Sorry, dimensions should read "100cmx60cmx30cm"...

Can you find pine fines there?

Because I have never been able to lay hands on them in any of the several places I've lived over the last 10 years or so.

Each time I think I am about to lay hands on them, the source evaporates. I think I am chasing a Will-o-the-Wisp!

When I first heard about growing plants in mostly pine or fir bark I was also skeptical about it. Everyone I knew grew in peat based soils. The more I read about bark soils the more sense it made, so I tried it.

I've had much better luck growing trees in 5-1-1 than in peat, but many people I know do not or will not try bark soils.

In my opinion I would try a good 5-1-1 mix and see the result for yourself. If you can't find bark, or just don't like the result, you can always go back to using peat based soils. Just be sure to get the right bark and fertilizer, and be sure to add lime.

Good luck.

TYG

Every nursery I know that grows plants in this area uses a bark based mix. i do not understand the resistance. Calistoga Al

I started growing in the gritty & 5:1:1 mix back in the 80s. It worked so well I started sharing info about the results here @ GW around 2004 or so. Since then, a lot of growers have gone through a great deal of effort to put the soils down. Very often the reason is, they don't like my directness when it comes to pointing out comments or suggestions that can't be supported by science, or the fact that I've pointed out holes in logic when disagreeing with someone's ideas. IOW, because they don't like me, the soil can't be a good idea. Also, most of the people you find dissing the soils haven't used it, and their 'complaints' re the soils clearly illuminate the fact they haven't taken the time to understand the concept the soils embody, which is much more important than following the basic recipes offered. Another big reason the soils get dissed is because many people are lazy or have ordered their priorities such that they have no time to expend the effort it takes to locate the ingredients. Most people simply can't think in terms that point to the fact they would almost certainly have a better growing experience if they were willing to make the effort to ensure a healthy home for roots, so they crap on the soils and spread the word that they're too much work for no return.

I've been helping others with their container issues for so long, it's very easy for me to see which of the 3 camps the person is from when they claim the soils won't work. In August, a grower was complaining loudly about how poorly her plants performed in the gritty mix. I remembered a comment she'd made on another thread a few weeks before, where her praises of the soil were absolutely glowing. The turning point was, her husband told her the ingredients were too heavy & too much work to mix, so if she wanted to use the soil, she'd have to make it herself. At that point, the soil changed from something she praised to the heavens to the worst thing she ever had her plants in.

We KNOW that perched water/soggy soils are limiting - that the lack of O2 in the root zone that occurs when spaces between soil particles are filled with water instead of air is the reason a huge % of growers need help with their growing issues. You simply can't argue against the fact that gaining an understanding of why creating soils that reduce the impact of the anaerobic conditions that limit soo many plantings is probably the largest step forward a container gardener can take.

I get off on helping others get all they can from the growing experience, and I tell the truth when it comes to laying out all the positives and negatives associated with different soils. IOW - I don't gloss over or embellish any aspects of the soils I discuss, whether they're the 5:1:1 or gritty mix, or any other soil that's homemade or commercially prepared. I judiciously guard my credibility where many others willingly sacrifice theirs in their efforts to con the unsuspecting grower in need of help into believing something that puts an excellent soil in a less than favorable light. I don't usually tell that type of person what I think of their tactics in a direct manner, but I do try to find a way to illustrate what is actually most important to the naysayer - and in an extremely high % of cases it's anything BUT the success of the grower who most needs help.

If someone says the gritty mix or the 5:1:1 mix won't work, simply ask them why. There isn't even a need to point to the thousands of growers who use these soils successfully every day to illustrate there is some thing more than your best interest in play.

That's the view from here. If you have specific questions, just ask. Odds are, I've answered any questions you might ask, and can explain my answers using nothing but sound science and logic.

Don't let someone who has never tried something prevent you from moving forward. In one way, growers are like plants, in that a plant or a grower that isn't growing is dying. Learn all you can from who you consider to be the most reliable sources. A green thumb comes fastest by not relying on experience as a teacher. Gain as much knowledge as you can, and then use your experience as a way to justify those things you've already learned. With that as your plan, you'll leave naysayers who depend on getting bit on the butt ('experience') as their teacher, standing in your slipstream.

Al

That was a great post Al. Thanks for sharing it. As you mentioned, many people simply do not believe it's possible to grow container plants in anything but peat and perlite soil mixes. The vast majority of people I know use only bagged soils. When I tell them about either 5-1-1 or gritty mix they simply have no idea or concept that plants can grow in such mixes.

As Calistoga Al mentioned, many of the better nurseries have been using bark mixes for years.

rookieroofgardener, I still suggest that you try making a small batch or two of 5-1-1 and give it a try for yourself. That's how I started, and I'm glad I did.

TYG

Al, I have a lot of respect for the work that you have put into developing and sharing your mixes - but putting down those of us who have such trouble finding the actual ingredients as "lazy" is really unfair, as well as unkind.

I don't drive, and haven't for over 7 years. I can't go running all over town hunting something up. If I can't find it at Valdemart, Home Despot, or Lows (see how cleverly I left the E out of that), I generally can't have it, because I can't have people driving me all over creation for weeks or months on end hunting the elusive butterfly of mulch.

I'm also not very physically strong any more. The weight of gritty mix and how difficult it makes it for some of us to move it or the pots it is in is a viable concern for some of us. It's not that we're lazy or that we have our priorities wrong somehow.

It's not your fault that some of this stuff is so hard to find, but please don't make it ours, either. It pretty much takes all the pleasure out of thinking I may finally have found a source for pine fines, after hunting the stuff off and on for almost 10 years.

Lighten up. It's quite a leap to suggest I was being critical of someone because they can't find ingredients to make a soil, or that they might be physically unable. Scheesch - that's not my MO in any WSoF. What made you make THAT leap?

I was very clear in qualifying what I said, even used an actual example of what I meant so no one would misunderstand my meaningh ..... and if you've read many of my posts you should be able to see I would never disparage you or anyone else for not making a soil because you can't find ingredients are or physically limited in what you're able to do. My point was, almost all of the negativity aimed at the soils a lot of us use comes from people who have never used it, who take it upon themselves to decide for everyone that it's too much work to make it for too little reward, or people who simply don't like me. I don't care who chooses to use it or how anyone orders their priorities, that's not for me to decide; but when they invent chimerical flaws in the soil that don't exist or stretch the truth into grossly exaggerated shapes so they can get their axe ground, it should be pointed out what's going on.

Nowhere did I say anything about folks who can't find what they need to make the soils or people limited in their ability to do anything other than light lifting, and I really can't see how you arrived at the conclusion that I did. How I operate is quite the opposite of what you suggest. I regularly go a long way out of my way to help others who can't make their own soils - you can ask anyone who knows me whether or not I'm stretching the truth on that one.

BTW - when I used the word "lazy", it was used to describe more than growers who actually ARE too lazy to make the effort to build their own soils. I went further in qualifying it to only include those who would intentionally disparage the soils (w/o reason and w/o actually ever using them). Sort of like the fox and the grapes. I want it - but since I can't have it (won't go through the work of attaining it), I'll find ways to disparage it.

Al

Hi Rookie,

It's simple enough to try. There's no plant that you can't rescue out of peat or 5-1-1 should you need to, but it's a huge learning experience. HUGE!

It helps you really understand a lot about plants, roots, soil and nutrients. Like I've told Al before, after using gritty mix and 5-1-1 the way he explained, it has made me into a much more adept gardener. It's not nothing will ever go wrong; it's that when it does, you begin to "get" where you may have gone wrong.

So if what others are saying is making you nervous, then go half and half. What others think means squat when your plants outdo theirs. I'd bet you'll be repotting the peat stuff by early spring. I repotted everything within weeks, lol. :-)

A rooftop terrace sounds lovely in any case.

Grace

Another big reason the soils get dissed is because many people are lazy or have ordered their priorities such that they have no time to expend the effort it takes to locate the ingredients. Most people simply can't think in terms that point to the fact they would almost certainly have a better growing experience if they were willing to make the effort to ensure a healthy home for roots, so they crap on the soils and spread the word that they're too much work for no return.

That's where you said it, Al. And you've said it before. Not often, I'll grant you, but more often of late than in years past.

Nodoby's "crapping" on the soils. Although that would be one method of fertilization.

But not being able to find the stuff is a real impediment to more people trying it out.

So let's all lighten up. It would be nice to be able to have an actual discussion about different potting mixtures and modifications of the "popular" mixes on this forum without having accusations of laziness and stupidity thrown about.

Not to mention - not that I've ever seen Al do this - Heaving The Hammer of Heresy At Those Who Dare To Question the Gritty Mix. (or the 5:1:1 for that matter)

Right now I'm on my way to find out whether or not I've finally found the Holy Grail of mulches. Keeping my fingers crossed ...

Hello everyone!!

I think everyone should remember that it does take time to invest in what is best for our plants and trees. Your time and patience in finding the items can be a challenge at times, but Al also has given others that can't find all of the ingredients other ways of making a better mix with what items we can find.. I do understand the frustration. Believe me. When I first started, I couldn't find the fines. But they were available after I just looked online and listened to people and searched. They are available, I just wasn't looking in the right place... At Home Depot they had soil conditioner which was perfect for the 5-1-1.

Once you use the Gritty and or the 5-1-1. You will understand why it works.. I have been using this method for many years now and I would like the OP to give it a try. It's worth the effort and if you listened to the ( naysayers) all of the time, we would all still be using bagged soil because its easy and the manufacturers just want us to buy , discard and use again. It's all about money.. Making it yourself once you find the items, it really is easy to make my mix the way I like for all of my plants.

Grace is right.. It is a learning experience and if you are willing to understand and give it a try, I think you will be happy. But it is up to everyone to make up their minds if they want to understand the science and see the benefits that your plants will give back.

I think Al has been able to help so many people .. Others that can't find certain items so they can adjust or substitute items to make a better mix. If anything.. He has always been willing to go out of his way to help people find items. So.. Thank you Al. You have tried to help and it will take some action on our parts to find what we need.

I just want the OP to just think for yourself ... Don't let others sway you just because.. Try it.. You can always go back to what ever you were using. I bet you will see improvement over time and never turn back!! ;-)

No one was ever called lazy and it is in the best interest to just try and do your best. If you can't find what you need, adjust and you can make a mix using a peat based mix, perlite and bark or fir bark. It's just about making your soil or mix lighter so there is more aeration for the health of your roots.
It is about the changing of heavy peat based mix that our roots suffer in.

Lets give credit to the OP for posting.. I'm glad you did. Sometimes it takes only one to start the new path. " way to go..."

You all take care!!!

Laura

Man - I didn't call anyone lazy or disparage anyone .... or criticize you or anyone for not being able to find something. I might lack sensitivity for people who intentionally annoy me, but I think I'm pretty invested here at GW and in the growing community in general, doing all I can to ensure the growing experience of anyone who needs or asks for help is as rewarding as it can be.

I defined the primary motivations of most growers who find fault with these soils ..... and you're right - I hardly ever do that, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to speak the truth as I perceive it - especially when there is obviously no ill intent toward an individual. There isn't even a disguised jab at an individual anywhere to be found. If you can find any error or untruth in anything I said - point to it. I didn't say or imply that anyone on this thread or any other particular thread was crapping on the soils, but it does happen regularly, and the reason is rarely because of any form of charity in the heart toward other posters in need of help. It's not difficult to tell when someone is looking for an excuse to be intentionally aggravating. It happens to all of us, but to some of us more so than others.

Edited to thank Laura for the kind words (I was preparing a post as you were), and to ask her if she remembers how she first found PBFs in VA? Did you get any sense of being disparaged when you related your difficulty/frustration in finding PBFs? ;-)

Edited further to say - Sorry for the cross talk, RRG. Obviously these soils are quite different from the types of media the people you've been talking to are familiar with. If you have access to ingredients you can use to embody the concept soils like the 5:1:1 mix and the gritty mix are based on, it would probably be in your best interest to put more faith in the value placed on the soils by growers who have actually used them than by someone who laughs at them for no reason other than their being unfamiliar with a concept anyone can use to add to their growing skill set.

I hope you fare well.

Al

This post was edited by tapla on Fri, Oct 3, 14 at 22:02

Thank you all so much for your advice particularly Al. Sorry that it led to a few misunderstandings, but its heartening to see how passionately you all feel about gardening and I can't wait to get started. I was just about to give up and head down to the garden centre for some ready made potting mix when I got these great replies, so I'm back on track, the 5:1:1 way. I have managed to find one company in the UK supplying pine bark fines. Its trade only but luckily I've managed to find one of their suppliers who will sell it to me...here's a link... http://www.william-sinclair.co.uk/commercial/ornamentalhorticulture/products/compostadditives/bark. Having spoken to Sinclair's tech people, they still recommend upping the peat to something like a 4:2:2 ratio, with added SRL, lime and calcium nitrate. Their point is that it won't otherwise hold enough water, which given that I live in a country on the wet side seems odd! I'll let you know how I get on...

Remember there is a threshold level of coarse material that should be met if you want to get the benefits from the added aeration/ drainage/ reduced volume and level of perched water. The +s that we realize from keeping the fine material at a fraction small enough to ensure it can't fill the large pores between the coarse material go away once there is enough fine material to fill those pores. At that point, you might as well skip the extra effort and grow in a peat-based mix.

Grower A and grower B will rarely agree if one approaches growing with the objective of making it easiest on the grower while the other is focused on what's best for the plant. The 5:1:1 definitely holds enough water to make plants and the grower focused on what's best for plants happy, but it may not hold enough water to satisfy those with a different approach to growing. It took me a very long time to realize that discussing the same soil from differing viewpoints is bound to lead to disagreement. I think the guys you're talking to are probably more focused on how often they think you'll need to water than the soil's potential to make it easier for you to consistently bring along healthy plants.

Take care.

Al

One more note....

Not only are you teaching the plants that they can actually breath and grow the way they should without any limiting factors, but you will also learn more about how to bring them ( grow ) them to their best ability !

Learning how to water will come with experience. It isn't as difficult as others might say....use the wooden skewer method. Ask questions....

Al, mentioned above about how I had difficultly when I first started. He actually made calls around my area helping me find the bark I needed until i could figure out how I could find them myself. He will and has gone out of his way for many....

For that I thank you, Al Without you and your knowledge and guidance I don't have a clue where I would be... Probably still in the bagged section at the big box stores.

For this, I just want to say ..... " thank you ". ;-)

Have fun...

Laura

As always, thank you for being so generous with the kind words, Laura.

Al

It would be nice to be able to have an actual discussion about different potting mixtures and modifications of the "popular" mixes on this forum without having accusations of laziness and stupidity thrown about.

Well I would love to also, but it doesn't happen here. Suggest anything else and the name calling starts.
I have found when one cannot support their argument with facts, they resort to name calling, So true here. I have to laugh at many comments in other GW forums about this forum. Hilarious!
I love using bark, but the 5-1-1 is too dry for me. To each his own. All gardening is local, so your mileage may vary. It also depends on what plants, or what pots you use. For example I mostly use clay or fabric. I don't like plastic that much. I keep hearing about roots not breathing, well try clay pots dude! Fabric is awesome, I like it a lot. Better than clay.

Really Drew? I find that in all the threads you participate in, on this forum, you're far more interested in producing heat than light. You just can't seem to help yourself when it comes to getting your jabs in.

Do you remember how long it took us to convince you that the advertising hype on the outside of a package or on a website that was selling something wasn't the science needed to support your contentions? It's interesting too, how readily you change your POV. There is no consistency in the things you say because you're to busy sacrificing your credibility for the sake of those jabs. People DO see through that.

Al