And when you think of another pretense to get hits for your website I've no doubt you will let us know.

Not sure that's what John is up to pn - after all his site is entirely non-commercial and personal and carries no advertising. I think he's just enthusiastic.
What really does concern me, and I have mentioned it before, is that he puts named pictures of his grandchildren onto the Internet. I think it is possible that putting up the school sports day video might actually be illegal according to the Data Protection Act 1998 since other children are pictured. We are not allowed to put pictures of the children at school on to a site or into any publication without written permission from the parents. Did you get that permission John?

If it isn't about advertising then he's obsessively interested in his own little gardening world and doesn't care bit about anything anywhere else. Why then make these occasional bids for attention on a site that anyone can see is almost entirely north americans? I guess there are no forums devoted exclusively to allotments in his neck of england. It seems a bit arrogant, really. If we want to know about allotments we can easily learn about them.

English allotment gardening is no more or less interesting than any other kind. I have yet to see him engage with anyone on this forum. I have mentioned it before, no response. I don't think there will be one this time either. Prove me wrong, John.

Pat,

I don't mind John's sharing some of the English way to garden. I have satellite Googled his allotment and seen another allotment. I find the English ways a bit quaint but interesting. They seem more careful about details and are neat in habits.

I guess sharing is one way of putting it. It's borderline spamming, IMO.

This is a discussion forum. Where is the discussion, other than comments with never any response from the OP?

I'm sorry you feel the way you do pn. I have participated in discussions on this forum, though not as often as I'd like to... Being from another country I don't always understand or can't contribute, but I do read and find the challenges and solutions in another part of the world interesting.

That's why, when I have a post that may be of common interest, I'll mention it on this forum to see if the topic is handled in a different way in N America... If we can learn anything from you. That's why the post asks for (constructive) comments. In the past readers have expressed an interest in our appproach in England.

But it's not rocket science pn... If you don't agree with that then don't read my topics... and please don't get soooooo uptight about something that's entirely altruistic and non commercial.

Hi flora... I'm sure I did get permission but have no evidence (think it was the 'sign your name on this sheet as you go in' type of thing). The post on the school sports day didn't mention the school but in the cause of safety first the post has been removed... If only to save the world from the footage of my two normally loving grown up daughters battling it out in the mum's race!

Regards, John

Thanks for responding, John.

Maybe my point in this "getting uptight" is that I don't agree that there is some kind of mysterious gardening divide between the UK and most of America/Canada. Your occasional encouragements to come look at allotments as if they have scarcely anything to do with gardens in northeastern north america, while opting out of any discussions about actual gardening, just makes it seem (to me) as if the motivation is simply to get hits. You have now said that is not so. Fair enough.

BTW, the climate in many parts of north america is not extremely dis-similar, the crops for the most part are the same, really the only difference is that north americans do not garden together in dedicated publically-owned clusters, with a few exceptions. Consequently, mass break-ins to garden sheds don't present. You've struck upon one rather arbitrary point of divergence.

FWIW, I agree that locking the sheds is hardly worth while.

I don't know about the United States, but up here, allotment gardening, or as we call it, Community Gardening, is really catching on. They've been around for years, at least in my neighbourhood, but lately more people seem to be interested in growing their own food, and we are now seeing waiting lists for garden plots. In an urban environment there is not always enough room in our small yards to accommodate both vegetable and ornamental plantings, so to have a 10' by 20'piece of land just down the street is a godsend. This is my second year making use of our community garden, and it's quite amazing how much food I can get out of it. It sure beats squeezing everything in amongst my roses and clematis!

As for security, so far we have had no problems, but it wouldn't be too difficult to climb our fence. No one would mind someone who is hungry helping themselves to a few fruits and veggies, but making off with our tools and destroying crops just for the fun of it - now that would make me pretty angry. Let's just hope it doesn't happen!

Judith

John,

Thank you for your interesting post and blog link. I hadn't heard of allotment gardening and thanks to your post I am now a more well-rounded, educated gardener. Now, the next time I see a reference to allotment gardening, I will know precisely what it is all about. This post is rather timely as well. A good friend was just telling me today how upset he was that someone pulled his cherry tomato plants from his plot at his community garden. Left everything else, just took the cherry tomato plants. There isn't much he can do is this is an open lot with no fencing or other security measures. We just couldn't imagine why someone would do such a thing, especially since there wasn't yet any fruit set, just flowers. We chalked it up to a jealous gardener who couldn't stand the fact that he beat the odds and had healthy, thriving cherry tomato plants in spite of our unusually cool spring.

Again, much appreciate you bringing the topic up, and boosting my global gardening IQ.

Cheers
Steve

I didn't realize that allotments were the same as what we called community gardens. Is that the common way people garden in more urban areas of the UK?

Here in the US, I think urban gardeners are more prone to put containers on their patios, but I do think the allotment/community garden is gaining popularity.

Count me in as someone who finds it interesting to hear how people garden in other countries. I always just assumed we do it roughly the same from country to country, that differences had more to do with the amount of property you had. I.e., people with acreage tended to "farm" (i.e., big rows in the ground). In the suburbs, raised beds are more common. When you're in the city, you garden on your patio.

Even WITH my plot at the community garden I still manage to plant up a few pots of lettuce and herbs for the front and back balcony :0) I tried to get a second plot this year, but there were just too many takers...
Judith

My understanding is that shared labor on the UK allotment system is not common. Is that correct, John? It's each gardener to his plot.

Whereas community gardens in US/Canadian cities may have quite a bit of shared labor. Is that your experience, Judith?

I'm not Judith, but, looking and studying community gardens tells me that most of the "plots" are family owned.
A few I have seen have large areas, such as green beans making a "tent" that people share.
I haven't looked at the site, but have seen many other posts by him and don't have a problem with him!
He just seems to come from the other side of the pond, and have different gardening practices!
JMHO Nancy

The church behind my house has a community garden. I think they offer the space to parishoners. I'd always assumed in that set-up, everyone tends their own space. I don't know how I'd like people messing with my plot, even to be helpful. But I'm a control freak that way.

I think "community garden" is a loose term, much less defined than "allotment". That latter by its etymology implies autonomy. From what I have read often the big city vegetable gardens have experienced dedicated tenders and also get a lot of unskilled labor from schoolkids and etc.

British allotments are rented by individuals, not gardened in common. They are currently much sought after and waiting lists in some areas are long.

Pnbrown, in my neighbourhood, the community gardens are all made up of individually-tended plots. The only shared labour is general upkeep of the common areas - weeding and cutting grass, for example. There are also several cooperative gardens in other parts of the city, where the participants get to share in the work AND the harvest. I don't know if I could go the cooperative route though - I am, like Loribee, a bit of a control freak when it comes to my garden!

Judith

Judith, that's the way things are run in my area as well. The community gardens are offered through the town and are individually tended. The only cooperative garden I'm aware of is run by a non profit group and relies on shared labor. In return the coop members get a portion of the harvest.

I visited Minsk, a large city in Belarus, back in the early 1990s, and stayed with a friend living in a large apartment block (Communist style mass housing, a whole row of big apartment buildings). Out back were the garden areas. Every building had its own garden area, and every family had their own plot. I wasn't into gardening then and didn't notice much, but do remember the black soil, and someone showing off their giant carrots, tomatoes and cucumbers. It was a time of economic hardship so I do not know if city vegetable gardens were a tradition, or a way to cope with the food prices that were rising astronomically from one week to the next. Maybe both.

The co-op gardens are wonderful for families living in the inner city, a lot of them low-income. They all get plenty of fresh air working on the garden all summer, and lots of healthy produce in the fall. They probably couldn't afford fresh vegetables for their families otherwise. They had a booth at the Montreal Botanical Garden's Seedy Saturday in February - tons of people were milling around and signing up. It's a great idea.
Judith

Hi all, I would like to say I understand where John is coming from, I noticed that people thought he was spamming when we where in living in th US, but I found his blog interesting, as a UK person, he is just rather than boring you with post after post in a very different contitions he does a summary and visit his blog if you want to. it is a very British way to be, as in er, um, if you are interested, you could look at this. think Hugh Grant :)
we don't like to draw attention to ourselves, as in LOOK AT WHAT I HAVE DONE, we pose a lot of questions in order to draw you in
hope my link helps, I would have to add one which confused my American friends, "you look quite nice" means you look great, enjoy and laugh :D

Here is a link that might be useful: what we mean the British that is

Many thanks for all the interesting comments... And for the good laugh Heather at your post on 'what we mean the British that is'. There's a lot in what you say... It's difficult in a forum to put extensive arguments or info in a thread without boring the pants off everyone. Much better to put a few facts and then a link to a blog with all the details.

Pn, you're right about English allotments. They are held in a tenancy agreement with the Town Council by one person. Any sharing that happens tends to be amongst family... In my daughters case this involves them bringing their plants to the plot and me then planting, tending & watering them ( the plants I mean... I completed the tending of daughters long ago, although the sons still need periodic TLC!).

Some parts of our 250 allotments are very community related whilst other allotment holders don't want anything to do with anyone else & come to their plot for peace & quiet. We have a waiting list of 60.

Believe it or not, English allotments can trace their origins back more than 1,500 years and very much gained pace from the need to provide land for the poor who had moved from agricultural work to the towns and cities during the Industrial Revolution. More info at the link below.

John

Here is a link that might be useful: Allotment Heaven : History of Allotments

Heather, in my family we always said "you look nice" or "that looks nice". Dialect varies a lot in NA, you were only in the new england area, yeah?

John, could well be I have misunderstood your angle over the years. If, as you say, you don't participate in discussion here because you don't think you understand NA gardening ot don't want to "bore" us with UK gardening, then again I don't believe there is near as much difference as people may imagine. Kind of like the old "separated by a common language" myth. I was in southern england once, and darned if I couldn't understand pretty near every word.

On that basis pn I'll stick my tuppence worth in, and watch my language at the same time.

Regards, John

Aha pn - you think you understood ... ;) It's not just the words its the meaning of the words. The understatement, irony, sarcasm etc. I think it is the 'quite' that heather was referring too as being difficult for her friends to grasp, not the 'nice'. I had an American prof at uni and he said that even after several years in the UK he was never quite sure what we meant when we said 'quite'.

Regarding the differences between the gardening cultures. I've been around here for quite a long time and I think there are actually great differences in the attitudes, crops, climates, techniques and even the definition of gardening between the UK and the States. One thing which struck me immediately was the constant discussion of buying and bringing in materials and the notion of 'building a garden'. We tend to cultivate the soil that we have, rather thinking it needs something doing to it and building on top of. It's a completely different way of going about growing stuff. We also tend to have much smaller areas to play with and garden every inch, not just some discrete beds around the 'yard'. The relatively mild winters in the UK mean we garden all year round and our gardens are permanent fixtures, not something we create in the spring. The appearance of our gardens is also very different in my view. At least going by the pictures that get posted here.

It is precisely the differences which keep me interested in Gardenweb. I don't follow any UK garden sites because they don't tell me anything new. Even our basic tools vary. I have never used a shovel in my garden, for example, and even our wheel barrows look different. Other concepts I had to learn about to understand these forums: lasagne, amendments, alfalfa, growing more than a dozen tomato plants, horn worms, ucg, 'spading forks', 'tilling' hardening off meaning getting used to heat and sun not getting used to cold, rain and wind, growing runner beans but not eating them, driving to get stuff for your compost heap, yards without fences, not to mention the eggplants, zucchini, rutabagas and favas, etc etc.

It would be fun to hear from anyone out there who has gardened in the UK and noticed any of our strange ways.

John, I see that your allotment is about 11 x 24 meters...or 42 x 90 feet. Plus, you have another adjacent one to develop. I hope I figured it about right from the satellite photo.

Oops, I should have said 34 x 74 feet.

But, but Flora, "spading" the garden is classic British activity, isn't it? At least based on the tons of brit-lit I have read, people are constantly spading their gardens, with the possible exceptions of Robin Hood and Littlejohn. My most-used tool is a pick, followed by the fork, but a sharp shovel is unbeatable to turn over sod. Seriously, would you not use a shovel (spade) for heavy sod?

Regarding climate, most of NA is quite different from southern england, that is true - if not all of the UK, but some parts are close-ish. I eat something out of the garden nearly all year round.

And wasn't Heather contrasting "nice" with "great"? New englanders tend to say great. Both as a positive and a negative. I was raised in the south where 'nice' is much used, though not usually sarcastically.

My father (born in Sussex, moved to Canada in the late 50s) and grandfather taught me that a spade and shovel were vastly different tools - the spade being flat and straight (meant to work in the soil in place) and the shovel being slightly pointed and curved (meant to move soil). I can't say I've ever set about finding out whether that is indeed true, but it's what I was taught. :)

pn - this is very interesting :) I have to say I have never 'spaded' my garden. In fact I have never heard anyone use 'spade' as a verb. I have dug it frequently, however, but always with a fork, not a spade. Some people might use a spade but I garden on heavy clay and a spade is useless.

macky77 - you are dead right. A shovel is different from a spade and is used for shovelling ie moving soil or whatever from one place to another, not digging. A spade has D or T handle a rectangular blade and a foot rest for applying pressure. We do not use the long handled type of shovel used in the US and other parts of Europe. Our shovels look more like a robust spade with a bigger slightly scooped blade.

Since our gardens are permanent and most of us don't have any land which has not been cultivated before, a pick is a tool which is rarely used. In 40 odd years of gardening I have never needed to do anything to heavy sod ('turf' in UK English - 'sod' is rather a rude word) because I have never had the chance to create new beds in grass. Picks and shovels are basically regarded as tools of the building trade, not for gardening. My complete garden tool collection is: 2 sizes of spade (normal and border), two sizes of fork, hand trowel, hand fork, secateurs, rigid rake, spring tine rake, dutch hoe, draw hoe (which I rarely use), shears, edging shears, long handled pruners, bow saw, folding pruning saw and wheelbarrow.

Keep discussing pn - this is really interesting. Even the word 'garden' means something different in our two countries.

Here is a link that might be useful: Brit garden tools