I don't think its the bark per se, since all the rest of your plants are doing ok. I think this one pot is not draining properly for some reason. That discoloring of the leaves is typical of overwatering. It's called chlorosis.

I had this exact problem this summer in a Jasmine plant after we moved. It turned out that the person I bought the plant from had stuck the plant in common garden dirt and then sprinkled a 3" layer of good potting mix on top. When I moved from the Midwest where watering requirements were moderate to the arid West, in order to keep the top layer moist looking that bottom layer of garden muck was waterlogged and hanging on to every drop like a mother. So while the plant looked bone dry on top, it was actually swimming in muck down below.

I know this isn't SUPPOSED to happen with Al's mix, but somehow it seems to have happened anyway in just that one pot. Did you screen the bark? Maybe there are too many dusty bits just in that one pot?

I would repot it immediately in fresh mix or even a store bought potting media while you work on figuring out what may have gone wrong with your mix. It should start greening back up almost immediately if its an overwatering problem.

You might be able to test this in the pot its in by poking a wick up into the soil from the bottom and seeing if you can wick excess water out of your pot. Poke it up in there about halfway the depth of the pot with a pencil, knitting needle, or chopstick, and see what happens. If that doesn't make an obvious improvement in a day or two, try repotting it in something known-good while you work on your mix-ology.

PS - just checking - but there IS a drainage hole (or 2 or 3) in this pot, right? And it isn't blocked? Just in case ...

Any chance that an animal urinated in the container?

I've never had an ammonia issue, and I've used Greenall almost exclusively.

No fish emulsion being used?

Josh

Sugi : I've never heard of anything like this before when using gritty or 5-1-1 soil mixes. Very strange indeed. If you place some of the bark in a container and wet it down do you get an ammonia smell ?

TYG

Actually the ammonia smell is not uncommon when overwatering has caused the potting medium to fall into anaerobic conditions. Something is causing that one pot not to drain properly so your plant is not getting enough air in the root area.

Just repot it into something known good and then we can work on what happened. The plant won't be happy until its roots can "breathe" again. Did the media get hot?

EDIT: DUH! So much for my reading comprehension. You've already repotted it - how long ago was that and how is it doing now? It should have perked up almost immediately.

Did you repot it in commercial SOIL or a soil-less commercial mix? The latter is much better.

Tell us about the pot it was in. Something must have been interfering with drainage, either in the mix or something about the pot.

EDITED EDIT: You didn't happen to use any blood meal or something like that? It could be nitrification instead of ammonification ... did you use a high nitrogen additive, perchance?

My money's still on failure to drain. I don't think nitrification will result in plant chlorosis. Might cook the roots, though.

This post was edited by zensojourner on Mon, Sep 29, 14 at 12:14

Grace:

Sorry I misunderstood the problem. I thought you meant the bark itself smelled like ammonia. Now that I re-read your post and zensojourner's posts I realize that it was not the bark but rather the plant and drainage problem causing that smell.

My apology. I had no idea how pine or fir bark could smell like ammonia.

TYG

Hi guys -

Thanks for the input.

I didn't realize the onset of chlorosis would look this instantly yellow; I guess I've watched too many gardenias becoming chlorotic where there's more veining before full-on yellow.

Hmmm... I may have fertilized it with fish emulsion about a week ago while doing the herbs, Josh. I'm not certain I actually did this one -- but it's plausible. That said, this has been yellowing like this for about 3 weeks or so....though perhaps my using fish emulsion didn't help? I believe I did the same thing with all of my peppers two years ago...was I not supposed to? :)

And...
I did use a good sprinkle of bone meal in it while mixing it up, Zen. Is that a problem? I did that for quite a few batches...and again, not certain if this was one of those batches but I have been using it.

Hmm, I did all kinds of things wrong, lol....

TYG: it very well may be the bark that is stinking. I'd have no idea because even when I dig it up -- it all smells like it now.

Regarding the pot, it's a standard black, plain nursery pot with 3 drainage holes. I drilled in one more at the bottom center as the three are on the bottom edges.

And as for watering, it's not watered any more or less than the others -- and that's the part I find weird. If it's the fish emulsion or the bone meal -- then that could make sense. I very well may have fertilized it with fish emulsion, and perhaps this pot is full of the random soil concoctions where I did use the bone meal. Then it would make sense that this, but not the other pots, are stinking to high heaven. I ran out there right now to see if the other pots with herbs that DID get fish emulsion were smelly, too....and they smell fine/clean.

So, chuck the soil in this pot? I don't know whether nitrification is any better than ammonification...haha.

Oh, and yes, I did repot it and the photo above was the after shot. It's in Roots Organic soil -- peat-based soil that appears to be quite popular with the 420 crowd and nobody else (and I just happened upon that while I was researching the soil, to be clear lol), and additional perlite....I'd guess about 1 part perlite to 3-4 parts soil (that already has perlite). I just tossed it in there in hopes of keeping it as plain as possible and getting it out of what smelled like a flammable pot, lol.

Grace

OMG there's coco fiber in that. I've long heard about problems with coir/coco fiber and just today came across a link to a study. Let me see if I can find it again...

Here it is

It was mentioned in another gardenweb posting I read today but I have no idea which one. They don't track my posts on this forum and I'm always losing threads I meant to follow.

Anyway apparently some coco fiber really does have demonstrably horrible effects on plants, while only one of the types they tested had only sort of "normally" detrimental effects. This was a study of 100% coir; I would expect less damage from mixes that use coir as a small percentage of the mix.

I have no idea what the 420 crowd is or why they like this mix, but personally I'm avoiding coir totally unless and until somebody figures out what makes one different from the other and comes up with a way for it to perform no worse than peat.

If it were me, I'd dump the bag and get something more plebian like Miracle Gro, or one of the other common commercial brands. I know MG gets a bad rap around here - but I've been using it off and on for decades and while it is not the product it was decades ago, at least there's no coir in the regular potting mix. There IS coir in the Moisture Control mix, which I did accidentally buy a bag of recently. But it is at least 50% peat, with the rest being perlite and coir so ... apparently not enough coir to seriously upset my plants. But I've mostly used it for transplants. I have ONE house plant in it and I will be repotting that after its recovered from its last transplant. Probably in a few months. Its recovered from the chlorosis and has bushed out and is actually blooming now for the first time since the move.

Anyway. It doesn't have to be MG, just any bagged potting soil that has no coir in it. I just can't remember any other brands off the top of my head. Or make your own sans the bark, I'd go 2:1 peat and COARSE perlite.

If it took 3 weeks to get that yellow, that's not really that fast. I didn't notice any veining with my jasmine, either. At this point I'm just sure its chlorosis. How long has it been repotted? If its been more than a week and its still that yellow, there is still a problem.

Pop it out of its current pot and wash as much of the soil off the root ball as you can with a garden hose and repot it into regular MG or equivalent, no-coir, soil-less potting mix.

And no, bone meal is fine - but if you made 5-1-1 as directed you shouldn't need any more additives. Stick with non-organic balanced fertilizers. I'm an organic gardener from way way WAY back - inherited it from my dad who was born in 1919. But you have to be realistic and understand that container growing is not anything approaching natural, and what works in the open garden can stunt, damage, and even kill your container plants. I don't remember off the top of my head what the recommended fertilization schedule is for plants in a 5-1-1 mix, but its in those threads. Some kind of foliar, and in all cases liquid type fertilizers.

That said, bone meal isn't the culprit here. The fish emulsion could be, that's usually high-N and could have thrown the balance that badly off under just the right (or wrong) circumstances.

BLOOD meal is high-N and could have caused similar problems but you didn't use that.

And yes, I would discard that potting mix. It should be ok to compost it but don't try to use it to pot anything else.

If we can pin this on the fish emulsion or other additives, you could go ahead and repot it in your existing 5-1-1. You might want to wait awhile to let it recover from the chlorosis and the repot - but if it hasn't started greening up after a week of being repotted, there is still a problem. 10 days at the outset and then I'd repot again if there's been no improvement, no matter what. Wash as much as you can of the old potting mixes off the rootball first.

It is weird, but I disagree with the assessment organic doesn't work well in pots. It works great in pots. The dead mixes are losing popularity and a shift to living mixes is happening. Results are the bottom line. Almost all high end products are now organic for potting soil. Compost has been found to reduce root rot. I always liked Farmer Fred's radio show and his rules for gardening. Rule ten is
"everything you know is wrong"
Seems to happen in gardening all the time, rather funny, and confusing.
http://horttech.ashspublications.org/content/15/1/61.full.pdf

If you're going to use organic fertilizers, you should have compost in the soil mixes. No doubt this not only makes plants grow better than dead mixes, it also suppresses disease in roots. Also consider adding bacteria and fungi yourself. Once introduced they stay. Even if they all die, they can be restored with a few hours. Bacteria can produce as many as 1 million generations in 24 hours.
Spores cannot be killed by dry soil or heat, they will repopulate soil in no time. Also the products are dirt cheap, pun intended. I add them monthly just to make sure populations are high.
It seems to me you are having a root rot problems and this is one known way to fix it.
Plants have for billions of years grown in compost, are genetically programmed to do so. Pots are not that artificial and actually mimic many natural situations.
The idea using artificial means to feed are better are ludicrous and that of course is being discovered as time goes on. Plants can absorb large organic molecules easily. many systemic pesticides are huge molecules. So the statement that chemical is the same form as organic, that organic breaks down to be just like chemical, does happen, but plants can break the molecules themselves and absorb large nutritious organic molecules, as found in organic fertilizers. Besides the fact that the breakdown of large organic molecules creates a very positive environment for plants. producing antibiotics, increasing competition of nutrients pathogens use, etc.

Zens thanks for that study on coir, man I have used it, but not anymore! The study is over 10 years old though, the might have fixed the problem? Still I'll stick to peat!

The Brits know how to garden, best gardens in the world!
http://www.hillsidenurserycentre.com/westland-indoor-plant-compost-10l-2683-p.asp

This post was edited by Drew51 on Mon, Nov 3, 14 at 23:47

Sadly the reason so many "high end products" are organic has more to do with boutique marketing than actual success.

Which, btw, is another problem. For those of us straggling along on fixed incomes, we can't afford most of the "organic products" being touted at the high end. Going organic should not be so expensive!

But anyway. I can only speak for the results as I or friends/acquaintances have experienced them, and for us - not one of us had long term success trying to go all-organic with container growing. We've all experienced some short term successes - but in the long haul, soiless mixes and balanced fertilizers win out every time.

Oh the hours spent sterilizing compost - after the weeks spent trying to clean insect infestations that came in with the unsterilized compost out of our other plants! And then the guilt over "killing" the compost by sterilizing it. Sometimes you can't win.

It has made many of us unbelievably sad.

If it is working for you, I salute you. But this old organic soldier done retired. I keep my organics in the dirt outside of my containers and houseplants, LOL! Frankly I haven't got enough compost these days for the garden, there's none leftover for containers.

A couple of points:

Ammonia will be generated under anaerobic conditions, such as in the bottom of a waterlogged container.

The smell of ammonia will be much more pronounced at higher pH.

Fish emulsion is high in N and could increase the potential for ammonia generation.

In general, we advise folks not to use Fish emulsion if temps are under 55F, as the unused emulsion could create ammonia if sitting in the container. However, I didn't think it was that cold yet?

Josh

It has been down in the low 40's at night here. But I don't know about zone 9 - or the OPs particular zone 9, LOL!

Zen,
I didn't even know this was coir, haha. I was looking for ProMix and he said this was better and bam -- Id heard of it so I bought it.

But honestly, I'm not against coconut coir; one of my favorite soils is by Gardner and Bloome, based wholly on coir. Some of my older pots are 5-1-1 based on that soil and I don't have any issues. Really it's such a small part of 5-1-1, I could probably use cotton balls and it'd work. But yes, generally, I like peat in 5-1-1 indoors because it seems to dry quicker than coir. Outdoors, it buys me an extra day when necessary, it seems. I've run out anyway and now have more Promix HP again. All is well again.

Drew, I see what you're saying. Perhaps it does work with compost, but containers in and of themselves are kind of unnatural, too, no? Organic, in terms of not using harmful pesticides, is important to me, but if my sansevieria or columbine happen to grow in non-soil medium and are fed nutrients via my hand, I'm okay with that, too. I have mycorrhizae in the soil with Promix, and as you can see, I throw lots of stuff in the soil, haha.

Josh, I must have missed this 55* stuff. Total oversight. I'm in Stockton and I doubt we went below 55 though I did wake up to 58 one day last week. This weekend, it's back in the 90s. I guess as a rule I will leave the organic stuff out. I really don't fertilize a lot, and just wanted to boost the soil a bit.

DFish, I guess it's possible that pot just isn't draining well. I think I'll drill more holes in it before I attempt the pot again with new soil.

Thank you!

Stockton? Yeah, you're fine! Plenty warm down there still.
Must have just been some fluke - a combination of drainage issues, and who knows what else.

Josh

Sugi, I'm not "against" coir per se. I've just seen test results that show hugely varying results with it, mostly of the abysmal nature, and none as good as your typical peaty blend.

I know a grower in Hawaii however who grows almost entirely in coir or coir mixes.

I'm just sayin', *I* wouldn't risk it. Until I find evidence to the contrary the safest thing is to avoid it, for me. Plus, its actually more expensive than anything else I'd be using anyway - so the motivation to dig into the issue isn't that great.

That said, I haven't noticed any detrimental effects from the part-coir Miracle Gro Moisture Control mix I accidentally bought a few months ago. But I go out of my way to avoid it when I can anyway, just to be on the safe side.

I'm hoping that I will have a source of pine fines by tonight. I have to go see the stuff and make sure it is what I think it is before I'll know for sure.

Honestly, if I could still get coarse vermiculite, I'd probably stick with my potting mix from days of yore, given it was actually a seedling mix that I used for transplants.

But I can't, and I am, in my old age, developing more of an interest in house plants and indoor growing than I had in the past, which means a longer lasting medium than peat+vermiculite is in order anyway.

So ... we'll see if I've finally found the Holy Grail of mulch or not.

Here is a link that might be useful: Problems with coir potting mixes

Hmm. More than the growth (or lack thereof), the yellowing of the coir plants is most interesting. My fuschia was the only plant I noticed this in over the last two years or so where I have occasionally used coir as the soil source in 5-1-1, and while it's shown incremental improvement in the Roots Organic plus perlite only soil it's now in, the study kind of makes me wonder.

Very interesting.

Thank for sharing, Zen!

Thought I'd update just to say that almost all of the pots with the Roots Organic soil in it are now smelling of ammonia -- some more than others, but it's all there. So, in the process of repotting all of it -- I noticed that some, like the opuntia I have, are doing really, really well in it. I pullled one up to begin the repotting when I noticed huge, thick and white NEW roots all over, so I put it right back. Who am I to say ammonia is no good for the plants...I'll wait and see on that one.

The fuschia that started it all was doing "okay" -- not great. The old growth had greened up some but the new growth that was completely yellow were still quite yellow. Plucked that out and put it into a small pot with Promix until I figure out what I plan to do with it.

I guess that satisfies my curiosity about Roots Organic, though I'm not ready to throw out all coir entirely. I still recall the Eden Valley soil to be most excellent...though I haven't been able to find it anywhere since.

Did you find the Holy Grail?

Really is so odd. The other day I said that the opuntia was doing too well for me to repot that...but I did repot the others. Last remaining was my not really prickly prickly pear, lol...and pulling that out, in two plus weeks, the new roots are beautiful!

Strange that despite such ammonia stink, some of these plants are loving it. The majority didn't have this new growth except the cacti-types...

Interesting!

Sugi : I've never heard of anything like this before when using gritty or 5-1-1 soil mixes. Very strange indeed. If you place some of the bark in a container and wet it down do you get an ammonia smell ?

TYG