It all depends on how much Pilgrim there is in them... and what the other part is. Last year I had a Pilgrim female and a mutt gander... but the auto-sexing factor still produced grey females and white males.

Are you willing to eat any geese that grow up aggressive? If not, you might be better to wait until you can get purebred Pilgrims -- they needn't be show stock to have the Pilgrim gentleness. Just my two cents worth(CAD).

I don't have much experience with geese other than hunting the migratory ones. But IMHO I think Maggie's voice of experience rings the loudest to me. You don't know for sure what the off strain was that your local breeder has in her flock. They could be only a quarter Pilgrim, or they could be 75% Pilgrim. If you are wanting that variety because of thier normal demeanor, than that is what you ought to look for. No sense buying geese that turn out to be meaner than a snake, especially if you don't like foie gras!

I hear you.

The parents both look and act like traditional pilgrims, and the disposition of the other white females has apparently been very gentle and pilgrimlike. So, my sense is that there is a majority pilgrim presence. I believe that worst case scenario is that both parents are part pilgrim and part something else.

But you're right, it's hard to say, and gentleness is a major attraction to the breed.

--Jonathan

P.S. I do like fois gras! Though, the ethics of creating it are pretty dodgy.

I agree with you on that! I did see where one Chicago chef has come up with a recipe for Faux Grois! It calls for you to use about a pound of butter! I guarantee that will slide right down. The food critics say that it is hard to distinguish from the real thing.

Kevin

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but I recommend that you forget about geese, at least for now.

First, you're wise to think twice about this woman and the transaction. She's taking you for a ride. No one can sex geese at day old or at any other time by disposition. The autosexing gene can become complicated, like any other, when you're dealing with crosses, but if anything, it tends to breed true more often than not. Many strains of Embdens, and other white breeds, can be sexed by down color at day old, even if they grow up to have both sexes pure white. There are people trying to work on white Toulouse, who are having major problems with the colors reverting to autosexing, rather than getting females that are white, and they're TRYING to do it.

Second, you need to learn more, both to prevent getting taken by people like this woman, and to help make your expectations a bit more realistic. You're looking for a veterinarian to confirm sex. Why would you be willing to pay for his or her services, yet not for better quality birds, which should end up costing much less than even the office visit? Incidentally, there is no such thing as show quality day old goslings, but that's an entirely different subject. You also need to know that there are only two ways to sex day old goslings. Vent sexing, which takes a lot of practice. They don't teach it in any vet schools, and there are very few veterinarians who have the practical experience sexing day olds to even know where to begin. I could be wrong, but there are none in MA who would feel comfortable doing it, not proficiently enough to dare charge you for accurately performing that service. If you have found one, I'd love to know who it is. The second way to sex day old goslings could be by a blood test. Any avian veterinarian could collect the sample and submit it to the lab for you, but again, if you're willing to pay for that, why not just get quality birds from an experienced breeder who knows how to vent sex?

Finally, your expectations about the temperaments of the females verses the males is bound to lead you into trouble. If you believe that females are less agressive, IMO you're likely to also make mistakes in judgement with regard to their other behaviors, raise them improperly (as "pets"), and end up creating the monsters which you're trying to avoid, regardless of what sex you have. It is true that Pilgrims, to make a broad generalization, tend to be a calm, nonagressive breed. But the same is true for all of the other European derived breeds: true Toulouse, Romans, American buffs, Poms, etc. It is also true that Pilgrims can be agressive under some circumstances. That's not to say that the two Asian breeds are always agressive either. You and your children could walk into my pen of twenty some odd Africans, now or at any time, and unless you get to within a few feet of a setting female, you'd never have a single problem, from either sex. It has nothing to do with my strain being less agressive than any other. It's merely due to a fairly good understanding of their behaviors, and raising them appropriately.

Hi Patrick,

I do appreciate your input, both on this and many other threads.

There are some details being lost in the commnication here.

The breeder has been very upfront with me about this. She stated outright that that her stock isn't pure pilgrim, and advised me to pass if I was planning on breeding or showing them. She thought that they might serve my needs only because the rest of the flock's disposition was right.

She knows that trying to figure out sex by disposition isn't reliable, so she's asking her friend and goose mentor, who happens to be an avian vet, to try to help her get a clearer idea of their sex. She isn't charging me for this service. I'll pay $10 per gosling, and I could probably talk her down, though I wouldn't.

It is true that I have much to learn about geese. So far, all of my information comes from what I've read, and I have no delusions that this is fully preparing me. Owning and observing them will teach me far more. But I have to start somewhere.

Regarding other sources, the only other local source I've found for pilgrims only wants to sell breeding pairs for $150, which seems in a different league than I want. He's hooked into the show goose competition circuit, which currently doesn't interest me. If you know of others close to central MA, please let me know.

--Jonathan

Funny how more complete information changes things.
Still, 'She thinks they are female based on their disposition.', clearly indicates someone who does not know what they are doing (or is intentionally misleading). Now that you know better, just be prepared to ask how her avian veterinarian friend has sexed the birds. If it wasn't either of the two methods I explained earlier, and she comes back with a confirmation, something is fishy.

I got that they were possibly not pure, which is why I went into the explanation about autosexing breeding true more often than not. I should have mentioned that those working on the white Toulouse have been doing so with the introduction of other white breeds. They're trying for pure white, yet the autosexing keeps showing up and they can't get rid of it. An example of how unlikely it is that these mixed, but mostly pure Pilgrims would throw females that are white.

FYI, even at $10, you're paying top dollar for a mixed breed goose. Just try and sell them when they mature. You'll be lucky to be able to give them away.

I wish that I had a better source for you. There's no one in New England whom I know who is consistently breeding Pilgrims of any quality. It's just a matter of finding someone like your backyard breeder friend. You could try Sunday, June 10 at the Holliston Sportsmans Club. The Boston Poultry Exposition is having their annual spring swap. You might find something, or at least some leads. Try also the person in the link. I don't think that she has Pilgrims, but she might know who does.

Re: the 'show goose competition circuit'. There are very few people nationwide who are breeding show quality Pilgrims which consistently take top honors. They're just not a popular, improved exhibition breed. You'll find plenty of Africans, Toulouse and Chinas, maybe an occasional Embden or Sebastopol. While I have paid that for a single show type bird, $150 for even a top quality pair of Pilgrims (or as 'top quality' as a Pilgrim can be), is quite high.

I'd be very interested to hear the results and the methods used by this breeder's veterinarian, in sexing these birds.

Here is a link that might be useful: Golden Egg Farm

Hi Patrick,

Thanks again.

In fact, Kate at Golden Egg Farm was my source of white indian runner duck eggs (blueish eggs, white ducks), fifteen which are currently incubating in my son's nursery school classroom. She seems like a delight, but didn't have a Pilgrim breeder to recommend.

I'll talk to my pilgrim lady tonight and get the full scoop. It's helpful to know about the different sexing methods.

Regarding the swap, how would I know at such an event whether the goslings any better than what I'm currently looking at? It sounds like a fun time.

--Jonathan

Jonathan, you did not really answer my question about your willingness to cull if the geese grow up aggressive. If your children are young, you really need to address this issue before getting any geese. I have never yet seen an aggressive Pilgrim, but there are never any guarantees.

Patrick is correct that adult geese can be very hard to sell. On the other hand, they do make a wonderful Thanksgiving or Christmas dinner. Please do your kids a favour and think ahead. If culling is out of the question, you should consider waiting until the children are older. A really aggressive goose can do a lot of damage with its bill and wings... I would never let young children visit mine on their own, even though I am certain they would not be attacked. "Certain" is not good enough for me where kids are concerned.

Hi Maggie,

We would not keep an agressive goose. Though I personally wouldn't swing the ax, I have a friend who would help me out.

My kids are too young to be left alone in the bathtub, let alone with an agressive goose.

--Jonathan

Hi Jonathan,
you might want to contact Patrick at the link below. He is in Pembroke MA, and may know someone out near you who breeds pilgrims. I had a pair on order but tragically a bad storm knocked out the electricity and the goslings that were incubating did not hatch.

Also there is an auction in Topsfield, MA in the fall that sells poultry, part of the proceeds benefit Essex Aggi school. I saw quite a few geese there and they went for around $35 a pair (full size Poms). That would be a place you could consider using if one of your birds were aggressive, some folks like them for guard dogs/geese.

-Sheila

Here is a link that might be useful: West Elm Farm

Hi Sheila,

Thanks very much! I have already been in touch with Patrick already, and he's sold out for the season. He didn't have other leads.

--Jonathan

"Regarding the swap, how would I know at such an event whether the goslings any better than what I'm currently looking at? "

Good question. The short answer is, you really don't. But you're currently getting some questionable information, to be tactful, blatently false or even deceitful, to be blunt. You might come across another such individual, but you might also find someone who is helpful, honest and knowledgeable. I'm sure that Kate would be happy to help. So would I, if I end up going. As to what is better, well what do you mean? Purebred? At that age you're taking the breeder's word. Type or breed characteristics (quality)? That's not an issue for you, so it doesn't matter. Health? You're taking chances no matter what. I'd rather take the word of someone who gives me good information that I know is true, on other subjects, and trust when they tell me that the birds are healthy, than one who gives me info that has been contradicted from other sources, even if their health statements include a supposed vet check. Of course if a health certificate were produced, that's a little more reliable, but a bird or any animal which appears healthy on the day when seen by the vet, can still be incubating anything that may show up days or even weeks later, in some cases.

Maggie, you're approaching it the wrong way. Agressive geese almost always are created, by people who misunderstand their behaviors and end up raising them improperly, allowing the birds to imprint on humans and/or loose their natural, healthy, respectful fear. Very few serious, knowledgeable breeders ever have problems with agressive geese. It's just not allowed to happen. We don't have time or energy every day to put up with that nonsense, delaying our chores and interrupting our routine, or worrying about getting bitten or flogged when stepping into every pen. The exceptions are hens or their protective mates, when they're setting or brooding young, but then only when they're approached to within extremely close distances, 4 to 5 feet or so. If you have a pen that is so small that it can't allow you to keep that much distance between you and the birds, then it's too small to be keeping them in, in the first place. Also, you misunderstand the differences between kill and cull. The words sound similar, but the meaning may be anything but. When used improperly as you have done, you create even more misunderstanding and confusion, and it's the last thing that we need more of, when we're discussing geese.

Re: the Topsfield auction. I've always understood that it was to benefit the FFA. Maybe it's the Essex Aggie chapter, but I didn't think that it benefited the school itself. Prices at that auction are often not a good indicator of the average "going price" of stock, for two reasons. One, it benefits FFA. People tend to bid higher than the birds are worth, as a donation to help FFA. Second, and the primary reason, is the location. Essex County used to be a true agricultural area. Now there is very, very little real agriculture left. It's basically a rural suburb of Boston,
and few of the people who live there now have any background or true experience with real agriculture. They don't know what the birds are really worth, or even where to begin to look for them anywhere else. It's a handy, and often the only source, for most of those people who want to buy poultry. A bird may only be worth 5 or 10 dollars, but there's a lot of disposable income amoung the residents of that area, so paying 25 or 50 bucks for a bird that's worth a fraction, is no big deal. Often they even see it as a bargain, the only animal purchase they've ever made to which they can compare is a horse or a purebred dog, for many hundreds or even thousands of dollars.

QUOTE: "Maggie, you're approaching it the wrong way. Agressive geese almost always are created, by people who misunderstand their behaviors and end up raising them improperly, allowing the birds to imprint on humans and/or loose their natural, healthy, respectful fear. Very few serious, knowledgeable breeders ever have problems with agressive geese. It's just not allowed to happen. We don't have time or energy every day to put up with that nonsense, delaying our chores and interrupting our routine, or worrying about getting bitten or flogged when stepping into every pen. The exceptions are hens or their protective mates, when they're setting or brooding young, but then only when they're approached to within extremely close distances, 4 to 5 feet or so. If you have a pen that is so small that it can't allow you to keep that much distance between you and the birds, then it's too small to be keeping them in, in the first place."

Patrick, I agree that improper handling is the major cause of goose aggression. When people new to geese get their first goslings, there is the cuteness factor to contend with. Add to this that such goslings rarely have an adult goose to act as a surrogate parent and the chances are pretty good that the goslings will imprint on the humans. Jonathan has already stated that his geese are to be lawnmowers and pets. That is why I stressed that he needs to think again in case the geese grow up aggressive. It happened to me with one of my first three goslings. I had a lonely only female Pilgrim hatched under a broody hen and bought two other goslings, a Buff and a mutt, to keep her company. They were all that was available on short notice. The mutt turned out to be a gander and with the onset of breeding season became extremely aggressive. The other two were females and did not become aggressive. I learned from my mistake and now that I have adult geese to raise goslings, I do not baby them. My current gander is a gentle as the geese.

QUOTE: "Also, you misunderstand the differences between kill and cull. The words sound similar, but the meaning may be anything but. When used improperly as you have done, you create even more misunderstanding and confusion, and it's the last thing that we need more of, when we're discussing geese."

Patrick, I do understand the difference between kill and cull. Culling means removing from the flock or herd. Often, but not always, the cull is killed. I was talking about an aggressive goose around small children. Given that it is often difficult to sell adult geese or even give them away (especially nasty ones), the word cull is going to mean kill in this context. What other option is there? I'm sorry if you found this confusing, but I doubt that anyone else did.

By the way, Oxford dictionary disagrees with you:

"Cull (transitive verb) Pick (flower etc.); select; kill surplus (animals, as deer, seals etc.) ~ (noun) Act of culling; animal removed from the flock (and usu. fattened) as inferior or too old for breeding."

Gee, that sounds a lot like killing to me.

You have a wealth of good information and experience, Patrick, but you would communicate with people more effectively if you were not so quick to jump on and nitpick every detail. You're not perfect, Patrick. For instance, you made a classic error in either spelling or diction (take your choice) in your last post, but I'm not rubbing your nose in it, am I? (Well, maybe just a little!)

I'm interested in this point about avoiding having goslings imprint on humans. Can you all talk more about that?

Nicely? :)

How do you make them accustomed to you and your family without imprinting?

--Jonathan

One more point.

It is true that Patrick is being negative, grouchy, and nit-picking. He even opened up by saying that he might be coming across as a jerk.

I actually think that in the long run, this is an extremely helpful stance.

We're talking about significant matters here, of life and death, of the safety of children, the happiness of animals, and the preservation of an endangered species. It's best to err on the side of caution.

There is definitely a tendency in the Farm Life forum for people to jump quickly and easily to negative conclusions. But you know, this is just an information gathering place, and I think this immediate trouble-shooting is a better approach than just being nice and telling people what they want to hear. Browse some of the farm animal rescue sites to see how commonly the wrong people get the wrong animals, and what the heart-breaking repercussions can be.

The obvious response to this is that it never hurts to keep a friendly, civil tone, and I agree with this, but I want to make the other point too. Let's nitpick every detail, and consider all possible ramifications. There's a lot at stake. And if the advice doesn't really fit the situation, then it can be ignored.

There are some very knoweldgable and smart people posting here, and I am grateful for your advice.

--Jonathan

Okay, Jonathan, now that I have vented my spleen, I will play nicely again. :)

Regarding imprinting, here's how I see it... and others are welcome to disagree.

Goslings have an instinctive tendency to attach themselves to the first creature(s) they see. In ideal circumstances, this is good old momma goose. They follow her and look to her for protection, guidance etc. She teaches them and if they get out of line, she corrects them - very firmly. One of the things the parent geese seem to teach their young is that humans should be kept at a little distance. "They may be nice creatures, little goslings, but they are NOT GEESE." :)

Incubator goslings, or goslings removed from their parent just after hatching, have no mother goose to imprint on. Instead they have this human who feeds, waters, protects etc. So they attach themselves to this human. If the human responds by treating a gosling with all the handling and affection that one would accord to a puppy or kitten, the gosling grows up with no natural boundaries between it and the human. Some people feel such a goose lacks respect for humans. I'm not sure this is exactly the right word... but it's close. It certainly lacks inhibitions regarding its behaviour toward the human.

When breeding season rolls around, along about the following February, the geese - and particularly the ganders - are suddenly flooded with hormonal urges. If the gander lacks the inhibitions that would normally keep him at a safe distance from human "intruders" he MAY vent his over-protectiveness and possessiveness of his lady by attacking the very humans who nurtured him -- or any others that venture too near.

A goose-raised gander may normally hiss and snake his neck to warn people to keep away while he and his lady raise their young, but a hand-raised gander is more likely to go further than that, and bite and/or flog the human with his wings. It hurts plenty... and if this happened to a small child, serious damage could be done.

This being said, goose behaviour even during the breeding season is influenced by the underlying disposition of the individual bird. And this inborn disposition MAY be affected by genetics. Hence one breed gets good reviews (particularly Pilgrims and American Buffs) whereas certain others (particularly the Asian breeds which are not descended from the European greylag) have a reputation for aggressiveness. Certain breeds, and the Pilgrim is one of them, have been selectively bred for good dispositions, making it less likely that they will be aggressive as they mature.

In addition to this, Pilgrims are auto-sexing and even a beginner can tell the males from the females at a glance. This makes it much easier to be more reserved in one's handling of the ganders in particular. Last year, when I added a pair of Pilgrim goslings to the mixed breed family my two geese were raising, I took pains not to handfeed or pet the gander gosling. He was naturally reserved and I encouraged him to stay that way. I think the only time we picked him up or even touched him was once when we saw blood on his feathers and needed to check the extent of the injury. The female gosling was more friendly and when we had the geese out in the pasture for extra grazing she soon followed her foster mother's example and learned to take dandelion greens from my hand. I don't do this a lot with her; but Willow, (my first Pilgrim who was of necessity hand-raised) comes looking for attention from time to time. She is a sweetheart even during breeding season and Elsie follows her example. I do believe that one has more leeway with female geese than one has with ganders, but even Willow does not appreciate me handling her goslings when they are small. (And I respect this, except when necessary to return a gosling that has squeezed under the fence or otherwise needs rescuing. Even then Willow can be quite huffy about it... but not aggressive.)

Get me talking about my geese and I can go on and on... but I think that is enough to add at the moment. Please understand that these are subjective observations from a person who has just over two years experience with geese and that the sample of geese I have worked with has been a mere dozen. What I am doing with my geese now is working well for me and for the geese. They are friendly, but not lap geese. They are always glad to see us and give us a loud, joyous welcome; they know their names and will come when called (if they feel like it). Willow, with her winning ways and extremely sweet nature, is ALMOST a pet. The other two are not. But all of them enrich our lives, make us smile or shake our heads at their antics, and are altogether very satisfactory creatures to have about the place.

I've decided to go with a more respectable breeder: Holderread's Waterfowl Farm.

--Jonathan

My two yearling Pilgrims came from Holderreads (via my local hatchery, Performance Poultry.) They are wonderful geese - healthy, beautiful, gentle and friendly.