"wait, wait...are you saying I can put six HUNDRED plants in a 10x10 plot???" Those yields are based upon a degree of soil conditioning that is very labor-intensive... and while I have read of such recommendations, I have yet to see photos, or hear first-hand observations, proving that they would work for most gardeners. All of the digging aside, in my area, I'd be flirting with disaster if I crowded my beans that closely. Personally, I wouldn't recommend it. Most bush beans - when healthy & mature - have a footprint of 1/2 - 1 sq. ft. or larger. 100 plants (1 per sq. ft.) should be a safe bet; I've successfully used 6" between plants w/ 2-foot spacing between rows, which is close to the same thing. You might be able to get away with 2-3 plants per sq. ft. for the more compact varieties. Crowding more closely than that may work in the warm dry climate of California; but in the cooler, wetter Northern climes, it could lead to severe disease problems. I'm not saying that it wouldn't work... just that I wouldn't put all my eggs in that one basket, unless/until small-scale trials proved it to be successful. In a post above, I had mentioned "seed efficiency". To put that in perspective, large kidney beans are somewhere in the neighborhood of 40-60 seeds per ounce. If planted at the recommended bio-intensive density of 600+ for a 10' X 10' plot, you would need between 10-16 ounces of seed to plant... so you would need to buy (or save from the previous season) a pound of seed. Assuming you harvest 24 pounds of dry seed (which is, keep in mind, the best case scenario), it would represent a return of between 24/1 & 38/1, depending upon seed size. Most gardeners would get much less than that, since the maximum is for experienced gardeners, on well amended soil. In contrast, my observations are that large-seeded bush beans, given the 6" plant/2' row spacing I mentioned above, are easily capable of a seed increase of between 50/1 - 100/1. Small-seeded types will tend to yield about the same weight/plant, but at an even higher ratio of increase, well over 100/1... so in terms of cost effectiveness (if purchasing seed) small is often better. Pole beans can do better still; the "Striped Cornfield" I grew this year (@45 seeds/oz.) produced a return of over 500/1! My results were obtained by mechanical tilling, with leaves & mulch turned under each season. Using these numbers, the same kidney beans - if grown in 5 rows in the same 10' X 10' plot - would be 100 plants. This would produce between 5 & 10 pounds of seed minimum... with only 2 ounces of seed required for planting, the average in a packet of beans. Also, at this spacing, the plants have sufficient air flow through the foliage to minimize the chances of disease during prolonged periods of rainfall. Having tested that theory in some very bad years recently (such as in 2008) I consider these yields to be realistically attainable, year after year. I don't doubt that my spacings could be improved upon; it is something that I often experiment with. Most likely, there is a happy medium somewhere between row spacing & high-density plantings which will produce the best yield, for a given area, with the littlest possible seed. That "happy medium" should take into account the expected annual variations in climate, since what works well one year, might not work the next. With soybeans, I have had some success with closely-spaced double rows, with standard row spacing between the pairs... so that may work for bush beans as well. Given the observations I have made on over 100 bean varieties over the years, I expect the optimal spacing will vary widely, depending upon variety, climate, and soil fertility. So there is really no "one correct answer" for bean spacing... just starting points for personal experimentation. Keep in mind, John Jeavons' bio-intensive recommendations mentioned above pertain to bush beans only. Pole beans are not suitable for wide bed planting, due to shading. However, you can have the best of both worlds using pole beans. Planted in a single row on the North side of the bed (where they would not shade shorter crops), they take up a relatively small footprint. A high-yielding pole variety could give you 3-4 pounds of dry seed from one row in that same 10' X 10' bed. You could use the majority of the bed(s) for other things, and still get a good crop of beans. My apologies for all of the long (and probably dry) posts, but as an amateur researcher, I just wanted to share some "bean science". Just wish this was on the Bean Forum.

It occurs to me that this discussion probably should be on the trellis thread, but since the OP did mention support... ..."With plastic I would have to untangle the vines from the plastic in order to leave the plastic in place... ...If I understand correctly, you tried that and it took too much time." Although I do not leave my trellises up from year to year, I did try to recycle the twine once, as well as to leave all vines in the garden to be tilled under. If the vines were left on over Winter, they were dry & brittle by the time I removed them in Spring. I would cut the bottom of the vertical string, cut the base of the vine, and cut any tops that had grown beyond the trellis. Most of the time, I could then pull from the top down, and the vines would slide off. It took practice, and some varieties were more difficult to remove than others. But in the end, with the wife & I both removing the vines, it took several days. The weather is fickle here, and I don't usually get the luxury of that much time; so I decided that my time was worth more than the cost of the twine. I've actually been wanting to change my trellis system, to reduce the time I spend each year erecting them. I have thought about 5' tall concrete remesh, cut into 5' & 10' lengths & attached to the poles with zip ties. The different lengths would be combined as needed depending upon trellis length. I already use zip ties for attaching the bottom support, so I know they hold up pretty well. SSE uses basically the same system on their farm, where they use thousands of feet of trellis. But there are two drawbacks. The first is that to get the lengths of remesh I need, I would need to cut my own from the 150' rolls. Sounds easier than it really is. The wire is fairly heavy gauge, and after you cut it, you then need to bend it straight... which is also difficult & time consuming. I have 2 rolls now, and might get this done eventually... but it will be a lot of hard work to turn those rolls into flat panels. The other problem with using steel for the trellises (whether remesh, fencing, or cattle panels) is the storage issue. Because of my crop rotation, the trellises will be in different places each year & must be removed before Spring for tilling. As it is, after Spring cleaning, I have to make piles of poles & rebar rod off to the side of the garden. That much remesh (or steel fencing), when stacked off to the side, would be a real eyesore. My main garden is on a friend's property, so that is out of the question. "No one has mentioned trellis netting & it works well and lasts several years, though I am not doing long runs as some are." I considered it in the past, but found it cost prohibitive. Also, although it might last several years, you have to clean all of the debris out of it after the first year in order to reuse it. While that might work for small runs, it would be nearly impossible to clean off 100' or more in a reasonable amount of time. Oh, and on the topic of cleaning trellis material, there is an easy way to clean old vines from wire fencing. Just roll up the fence - vines & all - when everything has dried, and (in a safe place) set fire to it. Presto! no more vines. Cool, unroll, and reuse.

Thanks Gary. What do you mean by headless plants? How did they get headless? Last year we had a drought, but I watered every other day. But....the high temps really wrecked my beans. I think I got just a couple handfulls out of a bunch of vines. The cucs and the tomatoes did great though. This year, my pole kentucky blue beans started producing a couple weeks ago. But my Blue lake barely have any blossoms. I hope they're just late. I think another mistake I made was over-planting. I'm always afraid some won't sprout.......then they all do, and I don't have the heart to thin them. But I think it robs them to have too many. Also, some of them didn't vine well and are creating a shelter at the bottom of the trellises for mice. :( Next year, I'll try to be strong, and not over-plant. :) Thanks again.

I make them. And have learned a few tricks. I soak and cook first, but i like a crunchy exterior with just a bit of soft meal inside. Not completely dried. (i make them to eat right away or within 24hrs in the fridge) ...they never last more than right away unless i hide some for a garnish. You are reading what i have read. I experimented with many versions using up a full dried bag. Chickpeas/garbanzos. I was just reading about other beans last night. I'm in a remote location and after having 'chickpeas' on the grocery list for 3 weeks it has become a running joke. But just traveled to a nearby village today that had cans, whoot-whoot!. Just cans, boo. But on sale and 4 for 5bucks. I prefer to soak my own. The closest dried bean here is something called a 'raw yellow pea'. Looks like tiny garbanzos and round. Cooked them last night for dinner. Not really a split pea flavor. Longer cooking time. Planning on baking them tonight. Along with my can of chickpeas. Other beans i have tried were not at all like described in the recipes. Not sure if 'hippies' will just consume anything, lol. I find that type of thing in blogs all the time. Freeze drying are the crispy overpriced packaged snack you see in stores, and i know you know that. Freeze drying is not a home event. Thanks for bring this up. We shall brain-storm this. My favorite method so far...cooked chick peas, tender. Drain and dry. Important to dry on a kitchen towel and lay out for an hour or so....(right now mine are on a sheet pan above my wood stove on a drying shelf where i proof bread. Toasting in the oven dry, then tossing with a scant amount of good oil, then tossing in spice. I also like using avocado oil, tossing before roasting with spice. Avocado oil has a high heat tolerance. I'm still fussing and experimenting. I traveled, felling a bit silly bringing dried bags of beans from NYC, but surprised to not find any here locally. The first batch for a party were such a hit i kept roasting during the festivities. Bringing out more from the oven. Used up all my fridged cooked chickpeas. I'm still at a toss-up with using a good flavorful oil and spice before roasting. Heat will destroy some of the good qualities in some oils, but the spices i often use like some toasty heat... I do think it involves playing around with it. Small batches trying different methods.