The dawn redwood neeeds a purpose for being there to make it look integrated otherwise it will look like an after thought.

Exactly, Isabella. Right now it looks just awful. And it's all naked all winter long, and is my primary view from my dining room and my desk. The Blue Spruce behind it has finally grown enough to provide a bit of a vegatative backdrop, but that Dawn Redwood just sits there in the middle, wondering what to do.

To make matters worse, previous owners surrounded the Dawn Redwood with a circle of heavy granite rocks. They could be useful elsewhere, but they are too heavy for me to move. They had similarly planted a circle of rocks in the front yard and planted an ordinary maple in the middle. I took down the maple and am moving the rocks bit by bit, as I have strength. They are not quite so big.

Isabella, do you or anyone else have suggestions on how I can work with the Dawn Redwood in place? I hate to cut it down.

Rain2Fall

I would love to have a Dawn Redwood! The 'ancient' roots of it appeals to me greatly. Plus I like it's shape, even when 'naked' for the winter. The fact that it is deciduous is part of it's appeal. If I had one, I'd also plant a ginkgo with it, along with ferns and any other primitive-looking plants suitable for the conditions. Add a magnolia - a primitive flowering plant. In your zone, you'd have more options than I would. If a Wollemi pine was ever available retail, I'd certainly add one of those if I could afford it and it was hardy to my zone - there are several at a nearby botanical garden being tested for hardiness. I think a 'primitive' themed garden could be very interesting, both intellectually and artistically. If you have kids, they'd love it I'm sure!

So, post the fricking photo already! ;)

(For those of you who hate the design forum; THIS IS JUST A JOKE. It is a not so subtle reference to another design forum thread and in no way is meant as an insult towards Rain2fall or his redwood.)

But I really would love to see a photo. Seems like part of the problem might be that anything you plant now will never catch up in size enough to the redwood to be proportional or serve to anchor it rather than having it stick out like a sore thumb. I love the "primitive plants" vignette idea, but perhaps those of you outside my area could share how a gingko would grow in proportion to a redwood? Gingkos grow rather slowly here.

Dawn Redwoods also tend to grow rather slowly, at least here in California unless they tap into a high water table. I agree that this post would get more input from me with photos, or slap some labeling onto the diagram so that I don't have to switch back and forth between your description and the unlabeled plan; too much work required on my part for it to get my attention.

I would say that just because something is already there and old doesn't mean it needs to stay, and in my view the Redwood is probably more of an obstruction to a good plan than a benefit. I would also not appreciate the Umbellularia californica tree in my own garden; they are dirty messy greedy surface rooting trees prone to getting lots of sucking insects that then create sooty mold on the leaves, and so densely shading and efficient at sucking up all water in the surface soil that they are difficult to garden under. I prefer to see them in habitat growing next to creeks along with the Coast Live Oaks and Big Leaf Maples, where I don't have to garden around them. I am sure they have more significance further north where they are less common and better appreciated as a relatively winter hardy evergreen broadleaf tree for winter interest, but here in the SF Bay Area, it is most often considered a weed tree, as they volunteer everywhere in local gardens here.

As to the OP's original request for help, I would further define what you want to do with the garden in terms of space and function, and work backwards as to how those functions and their requirements necessitate changes to the garden. If growing more fruit trees and a sunny area for vegetables is important, it would seem you don't have enough clear/large sunny areas not impacted by trees and cast shadows, as well as tree roots impacting what you can easily grow. I'd probably root out the trees that I don't love and/or need too much water to look good and/or get lots of attacking insects when drought stressed(thinking about the white birch in particular here).

Dawn Redwood with its lower branches on can be a bit of a challenge to garden under. Over at the Missouri Botanical Garden they have some kind of bushy grass growing under theirs. If you can think of some shade loving small bushes to plant for contrast around it I think it'll make an excellent focal point.

Do you think lighter or darker small shrubs underneath would work better in your yard?

I tried to fix the drawing. I'd like the front to be welcoming and complement the Victorian character of the house. It get morning sun and some shade from the Green Ash in the parking strip. I'm thinking a double-wide trellis entrance, wider front walk to the porch, and a cottage garden. That means taking out the Mt. Ash and the Birch (both volunteers) and moving most of the roses and putting a walking path to the other areas of the yard.

I'd like a vegetable & fruit tree garden in the back yard with more fruit/nut trees, which means taking down the Hawthorne, which is now about 40-50 feet high, and removing some of the holly hedge, which screens from a too-close neighbor.

On the north Side Yard, I'd like a shady place to sit, a deck, and a kitchen addition, which means taking out the old camellia. Maybe grapes above the deck, for summer shade and fruit, yet winter sun.

The Oregon Myrtle is full grown, about 30 feet high, and a gumdrop shape. It screens from the neighbors. I'm thinking of filling in the corner with blueberries and roses, and a piece of sunny lawn. The Oregon Myrtle isn't very weedy here; the ground underneath is paved with rectangular cement paving blocks.

I'd like a shady area to sit and enjoy a small woodsy area. The Dawn Redwood is about 30 feet high. Perhaps I could add to the Spruce - Dawn Redwood area by planting birches and even another conifer or two? I'm stumped.

Here's my DRAFT "Dream Plan". Will it work?

You might also add where you are in Oregon, so that people would know what climate you are dealing with. A few of the things you propose look good in concept, but I wonder if the deck off the new kitchen is actually wide enough to be functional for other than a pass through area with chairs? If you want to dine out there and entertain, a deck at least 10 feet in width is better proportioned for a table. I personally love Asian Pears, I have a 20th Century in my own garden and it gives great fruit, but they do get big, and give more fruit with full sun exposure. I am not sure blueberry shrubs will compete well with the Umbellularia,

Cottage garden style garden beds are not my personal taste, but I'd suggest you look around your neighborhood for good planting combinations of things that work well in your area. I might recommend looking at the web site for Annie's Annuals here in California for some great photos of cottage garden style plantings, and maybe give you some ideas of color and texture combinations, see www.anniesannuals.com and look at the display garden photos.

Maybe the conifer section of the garden could be supplemented with medium tall woodland shrubs for bloom and fall color underplanted with ferns, and such. Enkianthus, Fothergilla, Stachyurus, Edgeworthia, Stewartia, Rhus typhina, Ribes sanguineum, dwarf Japanese Maples and some Viburnum species all make great woodland plants for fall color. You might also consider some of the smaller growing flowering Magnolia species for spring interest, M. stellata and M.x loebneri are particularly useful as small scale trees/large shrubs here. All sorts of evergreen woodland species native to Oregon as well, with Vacciniums, Mahonias, Woodwardia, in combination with some of your native Vine Maples, Rhododendron occidentale.

I don't really work with the plants and climate you are in, so maybe posting this in the PNW garden forum would also generate comments that are more specific to your area. There are some great nurseries in Oregon as well, I'd recommend a visit to Cistus Nursery in Portland, and Roger Gossler's nursery(forget the name of it) to mention just a few to get some great ideas on Oregon specific planting combinations that are not so ordinary.

I'm in the mid-Willamette Valley. Lots of rain, fairly mild winters. A bit of snow, occasional ice.

WHERE do you think I should plant the tree(s)?color> If I get one or two Ginkos, where should I put them? Or if I get a conifer or two, where? I cannot figure it out.

Woodyoak I like your idea of primitive looking plants. I also love ferns and ginkos! I, too, appreciate the "living fossil" nature of the Dawn Redwood and itÂs lovely green foliage. Where would you put the Ginko? Can you suggest other "primitive-looking" plants? When I think "primitive looking", I think "tropical." I looked up Wollemi Pine, and yes yes! I want one! You can order one from http://www.ancientpine.com/. Unfortunately, it doesnÂt seem hardy below 10 F, so I doubt it would be a good choice here.

Rhodium  I donÂt have kids or dogs and donÂt much care for lawn. I can take it all out, or leave just a little. You suggest that "a long view axis could be created to the right of treee to the far side of the yard"  IÂm not quite sure what this means. Could you expand on that idea?

The Dawn Redwood is about 20-30 feet tall right now, so I think some other tall trees such as Ginko could catch up with it in time. I gather Ginko is supposed to grow about a foot a year; hopefully more here, where thereÂs so much rain. It would give me a green-blue-yellow palette in that area.

Drtygrl  I canÂt imagine what prompted the joke! ;-) And I'm a she. You wanted a photo, and I don't own a camera, so I relied on google:

{{gwi:50598}}

Bahia  I agree that the Dawn Redwood may be more of an obstruction than a benefit. It breaks my heart to think about taking it out, though. Five years ago I asked an arborist to move it; he said it was too big, had soft, fleshy roots, and would cost $2,500. So I left it.

I share your lack of appreciation for Oregon Myrtle (Umbellularia californica). ItÂs not very weedy here, but previous owners paved the area underneath with cement blocks. The city here does not allow tall plantings at an intersection corner, but has made an exception for this tree as long as I prune it high enough to walk underneath. If I take it out, I cannot continue the arborvitae hedge along the fenceline. I want to plant blueberries in front it of to provide more screening, and just in case the city changes its mind and makes me take it out. IÂm worried about the greedy roots that you mention; will blueberries survive, or should I root prune?
Hopefully my revised drawings will answer your questions about space and function. The English Hawthorne will have to come out, but IÂd like to get some more perimeter fruit/nut trees going first.

Cottage gardens are not my favorite, either; but they're quick, cheap, look nice and will turn an overgrown weedy front yard into an inviting scene. They also go well with Victorian houses; mine is a modest Victorian with two front porches and just a bit of gingerbread.

As for the side deck, 7 feet will be plenty. I don't entertain much, and my family and friends can darn well spend some time in the side yard, once I'm done with it.

Thank you for the great list of possible plants. I'm reading and making some tentative suggestions.

Toronado  I think darker small shrubs under the Dawn Redwood would provide a nice contrast with its light green foliage. How about bearberry, Viburnum davidii, ferns, knickinick, salal? What do you think?

My apologies for the looooooong message, but I donÂt know how to post shorter messages in a row.

Rain2Fall

I'm not a big fan of blue spruce after they get to be more than about 10' max., so I'd be inclined to take out the spruce and put a gingko on one side of the Dawn Redwood, but back by the hedge (more or less where the spruce is now) and a magnolia on the other side (maybe one of the yellow ones since they are more unusual), so they'd frame the redwood. I'd make a path that wanders behind/around the redwood starting from the deck area and circling around to link up with the garage path. I'd fill in the area with other 'primitive' plants. Are cycads hardy for you? If they are, I'd certainly add one or two of them in the midst of other ferns. In addition to more conventional-looking ferns, I'd be sure to include some Hart's Tongue ferns (Asplenium scolopendrium) because they particularly look primitive and exotic to me! The buttercup family is considered a primitive one so I'd probably throw some marsh marigolds (Caltha palustris) in with the ferns (but beware - they will seed vigorously...) While I'm not at all sure they're primitive plants, I'd probably add some members of the Arisaema genus, like Jack-in-the-pulpit, because they sure look primitive even if they're not! Moss would be good to encourage - club moss if you could get some would be particularly appropriate.... Waterlilies are primitive plants - maybe some in a tub on the deck would be a nice feature. I've seen the Wollemi pine listed as hardy to zone 7, and I know it's being tested around here too. I don't think they really know yet what its hardiness is. The price is now down to the range where it might be worth taking a shot and seeing how it does. It would be a very interesting (presumably evergreen) plant to have if it does survive! Those are the things that come to mind quickly - there are probably others as well that would be easily turned up with a bit of research but I think, after you've got a base of true 'primitives', you could fill in with whatever else looks/feels appropriate and grows well in your area.

The theme of "primitive plants garden" is intellectually stimulating. Plus, I love ferns and like Ginkos. Magnolias tend to get messy here. One problem with the Dawn Redwood is its deciduous nature, but its placement. I hesitate to add more deciduous to the mix.

How about 2-6 more conifers in the area, starting where the Myrtle is and running past the garage to the edge of the backyard? And including the city parking strip outside my lot; I think I can get the city arborist's agreement to plant there.

Rain2Fall

Why are magnolias messy there? Is the 'mess' the fallen flowers? I love the look - temporary though it may be - of the carpet of flower petals. It's easy to rake them up or chop them with the lawnmower if they are on the lawn. Anything in a garden bed is left to 'compost in place'. I assume the evergreen magnolias would be hardy in your area...? I think one of those would be a nice addition and would ease the concern about adding deciduous trees, although I think a ginkgo is essential in a primitive garden :-) . How about trying a cycad back by the garage near the hedge/fence(?) If you're interested in trying the Wollemi Pine, I'd try to find a place for it somewhere along there too. Clearly there would eventually be space problems fitting in all these trees etc. but, depending on how long you plan to live there and/or your willingness to later edit some things out as they mature, it still might be worth overplanting in the short term just for the interest. Who knows, for instance, how fast the Wollemi Pine will grow or how big it will ultimately get - none have ever grown to anything close to maturity yet in North American conditions and it will be probably a generation before anyone can say for sure how it will perform!

For additional evergreen interest, I'd be inclined to add interesting broad-leafed evergreen shrubs that have large/unsual foliage, whether or not they are technically 'primitive'. I think they would fit in well in a primitive-themed garden. Since there are more that are hardy for you than me, you would have a better idea of what is available/suitable for your area. Conifers are more primitive trees than deciduous ones so some conifers are appropriate - but I'd be inclined to go for something more interesting than run-of-the-mill blue spruce! Your birch tree(s) are actually quite appropriate since trees with catkin flowers are the more primitive lines of deciduous trees.

There are several evergreen ferns (e.g. Dryopteris wallichiana or the smaller Cyrtomium falcatum) so it would be easy to add ferns that would give winter interest. Tuck the deciduous things like the Jack-in-the-pulpit into the fern areas so they could disappear quietly for the winter. I'm not sure of the 'age' of hellebores but they strike me as something that would fit comfortably into a primitive-themed garden and would be a nice addition to a ferny area.

Have fun playing with ideas!

Here's the thing. A new tree costs about $60, more or less depending on what size you buy. If the dawn redwood is in the wrong place but you love it, cut down the one you have and put up a new one.

Keep in mind this gets to be a BIG tree and if it's placement is awkward now, it will only get more so. The question I would ask yourself about it is "if not now, then when?"

As for the back yard, I would basically say that the plans you have for an orchard are incompatible with the big hawthorne. It's not helping the veggie bed either if I understand the plan correctly. Even valuable shade trees need replacement eventually. I personally like to make those decisions on a staggered schedule so not everything is exposed at once. If you wait until it all has to go, you go from one extreme to the other.

Bottom line is that you have some choices to make about how you use the property today, and either you make them, or you let the people who planted these trees in awkward places reach out from the past and make them for you. (and if that was you, you get to either correct your mistakes or keep making imperfect decisions to work around them).

KarinL

I'm not the sharpest tool for compass orientation, but it appears that you have large trees to the S and W of your intended sunny garden. That doesn't work in my yard. So if you are really sketching out your ideal, you would spend a bit of time on the directions of sun and shade and where things go for that.

Usually I have to think in terms of protecting my sunny areas by keeping anything with significant height or leaf canopy to the N of them. So you'd actually place your veggie garden to the S and W of any large shade trees so the shade is thrown away from the garden--or have something for shade near the house to shade the house and open up something farther out in the yard. I may be playing it too strictly, because it depends on height and distance as to the area of shade created, and I can't tell all that.

Once established if liking the spot a dawn redwood could grow large quickly, like other redwoods it is not inherently a slow-growing tree at all. That's partly how they reach enormous sizes: in addition to being very long-lived they grow rapidly for perhaps centuries.

Oregon myrtle often becomes a large gumdrop of a tree with a thick trunk on a suitable site. 30' is not fully grown for one of these.

Take some walks around the Hoyt Arboretum in Washington Park to get better acquainted with an assortment of trees and how they may look in your region. There is also the Timber Press book on Portland trees.

Here's some records from a little farther north, to give you a better idea of the true character of what you have.

Dawn Redwood

Stem circumference: 11'7"
Height: 67'
Average crown spread: 41'
Date Measured: 1993
Location: Lakewood, Lakewold Gardens

Oregon Myrtle

Stem circumference: 15'7"
Height: 53'
Average crown spread: 60'
Date measured: 1993
Location: Vancouver, 3409 Main St.

Source: Van Pelt, Champion Trees of Washington State (1996, University of Washington, Seattle)

The diameter of a tree trunk is often roughly 1/3 the circumference. So, the above trees could have been approximately 3' in the first case and 5'+ thick in the second when measured.

Hello Rain2fall, I have the wisteria seeds. Did you still want a few seeds?