Because in India, the government didn't have regulators, they didn't keep an eye on anything that was going on, and you essentially had Cletus and Billy Ray (or the equivalent of bucked toothed names in Hindi) watching the damn tanks.

The tragedy in Bhopal was caused by water leaking into a tank with chemicals that react with H2O during cleaning. To make a correlation between Carbaryl and the chemicals that were being used in almost every industrial application across the globe is irresponsible.

The Indian government was begging industries and companies to move to India and help grow the country's economy, and they looked the other way when local managers and workers would ignore safety regulations. When it comes down to it, humans are no better than ferengi. To point the finger at any one culprit is a bit of a misnomer. Once the disaster happened neither the chemical companies nor the government of India wanted to touch that site, or help clean up the materials that were used daily at that site. Had the Indian EPA (oh sorry, that doesn't exist) or the Indian regulators (those are fiction too...) insisted on cleaning up the spill and restoring the city to a condition that was acceptable..... but this is the real world, and clean up = liability.

Heavy metals are used all over industrial production centers, including mercury. I am not a chemist or an engineer, but I can tell you that if there were ANY heavy metals in the farm chemicals that are currently used, even trace amounts, not only would people and farm animals become very very sick very quickly, the plants would wither and DIE with the first application of those chemicals.

Remember the context of Bhopal. I have struggled with trying to figure that tragedy out for a long time, and in the end I realized it was people running an industrial plant that had no business anywhere NEAR industrial chemicals. It would be like having high school dropouts from Cotton Plant, Arkansas, trying to create industrial solvents. Even professionals and plants that take every precaution have accidents. The reason why "Made in the USA" costs more is because we at least TRY to criminalize that kind of reckless negligence.

And let me just add that if I were a Indian, I would take a page out of France's book. I would get out pitchforks and torches and chop off marie anionette's head, or whatever the Indian equivalent of her would be, the leaders who left their people to rot.

*disclaimer*

There is nothing wrong with either high school dropouts, nor people whose names are Cletus or Billy Ray who happen to reside in Cotton Plant, AR, nor anyone who might happen to have buck teeth.

Well - I do not use Sevin, and won't.

That is your choice, However Carbaryl contains only carbon, hydrogen,Oxygen, and nitrogen.

There may be many reasons for using or not using Sevin in the vegetable garden - many don't and many do - their choice. But what happened in Bhopal is by far the least relevant factor in making that personal choice.

For me personally the crucial factors are

1) the different effects on beneficial insects of the liquid form vs. the dust and

2) the time of day application and

3) use only when proven necessary as opposed to just using it on the off chance that some bug wanders by like many do.

Dave

I choose not to use it as well, primarily because of the risk of destroying beneficials in my garden. However, the risks to my health are also part of my decision not to use it.

Below is a link to their safety sheet for anyone interested.

Here is a link that might be useful: pdf on using sevin

I would think that a large chemical plant such as that probably produces many, many different products with many different ingredients. Just because the plant may use mercury in some products doesn't mean it is present in Sevin.

I found an article from an anti-pesticide group discussing some of the problems it has with Sevin. It doesn't mention mercury at all.

Like any product, it can be use responsibly or irresponsibly. And, we still, at least for the moment, have freedom of choice and freedom of conscience here, to make our own choices about these things.

Personally, I have no problem using consumer-grade insecticides, herbicides, and fungicides to enhance the chances that I'll have desirable outcomes in my gardening. I'd much rather put some imadicloprid on my magnolia than watch it die from an infestation of scale, or spray my nascent fruit with imidan than watch it all fall of the tree riddle with plum curculio maggots.

Sevin does a good job on basic problems, such as cabbage worms or aphids. There are, however, many alternatives to it, some more "green" than others. Bottom line, I think, is for everyone to do what is right for themselves, do it responsibly, and to respect each other's choices.

Here is a link that might be useful: These folks don't like Sevin very much.

2/10
Almost had some merit, but blatantly obvious trolling was way too easy to spot.

I think that there are some good responses here. I don't want to be poisoned, but also not needlessly scared.

I can see where one is raising glads and would not want the tiny and elusive thrips to decimate the blooms, and I can see a few other situations where one cannot stalk little buggers day and night. Still, for the most part, the insecticides are not necessary for most garden crops.

" 2/10
Almost had some merit, but blatantly obvious trolling was way too easy to spot."
Edmynion, Would you please explain your remark. I am not sure how to take it.....pardon my naiveity.

wayne, I was wondering what that meant as well.

The chemical that poisoned people in India was methyl isocyanate. Sevin on the other hand is 1-naphthyl methylcarbamate. They are related, but NOT the same thing. In chemistry, being related to a compound carries no meaning. Water and hydrogen peroxide differ by just one oxygen atom.

While there are valid points against using Sevin(it kills beneficial insects) and against the manufacture of Sevin (it uses dangerous chemicals), the two points are distinct from one another.

Chris cl: there are infact plenty of heavy metals in ag and garden products. Cadmium, mercury, occasionally arsenic and uranium and most often lead.

Mindy, there are heavy metals to some degree in many, many things. The main thing is the dose. Your soil could easily have 10ppm of lead and likely more than that of arsenic.

^What Wayne said is true. I live in a major wheat growing area in Canada and our soils are naturally high in cadmium. When I say "high", I mean relative to the rest of the world, but it's still too low to impact human health. Nevertheless, the wheat grown here is often too high in cadmium to pass European import regulations. That doesn't mean Canadian wheat is toxic.

lol yes mindy, but heavy metals in trace amounts are in fact nutrients to the plants, I meant that heavy metals in the concentrations and forms that are harmful. I was more making a statement about drawing a correlation between how people do things in different countries, and how an environmental disaster in a country so different from the US has no bearing on what goes on over here.

The post by Ed was in reference to the OP, he was calling her out for being a "troll", someone who makes a broad statement hoping to create noise or an argument; a howler monkey if you will. A troll usually makes sarcastic remarks and acts in a somewhat childish way.

Not that there's anything wrong with trolololols, U jelly?

Wayne, im well aware of background soil levels. Im an environmental sciences major. My point was that chris said that there are NO heavy metals in these products and that even trace amounts would kill plants, which neither of those are true. I have vegetables growing in 350, 450, and 780 ppm lead contaminated soil. Only the plants in the 780 are showing any stress but they are still producing. And half of the city i live in is a superfund site because of asarco. The university tested community garden produce and a lot of it was really unsafe for children to eat and only safe in small quantities for adults. Some of it was fine though!! Because not all plants uptake these contaminants, but even the ones that did still looked normal and produced normal. And also let me say that just because the government says a mcl is OK does not make it NOT detrimental to your health.

Mindy, I have heard that it really only dangerous to eat leafy greens in leaded soils, but fruits are ok as the fruits don't contain the lead, only the leafy green parts do. Not sure if it's true, it's just what I have heard. Not sure if the same is true for other heavy metals though...

Carbon monoxide contains only carbon and oxygen, that doesn't mean it's safe.

Cheers,
-Rathos

Ratios,

I was going to comment on what sevindust "only contains", but just let it go lol. The package also contains a large label advising to keep away from children, as well as a lengthy list of things that can happen due to over exposure. That being said though, there are a lot of "organic" products on the market that are probably as dangerous if not more so... I just think the problem is that a lot of people just use these products willy nilly when they are not really needed. I also think there are a lot of irresponsible employees at the stores that sell these items and recommend them with out really any qualifications to do so...

Sevin/carb is a likely carcinogen and totally indiscriminate about what it kills.

We got better stuff these days that can be more selectively applied, imo.

If you're really worried about mercury and heavy metals watch out where you get your chicken manure/compost from. That is where you're going to find most of your nasty heavy metals. We put some really "really?" stuff into our animals we eat and the food that they consume before we eat them.

Howelbama: we had toms come back at 30 ppm, which was higher than expected and the soil in this garden was below epa defined clean up levels (400 ppm). Ill let you know the results of our study this summer. But what they found was lead in both fruit and leaf tissue. Not much in root veggies. We are trying to confirm those findings AND figure the ratio of lead concentration to plant tissue concentration. Another student is also studying hyperaccumulator plants alongside the veggies. I really have no clue whats in sevin which is why i wouldnt use it, but any one who thinks these products are regulated in any meaningful way is wrong.

SLimy Okra -- your response came the closest to answering my question, I think. I understand that the chemical compounds can go through changes,(and the chemical that killed people was part of the process, not part of the finished product, is that correct?) But this is what I don't get -- if mercury stays mercury (doesn't go through a chemical change), then why are levels so high in Bhopal now? Is it because mercury was used somehow in the manufacture of the Sevin, but is not in it? (As far as I could tell from reading, the plant was only making Sevin and nothing else.)

I know that heavy metals can be effective insecticides -- Arsenate of Lead was a favorite during the 40's, and is the reason many orchards are still so high in lead.

Mindy, I'm so sorry you are dealing with so much lead in your soil. Sounds like you're doing the best you can with it, though.

Everyone up hill of me uses Sevin totally indiscriminately. I want to know what is running down into my garden and if I should dig a drainage ditch!

Good discussion and interesting points. THanks, everyone. I hate those middle of the night scary articles about poisons and dangers -- it helps to discuss it with folks.

Are you in a community garden or extreme close proximity of a neighbors garden Elisa? If not, I would not worry about it at all, even if you were in a community garden, unless a person dumped sevindust all over your plot, I would still not worry about it. Youll be absolutely fine, just enjoy your garden, and use the products you are comfortable using on it :)

well - I would be concerned elisa, and might do more to check into what was coming onto my area. It is one of the issues in living closely to others.....

Also - I don't understand the attitude that something bad happened in india - but who cares.....doesn't affect our usage.

I'm sure I'm not alone in avoiding products from companies that I deem irresponsible.

The manufacture of pesticide, in general, is irresponsible and the marketing of it is outrageous.

Yes - used responsibly and in small contained areas can be fairly innocuous but companies don't advocate that - if they're producing it, they want to sell as much as possible.....

Really healthy soil and plants are pest and disease resistant, so I focus on that aspect. Each year - the garden is getting better.......

I actually have to be pretty vocal about not wanting poisons on my garden, since the neighbors use so much Sevin (every summer, on certain days, the gardens just turn white, with every plant completely covered.) and because they are wonderful, generous people who might just help me out when I'm gone by putting some on my garden!

What happened in India is so far beyond our comprehension of tragedy, I think it's very hard to even think about. And the fact that it's still a dead zone all these decades later is so sad. That's why the heavy metal thing became so perplexing to me. I guess I'll either have to have my soil tested (there was a local's garden on my plot years before we bought the house -- I'm sure doused in Sevin regularly) or go back to not worrying because there's not much I can do.

But here's something I can maybe do something about -- one of the neighbors up the hill from me (not very close, but definitely up-water when it rains) has about 7 - 8 dogs and many cats. Every summer when the fleas get bad, it's the job of the children to douse all the animals in Sevin. No masks, no protective clothing, and lots of animals before they're done. This is a wonderful family, and I have a lot of respect for them for their love and generosity (the younger kids are boys they rescued and adopted from a crystal meth house) and they normally think of me as just a transplant "grainola" who doesn't know anything about their country ways. But if I can give them some information to stop this summer Sevin exposure of their kids, that would be great. For a few years my dad (a Vet) supplied them with Frontline (it's too expensive for them to buy). But you can't give people too much or they think that you think they're a charity case. I'll be mulling this over to figure out if there is anything I can do.

Thanks, again, for all the encouraging words and information. Fear is such a bad feeling. Don't worry, don't worry, don't worry. Especially while in the garden :)

I have no love for pesticides but paranoia is breeding on this forum often.
As the song says: Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep....
It is the creeping part that is most dangerous and no one see it coming or wants to believe it is happening.

Here is a site with hard core information on Carbayl:

http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/chemical/pim147.htm

As much as I rarely use pesticides, I also still have a can of genuine DDT it need be.

Well mindy, How can I get my soils tested for heavy metals? Would that be available with any testing service?

I thought that higher levels of heavy metals cause toxicity in plants, like Magnesium, Copper, Cadmium, Nickel, and stuff like that. Do you live in a suburb or an urban area?

I guess I'm blessed to be where I am, I am outside of Springfield on a homestead that has been a family farm for generations. The dirt that I garden in was pastured for cattle the last 50 years, and never had chemicals applied to it.

I add horse manure and their sawdust bedding to my garden with my manure spreader, and I only add to that with Aqueous ammonia on my corn for the extra N they need.

Last year the only thing I really harvested was Sweet corn. My tomatoes couldn't handle the 2+ inches per week of rain, and everything else got eaten by bugs. I lost all of my cucumbers to the striped cucumber beetle, it infected my pumpkins, cukes, and watermelon with a wilt, I'm not sure which one it was.

This year I have kept a preventive layer of sevin on most all of my veggies. I'm sure that there is a better and less chemical way of gardening, but I refuse to let disease and rot run rampant in my garden, caused by disgusting, disease carrying winged insectoid rats.

With my layer of sevin, I have to be mindful to keep watch for infestation after it rains, because it washes off the chemical. This last sunday night we got a decent 1 inch rain here, and by the time I got off work and out to my garden Monday afternoon, japanese beetles had done this:

{{gwi:62717}}

{{gwi:62719}}

{{gwi:62720}}

Those were all taken on June 17. If those beetles clip the tassels, No sweet corn for me. It's less of a problem after the tassel has fully emerged and shed it's pollen, but they also love to clip the silks of the corn.

What kind of Ogranic controls could I use to stop them from eating everything? In my mind there is little difference between BT powder/spray and Sevin powder/spray.

Two years ago they completely defoliated my 15 year old cherry tree. I loved making cherry pie and cherry crisp with the fresh cherries it grew, but after they defoliated it, it didn't slower the next year, and I had to cut it down. Although it was near the end of it's life, I could have gotten a few more years out of her, at least enough to get new cherry tree saplings ordered and growing a few years.

Oh, btw, they defoliated it over the course of a day and a half.

" 2/10
Almost had some merit, but blatantly obvious trolling was way too easy to spot."
Edmynion, Would you please explain your remark. I am not sure how to take it.....pardon my naivety.

Trolling: To make a comment, post, or thread for the express purpose of causing a disturbance. Usually identified by being an unrelated hot button issue, or through use of fallacy to intentionally make one side of an issue look bad in order to illicit a response.

2/10, two out of ten points. Scoring their attempt at trolling.

Trollface is a meme that celebrates and disparages the Internet troll and the act of purposefully creating controversy and havoc in online communities (such as posting a statement about mercury being in Sevin and Bhopal, making all gardeners who use it /rageface/ (however I am certain that the OP was not trolling, just asking/wondering why mercury was at the site, and why it hadn't been cleaned up)). Trollface originated with a short comic posted to 4chan's /v/ boards around November of 2008, and soon the face was cut, pasted, and photoshopped into any situation that had been or needed to be trolled. Trollface captures the sadistic pleasure of trolling, but is also used as a justification for misinformation. It's a reminder that we are all taking this too seriously, and that we were just trolling you anyway. So now you all know what trolling is.

{{gwi:62721}}

Ah, but the use of the term trolling predates 4chan getting a hold of it. It refers back to the classical troll waiting underneath a bridge, where a perfectly innocent looking bridge appears to be functional, but in reality serves no real purpose other than to provide cover for the troll to trick people into coming within reach.

The OP shows all of the classical signs of trolling. They took a hot button issue for these boards (the use of sevin), they linked it to the chemical mercury through a fallacious line of reasoning, and then upped the emotional impact by stating that mercury killed all those people.

Hence, if sevin has mercury in it, and mercury kills people, and "mercury is mercury", then sevin must therefore also kill people, and that anyone that uses it would be a monster.

As stated already, the two main fallacies here is that sevin does not in fact contain mercury (the eplant it was produced that exploded also made dozens if not hundreds of other chemical products), and that not all mercury is harmful, only raw elemental mercury is. Mercury does indeed change in chemical reactions. Remember, table salt is made of Sodium (a soft metal that explodes when it comes in contact with water) and Chlorine (a highly poisonous gas). Both of the parts would kill you on their own, but once reacted together they are vitally important in keeping you alive.

"the eplant it was produced" = "the plant at which it was produced"

Sorry about that, changed my sentence structure on that one and didn't finish cleaning it up.

Chris_CL 5 Springfield IL - man that is some serious infestation there. I assume you are also taking the recommended other steps to control such an infestation? I have found applying beneficial nematodes very effective at reducing the beetle populations since they kill the grubs in ground before they hatch. Going on the 4th year since treatment with still only a minimal population of them.

Dave

Dave, this happens to me every year. I brace the castle gates for the Ides of June onslaught of the swarm, I took a dozen more pictures of tree branches that they had defoliated at my place in that same time period, but I figured shorter was sweeter for this topic.

My problem is that any controls I could use like nematodes and milky spore (not sure if milky spore affects beneficials like worms or not) would be innefective, I am surrounded my hundreds upon hundreds of acres of farmland, and the farmers there don't even bother with spraying for the jap beetles.

The only control for adult beetles is either a physical row cover or barrier, or insecticides. Without either of those, they will decimate everything. I'm left with no choice but to use chemicals.

So I could control the beetle and grub population of my 20 acres, no problem, but the 40 next to me, the 20 on the opposite side of that, and the 640 acres directly to the south would still be refuges for the little buggers.

What we need is a biological control for them, much like what they did with the cereal leaf beetle. Years of spraying had no effect, even on a large scale with planes dropping chemicals over many counties back in the 60's, the solution came from a parasitic wasp whose larva fed on the CLB eggs. Now, you would be hard pressed to find a young guy who has even heard of the Cereal Leaf Beetle.

{{gwi:62722}}
{{gwi:62723}}

Here is a link that might be useful: Japanese beetle info from 2009

Ahh, I understand the problem you face then. It would take a whole wing of crop dusters to help you.

Looks like if I moved 2 counties east I'd be in better shape but you'd have to move 2 whole states west to improve. Good luck!

Dave

Holy crap...now we're talking about 4chan.

This thread is going in dangerous directions.

Seriously, though...if you want to be realistic about heavy metal contamination in your garden you need to watch the source of your food-producing animal manure (especially chickens) and "sludge" composts.

It sounds like I may be picking on "organics" but I'm not...that's where you're going to find the metals these days...bad sources for composting.

You'll take away my Sevin when you peel away my cold dead fingers. ;-)

Yeah - typical troll. Sevin - or the active ingredient in it - has been shown to cause cancer in mice. When you force-feed it to them every day of their lives. More relevant to us, the liver processes it and dumps it from the body quite rapidly.

If you don't have the modicum of intelligence it takes to apply Sevin properly - for you and for the bees - then you definitely shouldn't use it.

I don't think Elisa was trolling. As her anecdote about her crazy neighbours indicates, it is the people who misuse chemicals that give those chemicals a bad name.

Re: mercury. I'm baffled as to whether mercury is used in the production process, was involved in the production of something else, or just happened to be a contaminant. Then there's the added complication that methyl isocyanate can react with mercury to convert it into a more absorbable (=more toxic) form. Maybe someone with more expertise can weigh in on this.

Let's not gloss over Sevin's dangers. I mean, I'm not anti-chemical agriculture, myself, but the stuff is an anti-cholinesterase (nervous system disruptor) and it's a likely human carcinogen.

There's many more dangerous and irresponsible chemicals out there, but it's not inert.

Like almost all agriculture chemicals...it's not the 1-time application that causes people the most troubles, it's the consistent exposure. As far as humans go, I'd be more worried about the poster talking about the kids applying it to the dogs all summer and playing with them more than a gardener using it.

We can't say the same for bees, but yeah, there's a proper time and proper plants for application of the stuff.

Chris near Springfield.....Here in central Indiana I first noticed JBs about 20 years ago on some rose blooms. After a few more years they were getting kind of bad...eating ripe [especially sweet varieties] peaches and decimating the top leaf growth of plum trees.

In 2003 I trapped 270,000 of the bugers and killed thousands more with Sevin spray on wild grape vines and plum trees. I also hand killed many more. They also were bad on the outside rows of soybeans near me. I killed a bunch of them there too.

In 2004 I bought some Milky Spore and used most of it on my daughter's yard in Brookston and used a small amount in crucial areas in my yard.

Well, in 2010 I saw only a few JBs and last year I counted 8. I am not sure just what all has worked, including prayer.

One year I set up a trap too close to my silking corn and in 3 hours it was nearly, but not, ruined. Now I heartily believe in traps set early to kill the bugers as soon as possible to cut down on damage and to keep the females from laying eggs...be sure to use the scent for females also!!

I know that traps get a bad press, but I know that those beetles that I trap and drop in really hot water will do no more damage. Do not dump the dead beetles anywhere other than a road where they will be run over or a fire as some have unhatched larva in them.

"Let's not gloss over Sevin's dangers. I mean, I'm not anti-chemical agriculture, myself, but the stuff is an anti-cholinesterase (nervous system disruptor) and it's a likely human carcinogen."

For the record, so are french fries.

Well, there's arsenic in apples if you wanna get technical. Comparing Sevin's mode of action to french fries is...well, apples to oranges.

Also, as a cancer survivor...Mike Adams and his naturalnews cult of AIDS denial, false hope for sell, fake cancer "cures," and unregulated Chinese-made supplements can kiss my ass.

Chris -- that's a crazy level of infestation! Hope you get some good crops this year.

RpR Yes, paranoia strikes deep. Best Not to read scary stuff in middle of the night.

Ed -- yes, absolutely, a fearful mind follows fallacious lines of reasoning! (my Dad calls insomnia worry time Night Terrors) . Anyway, after reading the article, I came on here to try to get some info rather than continuing to read on the internet and probably get even more scared. My perception of this group is that there are quite a few knowledgeable scientists, or at least scientifically minded people, who could explain things. And you all have, which has been great: mercury CAN change in a chemical reaction. That plant was making lots of other things. The deadly chemical was part of the process, not part of the end result. Excellent info to calm down my worried mind. So, if there was trollishness in my post, I'm thrilled that it failed to have a trollish result -- the thread has remained very civil but with great info and a good discussion.

Except now I can't eat french fries anymore. :)

Elisa

Epic new word, trollishness... I'm poaching that!

{{gwi:62724}}

I'm rolling in my chair laughing that someone found a way to link french fries and cancer......

seriously....

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHA

Mike Adams and the "naturalnews" crew loves to scare people with 5-10 year old "news."

Any time you brown anything with starch you're going to find acrylamide.

I'm sure that site will sell you something to cure whatever it causes, though.

That hack that runs that dangerous fear-based libertarian-fear site believes if you drink brocolli juice you will never get cancer.

re: Mike Adams/naturalnews...

"If you drink even one ounce of broccoli juice every day and you combine that with some green tea, some vitamin D, a little bit of zinc, some turmeric and black pepper, berries from time to time, you will never get cancer, ever, because it cannot grow in that environment."

"Conventional medicine's explanations of HIV and AIDS are a medical myth at best; and outright quackery at worst. There is no such thing as a virus that "causes" AIDS."

Yeah, I got a problem with him...no troll.

nc-crn,

While you/we are at it, what do you think of this cancer fighter?

Here is a link that might be useful: Cancer Fighter

Regarding my arch nemesis, the Japanese Beetle, I live only a few hours south of Chris and we also get huge infestations of JBs. And I too have hundreds of acres of crops surrounding me. My only choice is Sevin. I use the liquid version and spot spray on the beetles. This year I got lucky and only had to spray them in my flower garden and on my strawberries which I am done picking for the year. Usually they decimate my corn and grapes first. This year they were eating zinnias and strawberries right and left and mating on the marigolds (don't seem to like to eat the marigolds but they are all over them every year). I started by hand picking them off into a bucket of water and feeding them to the chickens but then it just got to be hundreds and I couldn't hand pick them off anymore (much to the chickens dismay). One application of Sevin and I haven't seen another JB. They were all over at the golf course a few miles from my house though. The past two or three years have not been as bad, but I moved about 6 miles so I may not have had as many larvae in the soil where I moved to. JBs are the only thing I use Sevin for. I also had my husband spray them late in the evening hoping to avoid bees.

My cancer was pretty much thought to be genetic (2 of 3 genetic markers identified, and i was young).

There's plenty of things you can do to help raise your odds on being healthy and avoiding illness, but the long-time health nut Adam Yauch from the Beastie Boys...well, yeah.

My problem with Mike Adams/naturalnews is they're unregulated supplement pill mill dealers that promote fear and have some very ignorant/alarming views on anything government or corporate, all blanket applied.

To the naturalnews crew, our world is in huge danger, but they're being good guys selling us all fake disease preventions/cures made by "who knows" in a factory "who knows where."