I think you will find that in most cases designers and those who install the designs don't work for gardeners as such but almost by definition those who are not gardeners. A gardener may employ someone to do what is generally considered 'landscaping' like drives and walkways or someone to provide a design input when they feel stumped. Being a megalomaniac I don't work for anybody who doesn't hand over to me totally, so I don't work for gardeners..

I knew it.(that you were a megalomaniac in the design world.) And that is why Eric is aways pulling your whiskers. Yeah I am a passionate gardner and I don't want anyone doing it but me.

I don't have any problems designing/working for other passionate gardeners who share my taste/predilections in plants, but do admit that clients who are serious gardeners who don't agree with me can be a trial. Especially when they want to replicate the look of an East Coast/New England garden in a northern California setting, (lots of roses, clematis, hydrangeas, clipped boxwood hedges, Magnolias, etc.; but at the same time want to reduce their water bill, and do not like the look of most California native plants or other mediterranean plants that may fit their preferred color scheme, but just aren't "New Englandy" enough. I am still debating whether it is really wise to try reaching a meeting of the minds with this particular client who I know is knowledgeable and has a good design sensibility, but knows enough to be stubborn and dangerous. I think I have decided that it isn't worth all the debating entailed to make a case for using less water loving plants and more natives, and refer her to another designer that sees eye to eye with her plant wise. Life is too short to keep banging your head against the wall, although I do also appreciate clients that are not pushovers, and have provoked me into realizing that I am not always right!

Even if such a client loved all the same types of plants I do and wanted a particular style of garden that I enjoy designing, I would still be hesitant to design and install a garden that I didn't feel was environmentally appropriate to our local conditions, such as a garden requiring tons of water year round to keep looking good, or constant dead-heading and spraying for pests and diseases to have the perfect rose garden. Sometimes it is really best to just say no, but in a polite way if possible...

Some who have worked in my region have had a signature approach that was readily recognized and used for multiple projects, the clients getting a "look" that they had responded to beforehand--kind of like when buying an object. Although perhaps seeming a little crass or boring it could also be admitted that this might elimnate alot of the trouble, as long as the designer remained enthused about their "palette" and the market kept responding to it.

I'd sum it up by saying that passionate gardening is a religion. When a passionate gardener hires a designer it is to build the main structure of their church building and not to rewrite their religion. They don't want to be converted. Does it then become a matter of needing to be a dispassionate designer by suppressing your own passions in order to take on those of the passionate client? Or does it mean that you are an egomaniac if you stick to your own passions in designing for this type of client?

Most designers are passionate about "owning" their work. There are some who view their role with the idea that they are supposed to be able to meet any and all design challenges. Those people are fewer for a number of reasons that I won't opine on at the moment. People seem to want to put everyone in a box and generalize about what is in that box (I do it myself). The truth is that there is as much diversity in how designers think as there are designers. I think that we can have two boxes for the answers to questions like this. One box will have the feelings of each individual who responds by how thay actually do feel as an individual rather than a trend. The other box will have answers based on what someone feels they, or other designers should correctly feel (kind of like a politically correct answer). There is no box that holds a generalization that you can go out and expect to find in a designer that can be plucked out of the yellow pages.

I would also agree with bboy that many designers work with a look or set of looks that makes them recognized. I don't like that he implies that it is mostly cookie cutter work. If this was a fine arts discussion forum we might call it a genre or some other fanciful name. But it would seem far fetched to think of calling up Jackson Pollock and asking him to paint a family portrait because he was an artist. People work in media and styles that they are interested in and/or successful in whether they are painters or landscape designers or writers or whatever. Did Jackson Pollock or Picasso do cookie cutter work, or work within areas where they were interested and/or successful?

Great artists often did work out of what they were most interested in to get a paycheck from time to time. Writers sometimes work for ad companies. Musicians and singers do music for commercials. There is a balance between passion and starvation and starvation and pimping. We all draw our lines in different places. Where the right place for that line is can only be seen from where you are. Perspective.

It breaks down to what it always breaks down to. The client and the designer have to be well matched. The passionate gardener does not have any use for a passionate designer and vice versa. This client needs a utilitarian designer who can design the framework for the client to pour his/her passion into. Sometimes this type of client will believe that they need someone who is equally passionate and won't be satisfied until they find a kindred spirit (yes, I've been reading Anne of Green Gables to my daughter). Kindred spirits can be hard to find unless they happen to be well known for working in the genre of that passionate designer (ding!).

Perhaps there are two choices for the passionate gardener.
1. Find a kindred spirit.
2. Find someone who can build the framework to pour your passion into.

Those are the two boxes of the many, many, boxes that I would recommend looking into.

I personally like designing for gardeners and some of my happiest and most successful collaborations have been done with clients that are passionate gardeners. I find that they are more likely to think out of the box with regards to limiting or eliminating unnecessary lawn areas and developing unique layouts and garden features (like a painted stucco wall), are also more likely to be conscious of a need for sustainability, are a bit more bold with materials and are certainly much more receptive to a broader and less typical plant palette.

IME, the passionate or serious gardeners that have been my clients seem to understand that landscape design is far more than just plant selection and placement. They have that part more or less under their belt and want help developing a bigger picture. I wish I had more of them!

"Im too involved in the pleasures of the journey to want to take many shortcuts to get to the destination."

Sounds like you've been taking one too many commercial flights this holiday season.

But in response to your question, no - you're not an oddball, many people heavily involved in gardening share your views, and in addition there's the sense that your own creation, however imperfect and drawn-out in the making, brings far more pleasure than if you had someone do it for you. I am, however, content to eat store-bought bread, pick out my clothes at Bob's Emporium Of Sizes Other Than Yours and buy a car at the dealership. Pride in doing it yourself is a variable thing.

As for people in the business, I gather there's one set of frustrations in dealing with people who know next to nothing about gardening and want unrealistic and/or no-maintenance options, and another set of issues with knowledgable folks who want to micromanage their projects. The middle ground seems hard to attain, which is why I'm glad I make my living elsewhere.

By the way - is gardening a "religion" when you execute members of the congregation for malperformance? I was planning on a major clean-out of substandard plants in the basement light garden this weekend, and I don't want to be accused of perpetrating another Jonestown...

This is undoubtedly one of the finer discussions I've seen on this forum, as it focuses on an important distinction between the goals of landscape professionals and many passionate home gardeners. Whereas the former must, in many cases, necessarily focus on an end product which pleases the client, many gardeners approach their personal spaces with the understanding that both they and their gardens are forever in a state of flux, the product of organic processes and changing levels of human awareness, sensibility and interaction.
To borrow from a previous comparison, it is not unlike the difference between owning a Jackson Pollard (or other artist) vs. learning to fling some paint of one's own. Though we may be inspired and informed by the artist, it is the process of learning to create something that in the end provides the greatest satisfaction. Many of us, I think, jealously regard our gardens as opportunities for experimentation and learning, perhaps with the goal that in the process we may achieve some degree of horticultural / artistic knowledge and expression. Further, since we tend to see our gardens as extensions of our own ideas, the notion that our gardens would ever be completely finished is absurd, as it would indicate that we ourselves are finished.

Hmmm I figured the answers would more-or-less run along those lines i.e. there is no easy answer :- ) I guess the ideal situation would be for the passionate gardener to find a passionate designer and both respect each others passions to work together to build a framework that is a showcase for both their passions. I think thats what the collaboration of Gertrude Gekyll and Edwin Lutyens did. Ive long been fascinated by both those two individuals and the whole incredibly creative time they lived in where gardening, art and philosophy merged in wonderful ways. Its unlikely that I, as an average suburban middle-class gardener, am ever going to have an opportunity to see that kind of creative flowering (pardon the pun!) in our neighbourhood! But one can dream (and do the best one can with what one has, however inexpert the attempts)

I find it sad that there are no great, inspiring gardens around here that are open to the public. We live quite near, and are members of, the Royal Botanical Gardens but, while their botanical/environmental work is strong, I find the gardens leave a lot to be desired so much potential but uninspired results (not enough money is part of the problem)

Im a voracious reader on all thing garden related not just plant information but garden history and biographies too. While my garden would no doubt not meet some of your standards, it has changed and improved as my knowledge has widened. It is still a work in progress but one that gives me great satisfaction through the work involved in its creation, where it stands at the moment and the pleasure in planning future improvements. It would be nice at times to have the input of someone with a different perspective but, lurking here, Ive come to feel that the prospects of finding a suitably kindred spirit in the design arena are depressingly slim.

Gardengal I bet we could have some fun discussions and a productive result if we were in closer proximity. Id hire you for some design consultation.

gweirdo I agree. I dont own any Jackson Pollock (nor would I want to!) but I do fling paint around a bit to some satisfaction although considerably less satisfaction than playing with color in the garden!

I was thinking that SOMEBODY ELSE might see their work as what you have called here cookie cutter, but now that you mention it the identifying marks ARE the same plants and structures being used on different jobs. If that's cookie cutter, well then...

bboy, I should have been more careful. You really did not imply "cookie cutter" at all. I just read that into it, as I look at it again. I think you meant the same thing that I meant afterward and probably worded more clearly. Sorry about that.

Thanks for your concern. Since woodyoak might be getting this in their e-mail I'll add that I agree that when the customer already has a strong interest the designer will need to have similar ideas for it to work out. So, such customers are either a "pain" or not depending on how well a fit the designer is. And the customer is paying the piper.

I am not sure I agree totally with the 'a garden is never finished' notion. I think the difference between garden as product, which some are saying is the professional approach, and garden as process, the passionate gardeners approach is psychological. I am yet to be convinced that someone would deliberately plan to make something that can never be finished and desire to live in that constant frustration. It is more likely that the goals are smaller than overall completion and some satisfaction of being finished comes after mowing the lawn say, or getting all the beds weeded. The flaneur approach, I suspect is rare.

I think were revealing a lot about personalities here:- ) I dont find an unfinished garden in the least bit frustrating. Rather, its a constant incentive to do more. Its not that I deliberately plan to make an unfinished garden but rather that I dont want to be confined by the idea that the garden will reach a point where you can walk away and say its all done but the maintenance. I think that objective would display a lack of imagination on my part - and I have a very active imagination! Its true that I get satisfaction with each stage of the work but that lasts as long as it takes for me to think It would look better if I did.thus-and-so Im quite comfortable in an open-ended situation and a high degree of chaos. Its narrow goals, and too many constraints, that frustrate me.

I hope you are reading this Wellspring, I think woodyoak is one of ours. When Nandina started that other thread she was hinting at drawing influences from outside of the box marked "Garden" and here woodyoak is talking about not 'The'journey but her journey (I may be taking liberties with the 'her')and her journey is wrapped up in her garden. At this point I will take a commercial break to promote Stanley Kunitz and a book called "The Wild Braid". Kunitz had a garden that would drive me nuts but the way he talks/writes about it is the way I see my garden.

Sounds like a great book! Ive ordered it Have you ever noticed how many passionate gardeners live to ripe old ages.? :- )

P.S. you got the gender right

Tony,
i don't find it difficult to imagine that any garden is never finished, simply because the acts of nature alone insure that there will always be something to do, replace, divide, prune, etc. This in my mind is not simple maintenance, but will usually involve making changes as the same time. Even in historic gardens, with an eye to keeping continuity of the original design intact, there are bound to be changes that keep it from becoming static.

..and I think this is the kind of change that often takes people by surprise but obviously should be taken into account. The seasonal change, even the daily change as plants grow to some kind of pinnacle and beyond is the joy of gardening and as you say never static. However I do believe that we should do our best to show off this ever-changing carnival by, for instance getting bulbs in the ground on time and celebrating that as some kind of result. woodyoak says that it is a personality matter and she could be right but my approach, in my own garden that is, is to set myself a goal reach that goal and then sit on my deck with a beer and cigar to admire my work. The never-ending work with no cigar is not my cup of tea (if you get my mixed drift).

I think the notion of whether or not a garden is ever "done" is more closely related to how avid a gardener the person who resides in it may be. Those gardens designed for or prepared by essentially nongardeners do tend to have an endpoint, at least while that individual is in residence. The layout is planned, the plants are selected and planted and other than some regular, necessary maintenance and perhaps the addition of seasonal color, the garden is finished for all intents and purposes. Even the death of an existing plant doesn't necessarily generate significant change outside of replacement.

But with avid gardeners, the process tends to be far more absorbing than the end result. There is a nearly constant process of experimentation, editing and adding going on. These are the folks that haunt local nurseries and pour over catalogs, searching out that elusive new or specialty plant they simply must try. These are also the folks that are more inclined to self-education and that generates it own set of changes - growing plants from seeds, taking cuttings, doing grafting, learning about new and different plants.

Admiring the results of one's labors is right up there with enjoying the process but how we do that differs from gardener to gardener. Ink likes to sit back with a beer and a cigar, others may find harvesting a bountiful crop of edibles or gathering a bouquet the primary purpose of their garden. Still others find that admiration from others is what stokes their fire and spend countless days readying their gardens for public tours. And there are others still who find the process IS the goal - just being out in the garden, tending, grooming, planting and planning is all that matters - and for them the garden is well and truly never finished.

"Its about the journey more than the destination" is one of these politically correct utterances of superficial nonsense that enjoy some popularity of late. This phrase is but another case of stretching a fragment of truth into an absurd conclusion.

It is an all too frequent human foible that we insist upon creating a word set to "justify" personal deficiencies. Of course, the textbook example of this human trait is the Chicago crime legend, Pretty Boy Floyd. While sitting in his car in a Chicago park, in cold blood, he shot and killed a policeman that merely came up to wish him a pleasant day. When asked why he killed the officer, he also was able to "justify" his actions: "He needed killing." Absurd? Yes but not much more so than the above. It merely displays the way that humans will internally contort the actual circumstances to "justify" any and all actions of their choosing.

I always like analogies because they enable us to view almost identical circumstances from an entirely different perspective. I would suggest that we use a ladys new hair style (client) and hairstylist (designer). While it is true that there will be ongoing need for additional touch-up, maintenance, trimming and care; how many would accept anything less than a finished product (destination) when they walked out the door of a hair salon?

On the other hand, how many of us know someone who remodeled their own home (several years ago) and have a myriad of trim and details left unfinished? Do you want to call this perpetual, unfinished chaos and clutter of unfinished business a pleasant journey? Most people (usually not the frustrated wife) in that situation actually do "justify" their actions by either making jokes or citing some frivolous quote. The hard truth is that indecision, lack of confidence/knowledge to make correct choices and insufficient skills are the reality. Landscape projects suffer from the same maladies as do other home improvement projects: The owner often bites off more than they can chew.

"Take time to smell the roses." is oft-quoted sage advice. It wisely cautions one not to acquire tunnel vision and ignore the journey. To effectively bastardize this counsel into something that places no value on reaching the goal is intellectually irresponsible. This is falling prey to zero sum logic. Why choose one or the other when you can (and should) have both? To deny yourself the benefits of both is a failure to grasp what gardening is really all about. Stop "justifying" your inability to achieve the goal. And yes Your finished hairdo (landscape) will probably need an occasional trim.

I believe Ill join Tony in a fine cigar.

IronBelly

I can't wait to see the look on my husband's face when I tell him his failure to install the sink in the laundry room as it was designed several years ago makes him just like a sociopathic killer. ; )

This thread reminds me of a poem by Cavafy called "Ithaca" the first stanza of which is this:

When you set out for Ithaka
Ask that your way be long,
Full of adventure, full of instruction.

Not to get too philosphical (if it's not already too late) but let's assume, for instance, that a garden can be "finished." For many, the end goal is to have a "finished" garden and the journey is just a troublesome means to an end. On the other hand, for those who love gardening, enjoying the journey to a "finished" garden is more enjoyable that actually attaining that "finished" garden. So the journey is itself the means and the end, and for woodyoak and many others an "unfinished" garden is really the goal.

Put the phrase "it's about the journey more than the destination" into context, and it's really more than a "politically correct utterances of superficial nonsense". But I'll still join you guys for a cigar, if you'll have me.

Subtle it isn't Dan. Nor does it make much sense. I think we were quite happy talking around this subject until you drove your bulldozer through it. "indecision, lack of confidence/knowledge to make correct choices and insufficient skills" is an inaccurate asessment of woodyoak from what she has written here and I don't detect any justifying on her part either. You see, when you smoke a good cigar, it is the cigar that sets the pace, you can't hurry the experience because the cigar won't let you, it is a sharing along the journey. Smoking a cigar can be like inhaling the fragrance of a flower whose scent escapes those in a hurry.

In 1969 my family took a 2 week trip through New England, Upstate New York, and Canada (sorry, I should say Quebec and Ontario, but I'm American and you know how we are - Nova Scotia, British Columbia - same thing ... just kidding). It was a great trip with the destination being the same place we set out from. Now was that was alll about the journey?

I'd say it was all about a lot of destinations along the way rather than the journey which mainly consisted of me puking in the car a dozen times.

It really was a great series of destinations.

Is your garden a series of destinations or a journey?

I was enjoying this conversation and hoped its not boring everyone else too much! However I dont appreciate being compared to a homicidal maniac (a superficial, nonsensical one?) And Ironbelly obviously doesnt know much about how often I, any many women, change hairstyles just for fun and to relieve boredom with the current look!

I think Ink has concluded earlier I might be a slovenly gardener! So let me set the record straight: all my bulbs get planted on time; weeds are removed as they appear; beds are edged at least three times a year (early spring, mid-summer, and fall); flowers (and - gasp! - there are lots of them Im afraid!) get deadheaded promptly unless Im saving seed from them; pruning is done when needed and at the right time of the year for the plant; the lawn is mowed in a timely manner (DHs responsibility). I do a fair bit of lounging (sans beer and cigar!) on the front and back porches relaxing and admiring what my work has produced.

Let me give you some current examples of what I mean by unfinished. Im reasonably happy with the plantings around the south alley gate (except the underperforming Black Beauty Elder that got yanked in October havent decided what to replace it with yet) But, for several years, its been obvious both by by logic and convenience as well as the wear on the grass on the side lawn, that it would be best to have the backyard path to the gate continue through the gate to the driveway. The reason I had not done so was that a path would leave an awkward narrow strip of grass between where a path would run and the foundation bed against the house. The grass is on a slope and removing it would potentially leave the area vulnerable to erosion. While I knew a path was appropriate, I hadnt resolved in my mind what to do about the surroundings so nothing was done re putting in a path.

In mid-November, I finally decided to demolish the ugly garden shed that came with the house and build a nicer one. After having several cubic yards of gravel and loads of building supplies moved through the gate, there is now a definite path in place whether I like it or not! And I do like it it looks right there, as I knew it would. So, in the spring, it will be modified to be more suitable and, at this point, my thinking is that I will replace the awkward grass strip with a thyme lawn to bridge the path with the foundation bed and ease my concern about erosion. Between now and the spring, Ill be thinking more about what exactly I want to do there And, of course, many changes are required to the area around the new shed, as well as finishing the shed itself.

Thats what I mean by the garden is never finished. Something is always changing in addition to the natural growth issues bahia raised and the plant shopping/growing/care issues gardengal talks about. But I enjoy and welcome all these changes as they always end up resulting in improvements to the garden. No doubt all you pros would get everything done in one shot, but its more fun this way!

As a side note I cant remember seeing threads about sheds and other outbuildings re making them attractive and merging them with the rest of the garden. It seems an odd omission to the lines of questions given the number of ugly garden sheds Ive seen! Id better go do a search on that topic before someone berates me for bringing it up! :- )

Lets not personify my comments too much, Woodyoak. I realize that you have only been on board for a short time. This forum is an international forum and my comments are intended for an international audience not you specifically. From your description, I would discern your landscape as a series of completed projects (as I suspected from your intelligent posting) rather than merely an ongoing, half-completed saga that never ends.

Yes, there will be additional projects in the future as in my own landscape but to claim no desire to reach terminus belies your endeavors. I also strongly suspect that your landscape gardens far exceed the norm. I regret that you may have misinterpreted my intent. I can only offer sage advice from my long-departed grandmother: "If the shoe fits wear it. If it doesnt there is no need to keep trying it on." ;-)

I only offer a different perspective, not a way to berate you.

IronBelly

Im sitting here laughing. Ive experienced many journeys that have culminated with the statement "never again" and the consolation prize, while educational, isnt gratifying in the least. Cause: Not realistically assessing my limitations, the destination or the time/learning/capability curve.

On a personal note, I thought it prudent to not ask my husband whose journey he thought more enjoyable: his own journey of installing a split rail fence piecemeal, over several months, sans power auger or my neighbors experience of contracting the work completed in one day .

That said, Ive gone into projects thumbing my nose at instant gratification/consumption, and the goal may be to persevere or to educate. My motto at the start: "itll be a bonus if this works."

Cathy in SWPA

I'm glad that some, like Cathy, can retain a sense of humor and perspective on this thread. If I may... I would like to offer a bit more of my perspective call it my "justification", if you will. ;-)

"Its about the journey more than the destination" is a warm & fuzzy seemingly innocuous phrase. Clearly, it beckons to laissez faire. Also clear is the fact I have little fear of this phrase adversely affecting the outcome and/or enjoyment of Woodyoaks landscape.

As mentioned earlier, this is an international forum. Lets set Woodyoak aside for a moment and instead insert a more typical scenario, so often posted on this forum. Take the posting, "Scorched Earth", for example. Many frantic newbies frequently post on this forum, clearly overwhelmed. What advice should we offer? ...the equivalent of a Bobby McFerrin song, "Dont worry, Be Happy"? Perhaps we would be better to assume some leadership, like Laag did on that posting, and impart clear (perhaps not popular) thinking. Continuation of that scorched earth journey bears little hope of ever offering any "warm & fuzzy".

It is certainly appropriate to enjoy this avocation we generally call gardening. There is certainly something to be said for the therapeutic value of simply "playing in the dirt". However, simply playing at design all too frequently results in postings, such as "Scorched earth," appearing on this forum.

We are behooved not to endorse the mediocrity subconsciously couched within the title phrase. We should remain vigilant and refine our thinking as well as our gardens. The phrase, "Garbage in, Garbage out" plays a far larger role in the subconscious than many wish to believe. I long to raise the bar; not promote status quo.

IronBelly

now Ill just crawl back into my hole

Sorry. I hit the "preview" button and it posted the message before I was done proofreading. I need to turn off an italics tag.

IronBelly

...now REALLY going back into his hole.

IB, I totally understand the point you are making (I think), but is it being drawn in too broad a generality? I'm not sure it is safe or even reasonable to apply the journey versus destination theory to a post such as "Scorched Earth". It is pretty obvious that colloway's journey has only just begun and she as yet has no idea of what the destination should be or the route she should take to get there. Although in her most recent post, it seems she is making headway and at least is purusing the "travel brochures", so to speak :-)

OTOH, I get the impression that Woodyoak's destination is rather clearly defined but she has discovered that getting there is more than half the fun so why necessarily race for the end?

I think it is more a degree of the passion for the process and the level of experience that makes the journey aspect its own reward and pushes back the need for a final destination. That doesn't mean the destination is not clearly spelled out (subject to modification), only that the inevitable is pleasantly delayed.

I can totally relate to Woodyoak's desire to complete the journey at her own speed and without assistance. And this doesn't need to be qualifed as being a warm and fuzzy approach nor does it necessarily imply some sort of inferior product. It is more a matter of intent and purpose and determination. There are those that want the instant gratification of a completed landscape - the destination - and are not the slightest bit interested in the journey other than how long it takes and how much it may cost. And yet others - the "roadtrippers" to borrow from laag's vacation analogy - find the journey as absorbing and rewarding as arriving at the destination, if not more so. That doesn't necessarily lead to chaos and clutter but rather to a much deeper appreciation of the destination and a growing sense of expectancy as it comes closer.

Well put GG48.

I see no mystery. There are many different attitudes toward ones space. Some appreciate a well designed landscape, but lack the skills to create it, so they hire landscape designers. Some can visualize just what they want, but dont want to do the work, so they hire gardeners. A fortunate few feel passionately enough about the entire process to do research, design, and labor to see it through well, here we are ;-) Some love the process of planting and growing, and see that as a reward on its own.

Sadly, many people dont give a rats @$$ and just live with whatever it there when they move in. "Oh, youre a landscaper? Do you cut grass AND trim hedges?"

With that in mind, Im heartened by anyone who cares enough to ask good questions, and dig in, in both the literal and metaphorical sense. We were all novices once, and no one knows it all.

Enjoy the journey indeed, fuzzy or otherwise.

"If I may... I would like to offer a bit more of my perspective call it my "justification", if you will."

Like grandma used to say - "If you've stepped in something, clean off your shoes and move on." :)

Time. That's what came to my mind on reading through this thread. Maybe it's because my physical and financial limitations frustrate me so much each year. I think of relatively small projects, like the border around a sunken patio area in my back garden that needs complete renovation, and my inability to put into effect what needs to be done. Quite apart from whether or not I might or might not be able to redesign this area, there's the fact that I am not likely to be able to dig out the bed (which has gravel 3 inches below the surface), widen the border, replace the horrible soil with something better, regrade, and plant. I just don't think that I can physically do it.

That's the glass half empty story. And, I am extraordinarily critical of my progress. Probably explains why I like haunting this forum. I desire to know about design, to try to execute some of its principles. Sometimes knowing a thing means that one begins to accomplish its perogatives or finds someone qualified to help you do so. For some of us knowing more of a thing simply means that we know much more about how we are missing the mark.

And time moves on

There is, fortunately, a glass that's half full. My basic approach is similar to woodyoak. Here and there, sometimes, I have achieved or accidentally created a "sweet spot". Usually these are relatively small sections of the bigger picture that come together in some way that pleases me or a visitor to the garden. Grace--not the virtue, but my 5 year-old neighbor--sometimes provides the affirmation and encouragement. She "loves" my garden and constantly wanders over to offer suggestions and advice. In the freakish warm weather we had around Thanksgiving she helped me "rescue" earthworms as I worked to get in last minute bulbs.

So, I find myself running up and down the spectrum between frustrated destinations, on the one hand, and the pure exultant gift--grace?--that in a deplorably cracked driveway a child can still occasionally offer salvation to an earthworm.

Wellspring

Journey or destination?

To quote the sometimes abrasive, but always lovable IB, "That depends"

Time caught my attention first, but a second theme bubbled up as well. It seemed different enough to post separately, and seems to hinge on the vagaries of human variation.

My professional work includes mediation, group problem-solving, and group goal-setting. There's plenty of work in the field of decision-making preferences and, related to that, leadership styles that suggests that we humans are a variable lot. People fall somewhere on a spectrum, there being few people who function always and purely in one mode or approach.

One preference that seems relative here is that some people prefer decision accomplishement. These are generally task oriented people. When they shop, they do it for something specific. They know exactly what they want. If it's on the shelf, they walk out of the store in 5 minutes. Job done. They take pleasure and satisfaction from completing the task and become uncomfortable with "unnecessary" delays. They don't much like the introduction of new information, particularly late in the game. They decide and execute.

Then there are those who take delight in the process. They are always ready for another angle, a new wrinkle, more and more options. A final decision means short-circuiting the fun. These folks shop for shoppings sake. If they do go in a store for something specific, and it's not on the shelf, they may enjoy considering all the other possibilities on offer and will then wander on to related items and then not-so-related items. They may leave the store hours later, empty handed, but happy because they learned some new things. Or they'll go in for a wrench and come out with baby clothes for the neighbor's newborn.

By the way, neither preference determines inteligence or organizational ability.

When I'm helping groups form for a decision-making process (the oxymoron is intentional), I help people understand something about these preferences and the advantages of resourcing the strengths of each approach. Without a great deal of discipline and self-awareness, a group made up of persons who strongly prefer process over decision completion will never complete its task. There will always be another new angle to explore. Meetings will tend to be extremely long as every detail is discussed endlessly.

If you need a decision to be made, make sure there is at least one person on the team who prefers decision completion and has good interactive leadership skills. The process people on the team will deepen and broaden the scope of the decision, helping to insure that all the essential angles are explored.

Because I sometimes work with anxious and/or conflicted groups, I am also very aware of the dangers of too strong a presence of those who prefer decision completion. When humans are under stress, we all tend to prefer to move directly to a solution. I think we see that demonstrated in some of the posts here. It will appear to be the quickest way to reduce the stress. Sometimes that means moving an organization to a solution that really is a bandaid over deeper issues. The standard recommendation for these situations is to create a slower, structured process that helps a group clarify problems and brainstorm varieties of solutions, so that the best solution can be achieved.

Sorry for the long segway, but my point is that people do have different preferences and comfort levels with decisions and process. We will work the problems differently in our back yards and our lives. One person will crystalize a landscape solution very quickly, and then execute it in short order. Little risk here, if the person happens to be a great landscape designer. Others will constantly redesign their landscapes with varieties of widely ranging optional approaches. Again, great creative energy here, if coupled with landscape design ability, and these designers will be much less frustrated when their clients suddenly throw previously unmentionned needs and wants into the picture. Scrap that perfect design and start over? No problem (or less of one) for these types.

Finally, I don't think that all landscape designers are in the decision completion camp and all passionate gardeners always from the process camp. Just don't think humans do things so decently and in order.

Wellspring

Interesting discussion on decision-making Wellspring. I suspect most people reading this thread will assume I fall into the process people category. But Im actually much closer to the task oriented decision maker I think. Using your shopping analogy, I research the things I want, determine the most likely place to have it and then go out seeking specifically whatever it is Im looking for. I only get distracted in my shopping if I find myself in a place that has something else I need for some other project I have underway. (Garden centers tend to lead to distractions but I rarely buy at random. I almost always know exactly where whatever it is will go in the garden and its there for a specific reason. Not that everything I buy works out as I planned:- )

I do what it takes to get what Im looking for as the guy building my shed found out! We had a miscommunication about what shingles I meant for siding. Being from the east coast, cedar shingle siding for me means sidewall grade eastern white cedar. Thats sort of foreign stuff up here in Ontario where cedar shingles mean either roofing grade or some other, very rustic grade of shingle. So he had to take back what he had got and, given his blank look when I explained more clearly what shingles I was talking about, I did the research, found the specific product I wanted, hunted down a local supplier (custom order up here!), gave him very specific details about what to order (and another advance to cover the additional cost I thought the quote was too good to be true and now I know why!), and spent all day yesterday tracking down appropriate matching stain for trim for the shed. Ink referred to IB as a bulldozer above. My friends call me one too!

The Twisted Braid book Ink recommended arrived this morning it looks interesting. Time to go read

Oops! It's me that's twisted! Make that ' The Wild Braid".....

Hmm. I don't think enjoying the process means sitting around with unfinished baseboards. I think, for most people who "enjoy the journey" (trite, but accurate), part of the enjoyment is dreaming of the endpoint AND enjoying the endpoint when you reach it. In fact, I think that people who are forever "enjoying the journey" are adicted to the satisfaction of reaching the endpoint, so much so that, after basking in the sense of accomplishment for a while, they start another project so they can hit the project-completion high again.

We have some friends who are in perpetual home-remodel mode. A deck, finishing the basement, a remodel of the living room, the landscaping, etc. None of these projects remain unfinished. They get done, look beautiful, are shown off at the annual Christmas party, and then another project commences. This year at the annual Christmas party, it was an expasnion of the bathroom (still in progress but close to finishing).

The landscaping is even more fun for those that like gardening projects, partly because the stakes are much lower than for a house and you can usually proceed at your leisure. When your bathroom is being remodeled, time can be of the essence.

Kelly

I still think there are two sets of interpretations going on.

Those that say they love the journey may really be enjoying a series of destinations like Kelly's remodeling friends.

Others view those saying they love the journey as going around in circles.

If the journey means a series of destinations, I think that is something to enjoy. If it means going around in circles, I think that is a very unenjoyable journey.

Yes, Laag, and if Im brutally honest, in life Ive used the "journey" as a handy-dandy rationalization to justify poor results due to poor initial assessment, etc.

On a personal note, my elderly parents had a landscaper work for them several years ago. The design included tying large, existing foundation plants to a larger existing silver maple via a two-foot wide area of mulch. In addition to planting under the silver maple, the plants used topped the list of gastronomical delights on the voracious deer menu. In this specific instance, my parents destination has become a journey in perpetuity.

Cathy in SWPA

No, it's not about going around in circles, and it is not merely a justification for the inability to get the job done. In fact, overcoming the inability to get the job done is part of this journey. I like to think of it as a journey of self-discovery, and not always pleasant. The garden, or at least the part of the garden we are presently working on, can be seen as a personal expression of our own thoughts and abilities, combined with the actions of nature at a given point in time. Does this mean that we don't enjoy our successes along the way? Absolutely not, in fact it is the enjoyment of our successes, such as they are, that drives us to do more.