different ways to show a horse who is boss (and this is where horse people really fight with each other). My suggestion is an everyday approach, keeping in mind that every day horses are learning from you, good or bad. Your interaction must require him to submit to you. He can't point is butt to you, he can't feed without you telling him it is ok. He can't walk in your space. And he certainly can't bite you. If he is doing those bad things, then don't feed him that moment, don't let him stand still that moment. Work him by moving him out from you. In a round pen, you would work him around and around. You on ground, you with whip, you motioning for him to get moving. But be very quick to recognize good behavior and instantly reward it. In a round pen, the reward is letting him stop, letting him come nicely to you. If not working in a round pen, if not using a whip to move him, at least get a hold of him and not let him eat until he stands nice for you. Then say "ok" and let him eat. Every day. Every darn day.

Take this approach to everything you do with the horse. If the horse is being bad, don't tolerate it. Is the goal to ride the horse or is it to have a good horse? If the horse is being bad while saddling, address that. Don't just skip over that part to get to the riding. Also, look for things that might be pinching him, because it might be your fault if the saddle doesn't fit.

In my view, hitting a horse is a waste of time. Not saying you are hitting, but just wanted to say. Instead, you have to outlast him. Go slow, and praise the good behavior. When bad behavior happens, do it again, do it again, do it again, when good behavior happens praise him. Do what again and again? Do whatever it is that is causing the bad behavior. Take saddle off and put it back on, take saddle off and put it back on, when he doesn't bite then praise him and go onto the next step.

Get the picture of the tediousness of the battle day in and day out? That's what I mean by outlasting. The mistake, in my mind, is when people say "oh, forget it, let's just get onto the next step". That's when the horse wins and gets away with it.

By the way, there are no bad horses. Just bad teachers. Every person who interacts with the horse is a teacher. You, your husband, your kids, you are all teachers. What are you teaching the horse every day?

If 3 horses, feed in 3 locations, if 4 then 4 locations, etc, each location 20 feet apart from the other. Some people even feed in 1 more location than there are horses, so a pile is always free.

Jeffrey, I agree with what you are saying. Some of us just don't want to take the chance of one of our horses (or a person) getting injured while they settle their herd differences. I personally would not be willing to do that with my horses. By the same token some of us may not want to devote that much time to training/retraining. I guess it amounts to a question of how badly you want to keep all of the horses. Priorities are sometimes a killer!

Thanks to everyone!

My trainer has been on vacation for the holiday, so now she's back, I'll try to get a hold of her. She will come out no problem (for free) and help me.

The first gelding (boss) and the pony are together and the new gelding is seperated. There is a fence in between the 2 and the 1. So they can see each other, etc but not get at each other. My boss gelding still chases him thru the fence, tho. (Not literally THROUGH the fence, you know what I mean).

I have the 3 on about 2 acres total. It's almost divided in half by the fence. There is plenty of grass, trees, etc-- it's not a dry lot.

My trainer says that if they don't want to do something, make it hard. Keep making it hard until they submit. Then make it easy. Don't want to let me on the saddle? Then we're turning in circles until you stand still. Don't want to walk home? Then we lope and lope away from home until you're so darn tired. So that's how we've been approaching things this far. Occassionally we do spank, but my trainer says don't pick. Spank one time, a really good one, and be done. Make it count.

We have had the pony and first gelding since about April, so not a very long time.

I hope that answers everyones questions. I will talk to my trainer and let you know what happens.

Thanks!!

The sad fact is that some horses simply hate each other. There is no reason for it, they simply never, ever learn to get along.

When we got Ned, the other gelding at the barn HATED him, and attacked him viscously when every he got the chance. Ned was a wreck until that gelding went away. My husband was squeezed against a fence, I was bitten, fences were smashed, other horses got kicked, the stalls were smashed and holes got put in the barn walls.

Sometimes, we have to make choices based on human safety. Is this working out, or is a small weak human going to get hurt or killed because these horses are acting on instinct? I'm less than five and half feet tall, I'm not going to tolerate any animal who is a threat to my safety. I'll agonize over it, but the fact is that I'm not going to leave people in danger.

It's hard sometimes to do the right thing, and admit that we've made a terrible mistake by shaking up herd dynamics.

We got rid of the horse who was most aggressive and least trained. We kept our Nedders, who's since settled in and been a perfect gentleman. He still gets beat up by the mares, but he's not a nervous wreck any more, he's my rock.

For some reason, he doesn't care that the mares beat on him. (Masochist!) He's perfectly content as long as he's with them.

Remember, YOU are the one up on that horse, no matter WHAT your trainer says, it's not their rump in the saddle! If you can't trust the horse, get rid of it. There are hundreds of thousands of horses out there: it costs just as much to take care of a good one as it does to take care of a bad one.

IMO: Life is too short to ride rough stock horses, no matter what they cost or how pretty they are!

Best wishes to you.