If I understand your post correctly, the sun is coming in at an angle from the direction of the inside corner where the two roof planes meet. If so, the shadow cast by the overhead structure will extend out over the grill area without actually covering the grill itself.

Have you tried holding a bamboo stake or something out to see how far your shadows will extend? That ladder would come in handy for that. I think I would try to avoid having the structure above the grill and fireplace chimney if possible to allow smoke and fumes to escape freely. Also, if you plan to plant vines, the heat may damage any plants in that area.

Have you thought about fastening a structure to the house walls, right under the eaves? The windows would prevent going straight across, but there are open areas to the left of the doors and between the two windows where you could fasten a ledger. Or maybe you could install the posts in those areas right up against the house wall to leave the planting area free of obstructions. This would work if there is sufficient height under the eaves to give you the headroom you need.

First off, I would like to congratulate you on the beautiful hardscape and the effort in following the design process by doing the plan views.

If I understand, your main goal is to " ... more enclosed and to provide relief from the baking afternoon sun ..."

Comparing the photos to the plan, it appears that the plan is not quite a scale drawing. Also, as a shade factor, one would want to consider the time of day for the use of the features, as well as the months that are hot in your area. The sun does move with the seasons.

Therefore, a good scaled plan and a true sun orientation will serve to predict the shade patterns you seek.

Sun position can be derived by noting the shade of a principle element of the site. For example, in the photo below I show a cord with weight hanging over the roof edge or a pole against the roof edge with the pole plumb. When the sun aligns with the roof edge such that the shadow is straight along the edge of the pole, note the time and date. From this info all shade calcs for the site can be done.

{{gwi:33798}}

The precision of the scaled plan can be improved with measurements as shown below ....

{{gwi:33800}}

Measurements 1b and 3b are made to the building line extended. Measurement point 4 is any position near the middle of the curve.

Thanks for the kind words and suggestions. To follow up...

The stamped is new work. The old green garbage (concrete) was removed.

I agree about the standard rectangular grids - a dime a dozen, and doesn't work in this area with the curves and intended use.

Re: the chimney, the idea was to have the boards "die" into it, and have the top of the chimney portrude above the pergola itself.

The last triangle still intrudes into the "corner area," which I'm trying to avoid. As I "live" with them more, I'm liking the 4-post assymetrical one. It gives a different look, while staying out of the corner area and still shading the dining area. I'm going to come up with some newer ideas when I integrate some actual layout of the patio/curves/house into the sketch.

I did stand on a ladder to get the shadow projection down, so I'm OK there.

Great point about the grill damaging the vines (I plan to do Thompsons seedless grapes)

Don't want to attach it to the house - would just make it too big and constraining, I tihnk, for my tastes.

I'll come back soon with some updated sketches. Thanks for the input!!!

-Shawn

Wow - pls8xx!!! Thanks for the effort you put into that! I'll be back very SOON with some better scale sketches, and will look for your guidance/expertise then!

OK, here's the updated sketches (I finally found the file I used originally to plan the concrete and BBQ island). I'll work on getting the picture/data for the shadows.

So, whatcha think. Now that I see it to scale, the regular rectangular one ain't so bad...

{{gwi:33803}}

{{gwi:33805}}

As an open arbor those are two very bad plans.

I understand the desire for the pergola, but... What about a big green market umbrella centered over the table? Your grapes will grow better over in the sun along the fence.

pls8xx - Please elaborate, if you can, on what makes them bad.

And an umbrella is out of the question - wife wants a pergola.

Shawn,
In the first photo, the shadows across the roof and the sun on the fence suggest to me that in Campbell, Ca the photo was made about 6.45PM. Back time up to 5pm and the patio was probably in sun similar to the arrow you show for sun direction.

Now back time up a few hours to the hotest part of the day. The sun be will be in alignment with the runners on the arbor and about 90% of the sun will pass through to the concrete patio. Concrete absorbs heat. Go out there about an hour after the patio becomes shaded, place a thermometer on the grass and then on the patio. I think you will get the point.

I know, you are going to have a Thompson grape that will provide the shade. I live in a hot climate and nobody here has had any luck growing a Thompson. Even if you get a grape that does take over that arbor, consider the result. As the season progresses some of the grapes will abort, srivel and fall to the patio, as the grapes ripen you will pick most but some will be missed to later fall to the patio. The yellow jackets will love your patio and the occasional fly may venture by. Will there be birds that like your grapes? Ever park your car under a "bird tree"?

I can do pretty good site grading by eye. But when I want to get it right I get out the level and rod. When I want to max the design for sun/shade I start with a good base map and an accurate location of the sun.

To date you have posted some nice photos, plan views as constructed but not to scale, and plan views that are to scale but some different to what was built. Without the data I suggested in my first post I am stuck. Maybe others can help you.

I agree with the messy grapes part. I would plant something that doesn't shed a lot of debris into your dinner.

Positioning substantial rafters perpendicular to the direction of the sun will cast the most shadow, ie. 2x8 on end. Putting them closer together will increase the shade even more.

What's the little guy in the first photo think about all of this?

Thanks for the followups, especially pls8xx. Unfortunately, I got home from work after sunset last night, and was on the road today before sunrise (very hectic at work now), so the "hanging string" picture will have to come tomorrow (I assume a morning shot is required, as that's the only time the sun will hit that wall you illustrated).

I'm very eager to take your advice, so please bear with me.

We don't want total shade, and don't want to sacrifice aesthetics too much to accomplish 100% shading at the right times (we'll be looking at the things more than we'll be using it for shade, if that makes sense).

Wonderful insights on the grapes. That just convinced me (bird poop and kitchens don't mix, and the grapes staining the surfaces could be a problem). Any recommendations for something else (vine) that doesn't grow too wild (potato vine) but does grow relatively fast (will provide substantial cover in 1-2 years),looks nice most of the year, and is fragrant (I love honeysuckle - remings me of my home as a kid)? (p.s. the wife's not big on bougainvilla).

Again, thanks for your input.

Regards,
Shawn

A couple of vines that might please:

Lonicera hidebrandiana/giant Burmese honeysuckle blooms over a long period, smells nice, and is well suited to arbors. (link below)

Distictus buccinatoria/blood red trumpet vine is spectacular in bloom (summer flowering), can get heavy, so be sure your pergola is sturdy.

Here is a link that might be useful: Honeysuckle

I will leave the design to the experts...but personally I would be really concerned with your fire place and a wooden pergola. Even if the pergola just abuts the chimney...you've still got that open fireplace...does heat rise up from that at all? And if you get a vine growing up there, what about when the vine gets woody, as they do eventually. Just seems like there might be a fire danger--your local building codes may not allow it. Have you thought about an aluminium pergola at all? At least that is not flammable.

It looks like it will be a great space. Let us know how it turns out.

How many times did you look at that picture before you saw the dog Jo, great eyes, good observation. "wife wants a pergola" has to be a design stopper for sure, the real problem is that you jumped straight to the punchline without listening to the build up. The best time to ask questions like "We're looking for something to make the BBQ/island area feel more enclosed and to provide relief from the baking afternoon sun"is before you build the BBQ not after it is in place. I am saying this for the benefit of others with similar plans. So the real question is; how do I make a barbecue area that is not exposed to prying eyes or beating sun? If you build one out there like you did and are now concerned about the configuration of the timber in a pergola you may have put the horse before the cart.

Have to agree 100% we should have designed the whole thing at the beginning. Honestly didn't realize how hot it'd be surrounded by all that concrete/tile/stone, however, so we didn't really intend to put one up in the first place.

Plus, the fireplace was there from the beginning (it's brick - I added fascia stone and stucco).

Yeah, that's my best friend in that photo. Fox red lab - 2.5 years. She was wanting me to come down from the roof, as it was dinnertime (for her). Great eyes spotting that. I was wondering if anyone would.

I'll have to "hide" her in other posts I do down the line.

You sound like someone we can work with shawn, a dog lover who can handle positive criticism.

I'm not a designer nor a landscaper, and realize it doesn't relate to your question, but I'm curious as to why your DW is set on having a pergola? Do you not intend to use the area during the winter/rainy season?

In addition to helping keep things cleaner, wouldn't a solid cover protect your grill, sink, tile, etc.? Even tho I'm one that loves the looks of pergolas, I lived in a home with one and I didn't enjoy the continual mess. If I wasn't dealing with falling twigs, dead leaves, bird dropping or rain dripping thru, I was trying to clean the beams of mold/moss.

DS has an arbor similar to the one in the link below, only much larger.........it's one of my favorite areas to hang out.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:33787}}

As you say "we'll be looking at the things more than we'll be using it for shade" you might want to consider something with a Japanese flavour which would be quite in keeping with your house. There are a number of books and a lot of stuff on the Internet. I have put a link below more to stimulate your thinking than something to copy. Just a random thought: would it make sense to have the canopy cover everything except the BBQ area so that you had a kind of colonnade all around, covered in whatever vine and a octagonal hole above where the cooking area is? This would solve the problem of stuff falling in your food and the risk of fire.

Here is a link that might be useful: Japanese woodwork

While I'm waiting for some hard data from Shawn, I'd like to talk a bit about shade as an element of design. Shade design can serve to create mico climates within the landscape, but more often is used to enhance the comfort and enjoyment of the garden visitor.

There is seldom the perfect shade design. It is the balance of several factors, aesthetics, cost, garden use, and time to achive. It takes a long time to grow a tree.

The greatest challenge for the designer comes when the the design is being done at a time of year much different than when shade will have it's most importance. The ability to anyalize shade patterns for all seasons can be useful.

Then there are special structures that produce variable shade patterns. For example the standard arbor of level parallel boards with a uniform spacing.

Consider the particular case. On a flat surface stand thin boards on edge perpendicular to the sunlight and spaced such that the surface is just totally shaded as shown below.

{{gwi:33806}}

Now if the boards are rotated 90 degrees the sun will shine between the boards and the surface will be in full sun. If the rotation is between these extreams the shade will be partial. One can graph the result of 180 degees of rotation / percentage of shade. The resulting plot is a sine wave. Since the sun makes a revolution every 24 hours, the 180 degrees rotation of an arbor equates to 12 hours.

The amount of sunlight that passes through the boards of an arbor also is a function of the height of elevation of the sun. For any given day this elevation can be grafted as function of time. In the graphic below the red line is the degrees above horizontal for Shawns location on July 21.

{{gwi:33807}}

Also ploted is the sine wave for an arbor with board spacing that will just barely give total shade with the sun at it's highest point on this date. One sine wave is with the arbor rotated perpendicular to the sun at that point in the day when the sun reaches it's highest. A second sine wave shows the arbor rotated to be perpendicular a little later in the day.

As the centered wave shows the shade line and sun line tracking together the shade from this will be almost total and uniform throughout the day. The offset wave results in near full sun in the morning, diminishing near noon, and an afternoon of total shade.

By changing the board dimensions, spacing, and rotation, one can better enhance the shade desired.

Great study and great information, pls8xx. I'm finally home today, and went out to carry out your instructions, but now realize I'm not sure if I understand them. I've set the string up w/ weight, and as of 11:10AM, the line cast by the shadow of the string is plumb (perpendicular to the ground). After re-reading your email, I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for.

Please advise.

Also, I'm sure if you packaged your knowledge into a spreadsheet or something similar, members here would be glad to reward you (paypal) a bit for your contribution to their design (although that might violate the spirit of these forums).

Done correctly, the time is noted when the shadow of the roof line merges with the string and the shadow on the ground as below. Can you confirm the 11:10 ?

{{gwi:33808}}

I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "shadow of the roof line." Is that the shadow the gutter (horizontal) casts on the house? Is 11 the appx time you expect, or is it evening. I took a picture at 11:10 of the shadow of the string on the wall, and it's vertical (I used a level).

I think I understand now. In your markup earlier of my picture where you added the string, the line you're talking about will be parallel with the gutter and also parallel with the gravel path to the right, no?

In that case, it'll be more like 5pm or so. Please confirm what I said above, and I'll get back with you in the PM.

P.S. Wife is liking the "rectangular" pergola now.

It doesn't mater where you hang the string or even which roof line is used. The important part is that the time is when the edge of the shadow of the straight roof line runs right down the string line.

Which would put the sun directly above the string, correct?
Meaning it's at it's highest point?

Not at it's highest, but exactly in line with the roof edge.

Maybe this will clear things up ...

{{gwi:33809}}

As I seem to have been ignored amongst all this rocket science that has given me a headache I think I might take an aspirin and go to bed. Not really but doesn't this serve as a demonstration of what Andrew often (like every post) says: every designer is different, as is every punter and you should work with the people you can work with. I could no more do the string on the roof edge thing than fly to the moon.

Don't run off Ink. Before long we will need you to do the things you do best.

Well, I had to run over to a friend's and help him install his bathtub. I didn't think I'd miss "it" but I did. The shadow line's past (and has now vanished). It's 2:35, I suspect it was somewhere around 2 when it lined up. Now that I know (I thought it'd be like 5) I'll make sure to be here.

You might work on the measurements to tightem up the scale of the as-built plan. Plus be thinking about what months are your hotest and what time of day you will most like to use the patio. Or maybe you will want to completly abandon the hotest months and shoot for a good spring and fall with sun for the colder months.

So how does one calculate using the time the shade is exactly on the string line?

I could teach you how to calculate astronomic positions, but I'm not. As soon as I get the data from Shawn I'll walk you through using online resorces to do all the math, or most of it. And then how to use the results. If an uneducated redneck can do it, it can't be too hard.

I wonder why they don't put this stuff on the LA test. Or do they?

Sorry to ignore you Inkognito - I actually like the Japanese style, but again, what I like tends not to matter as much as SWMBO. You'd think with the Japanese maple fetish we have (we're up to 16 now I think), she'd go for it, but no.

What's your specialty?? Sounds like more on the (green) landscape part of things!

-Shawn

p.s. Here's my string. I'll be waiting until tomorrow as the sun's moved to far for the linear algebra...

{{gwi:33811}}

I looked at Japanese woodwork site and was imPRESSed at the designs presented there. I sent the site to a friend who likes a Japanese flavor. There are some unusually lovely things to inspire.

Here's another case of me just getting great things from this forum and not acknowledging it. Thanks.

This thread is also of great use to me as I need a sunblock at a specific time of year and day also. Thanks for the useful information.

Maro

This morning I'll demonstrate where I'm going with the shade evaluation.

When I get the shade observation from Shawn I will know how to rotate the plan so that it relates to true or geodetic north. In the graphic below I have made a guess rotation based on shadows from the photos he provided.

If I did design in the Campbell, CA area I would have shade templates for key times of the year. Guessing again that the hotest time would be from late June through August, I selected a mid point of July 21 as a good date to review.

A shade template can be lines on paper or lines in a computer file. If you use paper and pen on vellum, then the shade lines are on a paper you slide under the plan drawing. With my photo editor I use lines from a file to call in to a plan drawing.

In graphic below I have overlaid the morning sun lines for Campbell, July 21. Normally I would only do one set of lines at a time, as the drawing gets a bit busy with multiple lines.

The shade lines indicate the direction of sun and the tics along the lines are related to the length of shade that will be cast. A light blue tic indicates a 1 to 1, the shade length for 1 ft of height above the shadow elevation. A dark blue tic is 2 units of shade foe each vertical foot, and a red tic is 5 units of shade.

{{gwi:33812}}

From your excellent graphic, its obvious that designing the whole things in advance would have been the way to go.

I'm a bit confused by the tic marks though. I'd think that the red ones would be 1/5 ratio (since the sun is higher at 2 than at 8). Am I not getting that?

And ps, your graphic from Sat, Jun 9, 07 at 16:41 makes the "line" concept much more clear. Unfortunately, it's Monday, and I work, so I won't be able to see the string alignment anytime this week.

Assuming that time is appx 2pm (since I caught it just past at about 2:30), can you provide some guidance on the orientation of the 2x6 or 2x8s (for the hotter-time shade) and the 2x2s or 2x4s (for the more evening shade)?

Shawn, at this time of year the sun moves through many degrees of azmuth very quickly for those times near solar noon. Such is your case. An error of 10 minutes is significant and the error would be magnified for a review during winter months.

There are other ways of getting the site orientation, but only one other I can think of that a homeowner could provide. Aerial photos that have had an orthographic process applied can sometimes be used. Many of these mapping systems are related to a grid north rather than true north, but for shade evaluation it's usually OK.

I would need your street address to go this route and most people don't give that out over the net. But if you choose to, my email is pls8xx at hotmail.

For the shade cast by a 10 ft pole onto a flat surface, each light blue tic accounts for one ft of difference in elevation and you would count over 10 tics to get the shade length. Dark bue tics account for 2ft of pole height so a 10 ft pole gets 5 dark blue tics for shadow length. A red tic accounts for five vertical feet and so a 10ft pole shadow spans 2 tics.

Again, I was pulled away from the house at prime shadow time.

Since we're pretty set on the "rectangular" pergola (may have been different if we'd planned this all out in advance), I'm guessing that it'll be best to run the 2x6's (or 2x8s more likely) in the short direction (towards our rear fence, away from the house) and 2x2's running perpendicular, towards the cherry tree. Wondering if the 2x2s will be sufficient. Since they'll be handling the more evening sun, their profile doesn't need to be as large to provide shade. Any recommendation on spacing for those and the 2x6's???

-Shawn

To do the sun/shade studies I propose here two things need to happen.
The site plan needs to be rotated to true north and a set of shade templates must be constructed.

The site plan rotation makes it possible to use the same templates for all projects in the same general area. The templates work well over about a 30 mile radius, which can probablly cover the work area of most designers.

To do sun calcs one needs the Lat/Long location of the area. This can be found at ...

www.topozone.com

Below is a screenshot of me looking for Shawn's project at Campbell, CA.

{{gwi:33813}}

Note on the left I have set the "Corrdinate Format" to "D/M/S". Then at the top of the map the Lat/Long will be shown as degrees, minutes, seconds. At the lower right True north is shown with the difference for magnetic north and grid north. A lot of mapping will use a grid north and I suspect Google maps may well be shown to the UTM grid which is a 0.636 error from true north at Canpbell, not something to worry about for sun studies.

We don't have the sun observation described above to pin down the rotation needed, but looking at Google Maps of his house I was able to determine that the roof edge is near azmuth 215 degrees.

Azmuth is direction of a line in degrees or rotation from North. Think of it as the hand on a clock where 0 is at the 12 position of the clock and as the hand swings clockwise, 360 degrees is the full circle. 90 degrees is East, 180 is South, 270 is West.

Sun calcs are easily done at the following web site ...

http://www.srrb.noaa.gov/highlights/sunrise/azel.html

Below is a screen shot of a sun calc for Shawn's project.

{{gwi:33815}}

Above I have set the "City" box to "Enter Lat Long", and the values I got from topozone are entered. The time offset box is set to 8 (7 for Mountain, 6 for Central, 5 for Eastern time) and set Daylight Savings Time to "yes".

A date and time was entered, and then the calc button is clicked to get the results. By changing the time by trial and error I look for an azmuth of 215 degrees, the roof edge direction I got from google maps. The time comes out to be 1.49PM. Though Shawn missed the sun observation last Saturday, he guessed it was near 2PM. It looks like rotating his plan so that the roof is at az 215 is what we need.

{{gwi:33817}}

Next I need to complete the templates for this area.

Wow. All I can say is, wow.

Since we got that 1:49 # nailed in, is there anything left for me to provide (except the lumber, of course)?

How high will the under side be above the patio?

The top of the chimney is 8'7", so I figured I'd have the "ceiling" of it be around 7'6." Does that sound about right? Not too tall, not too short.

pls8xx - Good work and nicely done. I'm enjoying following this thread as this unfolds into a workable plan and direction. There are some of us that can learn from this. Thanks.

A quick recap this morning. So far I have done 3 things. Make a simple site observation (best), or a map check, to rotate the site plan to true north. Determine the Lat/Long location from the Topozone website. Use the solar calculator at NOAA to find the sun direction for selected times during the day.

Below is a link to a graphic that summarizes the result for July 21.

Here is a link that might be useful:

Shawn has asked me about board sizes and spacing.

For most of us, the sun is really high in the sky in summer, and even tall boards on edge won't give a lot of shade near solar noon when the sun is due south. Cost becomes a factor as well as weight of the structure. Total shade might mean 12" boards on 5" spacing. I haven't ever seen one of those.

So what do we get with a more modest 8" board at 8, 10, or 12" spacing and how can we make the most of the shade we get?

To look at this, I will use the same grid size and rotation of Shawn's plan so that the tic marks on the shade templates can be used. Only this time instead of thinking of each square as 1 ft, it will be 1 inch.

In the graphic below I've drawn a 2x8 board laid in the direction that would square with the patio much as Shawn showed in the early plans of this thread.

Additional boards are shown at 8, 10, and 12" spacing. The "NOON" template is overlaid. The board is 7.5" high, the tics are for 5 units of shade, so I mark off 1.5 tics to get the 7.5.

{{gwi:33819}}

It can be seen that at 8" spacing the shade is about 60%, close to 50% with 10" spacing, and around 40% with 12".

I can't tell by the orientation, but are the 2x8's as you have them shown running parallel to the long edge of the house (rear fence) or perpendicular?

What about a steel pergola like http://www.instructables.com/id/Steel_Pergola_for_Kiwi_and_Grape/

Hi all,

Adding a pergola was a wonderful addition to my deck. I would not recommend tackling this as an amatuer though.

Here's a helpful website: http://www.fixr.com/pergola-construction

Here is a link that might be useful: Fixr