charliedawg,
Where does that door (downstairs) go? Is access to the kitchen upstairs? What direction does this face? You're in KY, right? Do you like to garden? Or is garden maintenance a chore for you?

I could see a stone patio under the deck with a swing and lots of shade loving hanging planters :))

I don't really see any barriers to you designing this space any way you'd like. As the heading for this forum suggests, the point is not to provide a free on line design service, but to discuss the technical and aesthetic issues involved in landscaping. This looks like a great space in which you'll deserve to chill, having gotten the house designed and built.

If your only "issue" is a lack of ideas, then some books or a consultant are your best approaches.

KarinL

Zone 8, the door downstairs goes into the basement which will eventually be our entertainment/ game room area. Access to the kitchen is upstairs, I like to garden but I don't love it. The back of the house faces NE. It is shaded 1/2 a day back there. I like the idea of a swing, I'm definitely going to get one.

Karin, thanks for clarifying. I do believe I may have misunderstood the purpose of this forum.

Reguarding my total lack of ideas, do you have any suggestions for good landscaping books. There are so many out there that it's hard for a lay person to pick just 1 or 2.

Also, (I'm hoping this is the right question for this forum) Does anyone have any suggestions for any kind of plant that will grow in solid, red clay???

Scroll down the page to find a thread titled 'Book recommendations for beginners'. Keep scrolling down, and you will find a search box. Type 'books' in the box and click search, and you will find many other threads, including 'Book for clay soil plantings'.

It pays to learn how to help yourself around here -- this is one of the grumpier forums. Chock full of great info, but not at all into hand-holding. (Never ever try to get them started on a singalong).

Best of luck with your landscaping, you have a wonderful slate.

-VW

LOL! No comment.

We have almost the same exact configuration off the back of our house, which is built into a slope. Just from my own experience, I can tell you that you probably want to keep it simple. The deck may be a lovely destination that will often be used, but because it's so high off the ground, it doesn't transition well to the area below it. I assume your dining area is on the top floor. Do you really want to haul food up and down those stairs? Is there any way to keep the grill on the deck? Functionally, that's where I would want it.

Well, our old house had a lookout basement with a deck off of the kitchen, so I have a few thoughts to share that may be relevent:

First - the deck will tend to feel much more like an extension of the house than part of the yard, since it is so high off the ground. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but if you want a space for hanging out that feels like you are part of the yard, you'll probably want a nice patio space as well.

The patio under the deck will probably be pretty shady - a nice retreat when it is hot, but I'd probably want patio somewhere else that will get sun, as well.

Are you going to grill and then eat outside, or grill to bring back inside? That will help you make that decision. Remember you have a fire hazard when putting a grill on a deck, tho plenty of people do it.

Anyhow, good luck with your project!

Untill you determine what level of maintenance you want and how much money you want to spend all anyone can do is make wild guesses.

With that information and the site direction some ideas can be created without a lot of wasted time.

I'd love it if someone could explain to me why the lack of a detailed response to an incredibly opened ended question is construed as being "grumpy". Karin, bless her, takes the time to post a response that will at least get the OP focused in the right direction and that somehow equates to lack of hand-holding.

My comments are not directed at charliedawg (nothing personal, cd - your post just presented a sterling opportunity for comment) but more to any novice posters looking for help and those that feel it necessary to editorialize on the assistance that IS provided. I am sure most of you realize that landscape design is a professional calling for a great many posters on this forum - we earn a living doing this. So it follows that handing over a detailed list of suggestions, a slam-dunk plan or even an complete outline of advice on how to proceed with your own landscape may be just beyond the scope of what we are willing to share for free. If it was even possible to do so based on the extremely cursory information typically supplied. And when someone does take the time to provide advice intended to clarify the process and direct the poster to a method whereby they are better able to help themselves or at least clearly define the parameters of the problem, they get lambasted as being unhelpful or grumpy. "What color should I paint my house?" Any color you like. "How should I landscape my backyard?" Any way you like and that suits your use of that space and btw, here are a few resources that will help you narrow down that nearly infinite list of variables that will come into play. And this is considered to be unhelpful???

view west, I'd be interested in knowing what your expectations are of what, exactly, this forum should provide in the way of design help. And did I miss the section where hand-holding was included as part of this?

Singalong follows:
HELP ME IF YOU CAN, MY SLATE IS BLAANK
AND I DO APPRECIATE YOU BEING FRAANK.
HELP ME, GET SOMETHING PRETTY IN THE GROUND,
WON'T YOU PLEASE,
PLEASE HELP ME,
HELP ME,
HELP ME, OH.
With Beatle apology

I rec'd quite a few helpful tips in here. Thanks for the info.

Now I'm just going to tuck my tail in my vay-jay-jay and head on out of this forum. LOL Maybe one day when I'm a lanscape expert I'll grace you guys with my presence once more. :)

Aw c'mon charlie first view west says we are grumpy and unlikely to indulge in a singalong, I provide a non grumpy singalong and you want to slink off with your tail tucked away I don't know where. Let me ask you a question: when you had the stairs down from the balcony built that way what did you imagine you would be stepping on and where would you be going?

Hey Charlie ...

There's plenty of plants that'll grow in red clay.

Head on over to the Tree, Shrubs, and/or Perennials forums for some solid ideas on what you can plant in your soil.

Also, there are Regional forums (Southern, South-East, Ohio Valley, etc.) where you can pick up some ideas and experience.

Spend some time in your local or city library ... or Half-Priced Bookstore ... or Amazon.com ... to find books that will provide you with more self-help.

Look around your area. See what you think you like ... and what you don't ... in the way of landscaping.

Finally ... you may want to go get professional help. Talk to the folks at your local nurseries and garden outlets ... to try and find someone who'll look at your situation and suggest some ideas.

In any case ... best of luck to you. May you truly enjoy your new house ... and upcoming landscaping.

Don't run away, charliedawg, we are nuts here, but we have fun with it. In case you couldn't hear me, Ink, I was singing along. Great lyrics.

I once lived in a similar house with a similar covered deck, only I made it bigger than yours. I did a lot of container plantings and hanging planters on the deck, and had space for a suite of bamboo furniture, including full length sofa, and a hammock. Faux bamboo blinds gave me privacy and blocked the afternoon sun, and it was a lovely place to while away a rainy afternoon. I lived out there all summer.

Anyway, your exposure isn't sunny, and it looks like your perimeter is wooded, so I'm guessing privacy isn't an issue? My first thought about putting the patio under the deck is that it may be damp and dark under there, even more so with the northern exposure.

If you need patio space, would you consider bringing it out from under the deck, far enough away from the house to leave some planting space for some low maintenance shrubs and perennials?

These questions get asked on almost every post asking for design help, which is why it's helpful to read through other people's posts to see what's already been said on the subject.

What do you want your landscaping to accomplish? You don't want to garden, so low care plants are in order, but you have a fair amount of space to cover. Will a lawn grow there, or is it too shady? Do you have kids that need a place to play? Pets that need a fence?

Do you want to put in a few ornamental shrubs and small trees for flowers or fall color to give you something to look at from the deck and patio? If so, plant at the far end, because you won't be able to see much of the yard from the deck.

A local nursery with staff who know plants should be able to direct you to plants that will do well in your conditions. Bring a pad and pen with you, and make notes of the plants that are suggested so you can look them up when you get home. You can get books from the library, or ask on the shrub or tree forums whether the plants in question have any drawbacks you may need to know about. The Missouri Botanical Garden website has a searchable database that can help you find plants for your conditions. Search for "mobot plantfinder".

Keep it simple, maybe plant a lawn or put in a groundcover and a small shrub planting or two, and live with them for a while. If you find you want more interest, you can always expand from there. Plants can be moved, too, if they don't perform the way you expect them to.

The easiest way to get an attractive design that's appropriate for your budget and maintenance schedule is to hire a designer to do it for you. Putting a landscape plan together is a lot of work, even if you are an experienced professional. A planting plan for an area about 100 x 30 ft. along one side of my property took about 5 or 6 hours to consult, take photos, measure, draw, plot existing trees and shrubs, come up with a concept for the space, select additional plants that would provide some screening and color, and draw them in. This was a pro with 25 years experience, and a fairly simple planting plan with about 8 kinds of shrubs and 8 or 10 different perennials. Where I live, this will cost anywhere from $75 to $125 per hour. So you see why it's not so easy for people to tell you what to do with your yard. There are many different ways to landscape the space. Once you have a general direction in mind, specific suggestions may be easier to provide.

This should get you started thinking about what you want out there, so you can further research it and ask more specific questions about your ideas. Look for Sunset landscaping books for your region for an overview.

Hi Charlie,

My house is also built into a slope with a walkout basement and deck coming off the kitchen, which is one-story above the garden floor. As Irene and Spazzycast have said such an elevated structure is more part of the house than the garden. IMO, the design issue is that a wooden deck (at least mine) with exposed wood post and beams look like an unfinished portion of the house, especially when viewed from below in the garden. This seems to contrast the solidness of the house with a more flimsy unfinished appearing structure detaching the house from the garden.

Sorry, no help, as I am wrestling with this issue also.

cd,
I'm going to focus (for now) on that section right under the deck. Is it always shady?

I have a very similar space underneath a deck - not as big as yours but quite high off the ground. Mine faces south so is pretty sunny. Here's what I'm planning. First I plan to have the posts wrapped in cedar (to make them more substantial and part of the house). Second I'm going to use stone blocks (see pic for the kind of blocks) to create planters that will border the house, continue and wrap around the posts. The planters will contain few small evergreen shrubs, but mostly colorful annuals. Because it gets a lot of sun, I want to create a shady space. I'm thinking of putting a support in the planters for a fragrant, climbing vine. Third, I plan to put in a slate patio spaced so that I can interplant the slate with a soft groundcover (I'm thinking of wooly thyme). Fourth I will hang a porch swing and a number of hanging pots of fuschia, begonia and other shade lovers. This is going to be my personal "hangin out" space...
This is the stone I plan to use
{{gwi:36274}}

Poor thing! Don't mind the curmudgeons, I'm sure they meant well. What I heard was that you designed a house to relax and entertain in and then ran out of steam. That is not necessarily a bad thing at your present juncture. Catch your breath, it will be there when you are really ready.

For what it is worth, I see a really nice, large brick terrace off of your entertainment/game room area on which to put your grill. Screen in your lower porch for eating purposes sans mosquitoes. Hedge out some parterres of Daphne, Korean Spice Viburnum, azalea or box and fill 'em up with hydrangea. Scatter a few silverbells or dogwoods, mulch and put your feet up. Maybe some vines on your staircase...Perhaps a pergola at the bottom of the garden? Have fun!

'My comments are not directed at charliedawg (nothing personal, cd - your post just presented a sterling opportunity for comment) but more to any novice posters looking for help and those that feel it necessary to editorialize on the assistance that IS provided. I am sure most of you realize that landscape design is a professional calling for a great many posters on this forum - we earn a living doing this. So it follows that handing over a detailed list of suggestions, a slam-dunk plan or even an complete outline of advice on how to proceed with your own landscape may be just beyond the scope of what we are willing to share for free.

Lets see, gardengal48 is the only 'professional' on the Gardenweb forums. I guess Landscape Design is the only forum one must pay for advice.

Seems all those other professionals,(decorators, chefs, botanists, horticulturists,realtors,painters, electricians, vets, doctors, nurses, builders, etc.) who freely give advice, must be idiots.

Don't take it personally, there are plenty of friendly, helpful people on other forums.

Just ignore that sorry, sour excuse for a person. Every forum has one or two of these egotistic personalities.

I don't know if the OP is still here, but at least for the rest of us with a Chesire Cat deck floating atop some bean poles there are some generic solutions.

My neigbbor has an intermediate deck, between the garden floor and the deck one floor up. That produces a visual step-down, and it conceals many of the deck peirs.

Similar use of plantings and vine covered trellis to integrate and ground a deck are detailed in "Home Landscaping Northeast Region including Southeast Canada", (Creative Homeowner 1998). The paraphrased design "rules" are to use tall planting or trellis planting near the deck, and then have smaller shrubs to create a visual transition between the deck and garden floor.

Isabella

Jane NY: I second your observations. Contrary to the thinking of a very select few, I do not believe that this forum was designed exclusiviely for the purpose of satisifying members of the trade (or those who like to give the impression that they are). Rather, it is a place for anyone who has a desire to participate, to share ideas. Those who do not wish to share are not compelled to do so. Why some (many of whom, but not all, I suspect, are merely hobby gardeners like many of us and not "proffessionsals") insist on berrating OPs for seeking design advice in this type of forum is beyond me, particularly given that:(1) he/she has the option of simply ignoring the post; and (2) others may, indeed, be willing to if not enthusiastic about sharing thoughts/ideas they may have.

I participate as a professional in a similar Q&A forum in my chosen field (not landscaping) and frequently take the time to provide free advice to even the inept and vague posters. I do so because I choose to. If a question comes along that, for whatever reason, I do not want to answer (e.g., because it is too complicated or broad to be addressed in a forum within the amount of time/effort that I am willing to devote), the appropriate action for me is inaction--simply ignore the post and let others who may wish to answer do so without muddling the issue presented with banter that will be of no use to the OP or those wishing to attempt to provide a meaningful reply. On the same token, fortunately, as many here do, if I may want to respond but need more information, I let the OPs know the additional information needed without disparraging them for seeking "free" advice since, afterall, that's what they came for.

I've never seen anyone ask to be paid for advice on this forum, and if you read through old threads you will see that a lot of people have given a lot of their time to try to help posters on this forum.

I think your post falls under the category of "muddling the issue presented with banter that will be of no use to the OP or those wishing to attempt to provide a meaningful reply."

One of my friends turned the space under her deck into an outdoor family room/sports bar area. They poured a concrete pad (extended to a sunny patio and pool area) and screened the part under the deck in. It looks very finished, and is one of the best places to be in her yard--there's comfy furniture, a big tv, a small outdoor kitchen--people always gravitate into the screened in/under deck area.

I think it has a lot of potential--get out the paper and pencils and experiment on paper for an hour or two to see what shapes you like.

"A lot of people have given a lot of their time to try to help posters on this forum."

Precisely. Is that not one of the intended functions of forums like this? The point is, which I think you entirely missed: there is a small minority who regularly criticize posters for seeking "free advice". This takes away from those who are so willing to generously devote their time and attention (which has been quite useful to me and others I'm sure). This happens time and again but only, from what I can tell, in this particular forum.

Ohesq... I completely agree with you. When looking at the electronic portal to the world in front of me, it is easy to think that this world exist solely for me, and that I have to solve everybodies dilemas. That is a slippery slope that is easy to fall into. It's like road rage but only projected through a screen.

BTW Isabella and Spunky thanks for the additional "free" advice.

This may well be the time for the people being taken to task here to take a break. I think the point that is being missed is not that "a small majority" are uncomfortable with giving out 'free' advice but that they are frustrated with the plethora of guesses that their experience tells them won't work. For some reason that escapes me people seem to prefer the hit or miss approach. So me personally I give over this forum to the likes of the two above me, have fun.

Ohesq, I think you are missing the distinction between free advice and free service. This OP, like many others of its type, was a request for free service of the "design this for me" type. That is distinctly different from the "I am having a problem coming up with a design due to this issue" type of request, which is a request for free help and advice. Yes, it's always free. But only in the latter case is it respectful. I participate in forums under a mutual self-help motto: I'm here to help others help themselves, and hope that I can come in with the same approach when I get stuck. I'm not here to save people the effort of thinking for themselves.

Because I've been in this forum for a long time and because I'm an engaged sort of a person, I don't like the option of simply staying silent when a posting comes up that carries or conveys the "free service" attitude. My hope is that everyone who comes here will have as positive an experience (overall) as I have had, and that they will stay and enrich the place. If they get no response, or no meaningful ones, then they'll just leave, disgusted with the lack of response. So I try to explain, as I did here, what the forum is more likely to engage with. Sometimes I do it better than others. Sometimes the OP gets it and stays, other times they get it and leave. Either, to me, is better than them leaving with the feeling that they threw their request into a black hole.

And you know, this isn't about amateurs abusing the contributions of professionals. I'm not a professional, and I'd say the bulk of people answering questions here are not either. This is about abusing the time of other human beings, no matter what they do for a living.

KarinL

Quite frankly I'm not sure to whom you are refering to in your post Ink, but if you have any exceptions to a posting, then state your rebuttals as part of the discussion.

As Karin has so succinctly pointed out (thanks again, K :-)), it is not the aversion to "free advice" that the professionals or even the regular non-professional contributors to this forum rail against, it is the scope of the free advice expected.

Just as one would not go to a cooking forum and ask a professional chef how to cook or to an electrical forum and ask an electrician in business for himself how to rewire a house, it is presumptuous to visit a landscape design forum and ask how to landscape one's garden. If one only takes the time to narrow the scope of the question to an issue or two that can be answered simply or concisely with a few practical/creative suggestions, the advice - even from us sour, sorry professionals - is quite freely and graciously given. That broad, vague or unfocused questions, often phrased with a "design for me" attitude, are ignored by the professional contributors or, heaven forbid, responded to with a request to elaborate, clarify or research and refine the question, should hopefully be some sort of indication to even the most inexperienced home landscaper that their specific concerns are not specific enough to elicit any meaningful or even useful advice. Therein lies the distinction between free design advice and free design service. Is this so hard to understand?

Oddly, the voices one most often hears raised in criticism of the "grudging" advice (or lack thereof) offered by the regular contributors to this forum, professional and non-pros alike, are those who are not inclined to offer any helpful advice of their own. Guess it's more fun to hang around and take potshots at those that do try to help in a manner in which their experience in the design process has lead them to understand is the most practical and efficient direction to achieve the desired result.

And we wonder where all the professional contributors who have given so much to this forum have vanished to over the years? Could it be that, like Ink, they have thoroughly tired of the broad expectations, the lack of understanding, the helplessness, the inability to even communicate a simple, clear request and have chosen to just not participate any more?

And for those of you expecting to receive free advice to your nebulous, blank slate, "help me desgn" requests, you may get exactly what you pay for - nothing of value.

I think Ink had the most insightful question so far:

"when you had the stairs down from the balcony built that way what did you imagine you would be stepping on and where would you be going?"

I sure hope that some thought went into the design of the deck. When you were thinking about the deck how were you thinking you would use it? How do you envision yourself using the ground level area? You have to have some ideas of your own to share.

Funny how often the first time I see a person post on this forum is to say negative things about the forum. If you want to change the forum it will not happen by saying bad things about people that you disagree with. Jump in and participate!

- Brent

Having researched and spent a good amount of time in different sites/forums, I have learned more from this particular forum than all others combined. If you want someone to agree with everything you say and tell you how beautiful everything is, there are tons of places for that. If you truly want to learn more about landscape design, stick around, stop being offended and get some education. This is a great bunch of people and most offense taken is due to having a generally small view of the whole picture which leads to misunderstanding. Ive personally never seen someone criticized for asking for advice. I have seen attempts to direct posters to develop their own ideas regarding how they need or want to use an area and how to accomplish that or face the fact that it may not be possible. For some, this kind of guidance can bring about a more realistic plan that will utilize good design principles, but it may offend others whose minds are set on something with no room for good design. If you are not the latter, hang in there and donÂt forgetÂ

1. A little research goes a long way
2. Listen and learn.

Ink: Please donÂt take a break (well unless you really need one)! A lot of us are listening and learning from all of you.

Oh my! This HAS gotten heavy. Charliedawg, here, just sounds like she ran out of steam...needed a different perspective and a jumping off point, not signed and sealed plans complete with Codes approvals affixed, gratis. In fact, I have never seen anyone visit this forum with a demand for electrical/plumbing/hardscaping plans with a plant list and layout to boot. I think it is rather unfair to paint the solicitation of ADVICE (particularly when accompanied with a smiley face) as a demand for free services. Such demands would indeed deserve, and undoubtedly be met, with the sounds of crickets.

I may be wrong, but I tend to see these requests as fun exercises which portray the myriad ways in which one can achieve the same objective...a fun and useful environment in which to live one's life, tailored to one's needs/abilities. The variety of experience which shows up in these posts makes for interesting insights not just for those with the requests, but also for those who may be locked into a design rut or those who have a similar design problem with which to deal. The only ones who lose are those with more skin in the game than is probably warranted.

I'm quite sure that Charliedawg et al are able to determine for themselves what is or is not of value in their particular situations, just as it is within the purview of those answering their posts to judge the validity of their requests. I see no sin in these types of requests and am a little surprised that so much has been read into them.

If it is not fun to just throw out ideas anymore, why should one feel bound to do it? It is an inescapable fact that all landscapes are not equal; no suggestions made here will ever change that. It is not as if anyone here is actually going to be responsible for the outcomes, there are no reputations on the line here. Save the artistic/professional outrage for the actual clients who absolutely require retention of the italianate fountain in the zen garden. That is where, when tactfully done, one can really make a difference to the craft.

I wasn't going to post to this thread. I changed my mind.

We do get a lot of new people here seeking help and advice. Many know nothing of developing a design. And that's OK. It doesn't offend me at all. Sometimes their questions are limited in scope and if I know the awnser, I give it.

Then there are those that are doing a complete site make-over. What's needed is the full design process. These people tend to ask questions that should only come up well down the road in doing the design. So most of the awnsers they get don't fit their situation. If they try to use ideas that don't fit, the result can be bad.

For landscapes. the design should start with an evaluation of goals to be achived and the creation of a base map. In another thread (First Principles), laag was on point with the advice "Work from general toward detail rather than starting with detail."

Some of the less than knowlegable people come here with the unrealistic idea that they will complete their plan and construction in the next 30 days. The local pros get big bucks to make it happen. They should go find one.

Resonable good design can be DIY. But if a pro would spend 20 hrs on a design, the homeowner will need 80 hrs to cover the same ground.

I have nothing against any of the clueless that come here. But those who have taken up the tedious task of the design process are, to my mind, a bit more deserving of my help.

I would also point out that often a tread is more than just help and advice to the OP. It can be an example of design issues for many. Yes there is help, but there is also lessons to be learned. One can learn from the success and errors of others.

The gem in this thread was provided by inkognito. He nailed it. It's the stairs! Seems to me that a lot of folks walked right by that without notice.

Ink and I come to landscaping from totally different directions. I don't understand a lot of what he says and sometimes I dismiss it as artful poppycock. The things I say sometimes give him a headache. But if he stops participating, we will be the losers, not him.

Abusing time? Again, no oneprofessional or otherwiseis compelled to spend ANY time on a given post. Given that responding to a post is purely voluntary, how can the posters be "abusing" anyones time? Its difficult to fathom the abuse of time cry of those who make a conscious, unforced choice to respond to any particular post. Some people on this forum may actually want and choose to answer a "design this for me" type of post and I find it inappropriate for those who do not so choose to interfere with that and discourage OPs from participating in this forum. In the past month or so, Ive seen 2 OPs indicate that they will refrain from posting in this forum in favor of other, less harsh forums. That is unfortunate and speaks volumes as to the overall (almost diva-like) culture of this forum relative to othersothers which are also comprised, in part of professionals receiving extremely broad posts.

Having lurked on these forums for several years now, I have yet to see any stated expectations of any one person in particular. Prior to discovering the garden forums, I spent time at the decks forum from which I obtained valuable information from people I consider to be true masters in their trades (deck builders, woodworkers, etc.) that I was unable to obtain from local tradespeople. That forum, too, receives very broad, often vague posts. The glaring difference, however, is that none of the professionals whined about or blasted posters for expecting too much of them. If more information is needed, more information is requested. On the other hand, if no one is inclined to answer a post, the post goes unanswered. Its that simple.

The question of what do you see yourself walking onto from the stairs was, indeed a good one, but then so too was the point that eight foot grills on wooden decks are a fire hazard; that she will not see most of her garden from the upper deck; that the upper deck will tend to be more a part of the house than the garden; that the lower deck is more easily integratable into the entertainment/game room, are those stairs actually ever going to be used and how to cloak the skinny bean pole supports for her deck.

I am of the impression that this thread, bickering aside, was a successful post from the perspective of giving a homeowner a sufficiency of ideas to either start a design process or to give their local designer concise suggestions as to what they are looking for. General posts will, of necessity, get general answers. This was a perfect case in point. If, for example, she next asks about the sizing or composition of a potential terrace, I'm sure that those with that kind of technical expertise will have no difficulty answering that sort of specific question as well. Something for everyone, no one need leave in a huff. I fear, however, that she tucked her tail into her va jay jay long ago and ran...pity.

Oh good lord, here we go again.

It's unfortunate that a few appointed hall monitors have to bring down the discussion here in this forum on a nearly daily basis.

NEWS FLASH: This is the internet!! It's not a meeting of your local professional association during which wonderfully erudite design topics will be explored to your heart's delight.

Everyone starts somewhere when starting gardening/landscaping. They are naturally drawn to "Garden Design" and "Landscape Design" links that bring them here.

It's not a criminal offense that they have not yet read all the FAQ's and searched the archives. Not everyone is super web savvy. That is not a crime either.

Lighten up, for crying out loud. If your time/ideas are too precious to share, then don't. If you find a topic boring, move on to a more interesting one.

And I'll end with a question:

If your time is so precious why do you waste so much of it chastising others who come here in good spirit?

And to the criticisms towards newbies not contributing to the discussion here...

Perhaps if all of you stopped squashing the discussion as it just gets going, more of us mere mortals would risk jumping in and offering our own untutored thoughts.

Well expressed Kallieanm! Thank you.

GardenGal wrote: view west, I'd be interested in knowing what your expectations are of what, exactly, this forum should provide in the way of design help. And did I miss the section where hand-holding was included as part of this?

My general principle would be:
From each according to ability,
to each according to need

If a person has the time and inclination to respond to a post, great. If not, ignore it. I am far from the upper echelon of Landscape Gods and Godessess, but if the mood hits me I can provide basic information. Let the fifth graders help out the kindergartners, you seniors continue on with your prom plans.

Okay, everybody knows this one:
April, come she will...

-VW

Hey guys, let's all chill. My goodness, if you all were my kids you'd all be in time out about now. ;) If you hang around here any length of time at all you realize that Ink has a quirky sense of humor. Maybe its my dark side but I thought the sing along was kinda funny. And no, this forum is not a mutual admiration society.

I am also a novice (I hate the term newbie). One really great this forum has done for me is this. While I am commuting home and thinking of how to solve some problem and the question I would ask to get tips/ideas on the problem -- whoa -- I just figured it out myself. Its the process I'm interested in. If I really wanted a great looking yard in a relatively short period of time with less effort of my own or had some problem that a DIY should not attempt of course I'm going to get a pro.

The OP may have tucked tail and run but there are an awful lot of those high decks perched on the side of houses that frankly give me vertigo. Those stairs spook the snot out of me too. I hope it doesn't get slick 'cause a fall down those stairs is going to be a fracture somewhere. How does John or Jane Average deal with a deck like that?! How do you mitigate that treehouse look? Those are the real questions here and not who's snotty and who isn't. Now, hold hands and tell your brother/sister that you love each other and you're out of time out.

lol charlie they are rough to start, not many here good for public office...no new presidential candidate in this bunch as they tend not to fluff things enough. If you hang out and read and just keep asking questions and do a little research along the way, the folks here are really quite helpful. You definately learn to think outside the box.

Actually, I would happily vote for anyone on this thread before considering three quarters of what is on offer right now. These people know what to do with rocks, not just how to play one on t.v.

LOL!

That old chestnut of whining about free advice and that other old chestnut about blank slates seem to be popping up everywhere like glechoma hederacea.

I an somewhat indiffernt to the whole blank slate and free advice drama, but casting disparging and arrogant back handed insights based on people's ability that is really lowering the level of discourse.

Everyone should participate in this forum and be encouraged to do so.

It's been suggested that if you aren't inclined to help, move on to another thread. That's pretty much what I do. But it might serve some to know why I didn't respond.

Last year a local friend called and said his wife had backed the car into their brick mailbox. Could I help reset the brick on Saturday? When I arrived he said he had a golf game to do, but the sacks of mortor were in the garage. I don't care how good a friend he was, I'm not going to do his brick job while he plays golf. Not going to happen.

For me, the same thing appies here. You need not know one thing about landscaping to start. But if you are too lazy to go find your survey plat from when you bought the property, or go get a map from the tax assessor, or make some simple measurments of yard features, I start to get the impression that all you will do is type questions for someone to answer.

In short, you don't have to have any knowledge to get help from me, but you better be wearing your work clothes.

Well said. I don't mind giving advice if I can, either, but when someone won't even take the time to do a few searches for information or take a few books out of the library, I have to wonder why I should spend MY time trying to help them. I think this is the "free advice" that is often referred to, not "free" as in "no cash", but "free" as in no effort expended at all.

Hi everybody, Just got finished reading this book of a thread. I would say I have learned a lot in here and appreciate EVERY single bit of advice.....the good, the bad and the ugly.

Inkognito-I did enjoy the sing-a-long, it was just soooo beautiful!!!! ( and yes saypoint, I heard you singing too). I'd have to agree with everyone who said your advice was perfect. I need to close my eyes and invision what I would like there, it's hard to do but my brain sure could use the exercise.

Nippersdad, you nailed my thought process perfectly, especially with the " I think it is rather unfair to paint the solicitation of ADVICE (particularly when accompanied with a smiley face) as a demand for free services." comment. First I LMAO at the smiley face remark :) but I really did think that this would just be a fun discussion for those of us who like to give our 2 cents worth on these forums.

Somebody mentioned to do your homework first. For a lot of us out here, THIS is our homework. I have learned more in these forums than I have ever learned in a magazine or book. The ideas I've gotten from these types of discussions are priceless.

Oh, I almost forgot - Nipper, you have me really wanting a screened in area under the deck, it's only money right?

I would like to clarify that I never complained about posters and their responses. I got the impression that some of you think I did. I don't get my panties in a wad over internet remarks.

Just when I figured that this thread had degraded past the point of no return, charliedawg pops back in to save it!

One of the things that I get from the professionals is that they get frustrated when they are called in on a new house after all the drywall has been painted and the curtains have been ordered. Like sticking a plant or two in the ground will "save the day". I have to imagine that there are 10,000 decisions that have to be made when designing a house and maybe the landscape was not toward the top of your list.

Looking at your house I see several factors that will dictate your outdoor living space. The height of the deck and the tall stairs are two factors. The placement of the door and its narrow width will influence how you can use the ground level area. In the ideal case, both the indoor and outdoor living spaces would have been designed before the foundation was dug...but I guess we don't live in an ideal world.

So it seems to me that the standard choice would be to build a patio on the ground level. Is that what you are planning to do? What type of budget do you have? Could you post a view looking out into your backyard? Do you have any landscaping in your front yard?

- Brent