I am not AL, but I do grow a lot of veggies including tomatos and peppers in containers.

The mix you are referring to which is a bark based mix works just fine for any veggy. The idea behind the mix is better drainage and aeration than mixes with smaller particle sizes. Better drainage and aeration are never a bad thing, right?

My honest opinion is that with tomatos they consume water quickly enough that you probably won't see a huge difference in plant performance between a bark based mix and a peat based one in the first year. Particularly in a 5 gallon bucket which is on the small side for a tomato. Here a little extra water retention at the sacrifice of some aeration probably won't produce differences all that noticeable. This is not to say drainage and aeration are not important here, rather it is a testament to the vigor of tomatos and to their incredible thirst. In a 5 gallon bucket expect to be watering daily and in your climate perhaps twice daily when the plants are large and setting fruit.

Peppers are a different story though. They will definitely do better in a mix that averages on the dry side of moist and is very well aerated. A 5 gallon bucket is on the large side, at least in Wisconsin, in your area it might be just about right.

A 2cu ft bag of potting mix will fill 2 5 gallon buckets with some to spare (prolly just enough for a 3rd bucket) so why not try a bark based mix along the lines of the 5-1-1 known as 'Al's mix' and pick up one bag of whatever peat based mix at the garden center and try both? There is nothing like seeing to really understand.

As for the Espoma products versus CRF I think either will work well for you. The advantage of Espoma products over most organic fertilizers is that Espoma products are a mix of quickly available synthetics with more slowly and erratically available organics. The Espoma products will also supply more of the minor nutrients than most CRF products which only offer NPK (There are some exceptions, but may be hard to find).

What is the difference between tomato tome and plant tome. I have also seen garden tome. Does the plant tome have more nitrogen? Seems like the tomato tome would work for peppers too.

Tomato tone is 4-7-10
Plant tone is 5-3-3
Garden tone is 4-6-6

Ca, Mg are 3-.5 in all and sulfur is 5 in garden and tomato tone, 1 in plant tone.

There are other nutes in all 3 as well in more or less comparable amounts.

I have used Garden-tone for years (and no other Espoma *-tone) product, but primarily in my in ground/raised beds, not containers. It just seems to me that the blend of synthetics with organics (some of which are fairly fast to break down) makes it a better choice for containers than most dry organic fertilizers.

Thank you JAG. I have both the garden tone and tomato tone. I was going to use one or the other (wasnt sure which yet) as CRF for my tomatos. Ended up getting the garden tone because it came in a big bag. Later found the little tomato tones cheap enough that I got some of them too. Anyway, I was just wondering why the plant tone for peppers in case I was missing something.

Anyway, I was just wondering why the plant tone for peppers in case I was missing something.

Fertilizer companies love it when consumers buy a product for this plant and a product for that plant. More sales! ;-)

A fert close to a 1-1-1 ratio is a good bet for pretty much anything. At this ratio there shouldn't be any serious problems for anything even though the ratio may not be 'optimal' for anything.

As knowledge of what a given plant actually requires nutrient wise grows a 1-1-1 fert mixed into the planting medium is still a good bet and supplementation can be done as needed to provide more of the nutrients the plant needs more of.

I am still of the opinion that any fert with the second number (phosphorus) highest is nothing other than a waste of money and potentially harmful. I am just not finding plants using a lot of P when I look at tissue analysis results. If you ask me NPK should be re-thought and expressed as N-Ca-K. Open to correction, but just don't see the value of adding P in large amounts to anything.

As a result I don't use any 'bloom booster' ferts for anything.

All in all though, as long as one doesn't seriously under/over do any nutrient I think there are many other factors that will play a much larger role in the success/failure of any planting than the fert ratio.

In other words, avoid ferts where one number is waaay higher than the rest and beyond that don't sweat it. It will all work out.

Thank you Al and JAG for your responses.

I have another question about the fertilizers. How much do you put in each container, this also includes the lime. Or should I ask how much you put in each batch or how do you do it. How often do you apply fertilizer?

Such a difficult question to answer because of all the variables .....

I think most of us use some sort of soluble fertilizer in granular form or liquid (both types are fertilizers you mix with water before you apply). I think they work best in containers from several perspectives - results, yield, ease, reliability among them. These fertilizers are applied regularly while the plants are growing, and how often you apply depends on the soil composition, your watering habits, and the mass and vigor of the plant material. If you're using a fast draining mix, you can apply weekly at half strength when the plant is growing robustly and at 1/4 strength when growth is slow or marginal.

If you're asking about CRFs, like Osmocote, 5 lbs per cu yd of soil is a medium application rate. This calculates to about .4 oz (by weight) per gallon, so you should be fine with a level tbsp per gallon of soil. Use 1/3 cup per cu ft if you're making larger batches.

If you're making your own soils, you should incorporate either dolomitic (garden)lime or gypsum. The lime is generally preferred for the 5:1:1 mix and gypsum for the gritty mix. Incorporate both at the rate of 1 tbsp/gallon of soil, or 1/2 cup per cu ft.

Al

Oh man I have got to tell you I just love this site. Everyone is just so helpful. I started my first garden just last season with the beginners madders and peppers. I had purchased to many and so containers came to my life as I have a small plot.

I just used MG last year and being a noob got BER pretty darn good. I will have to use containers again this year but it's because I've read so much on this forum.

Al your mix is great and I can't wait to get dirty to make it. Long story short when everyone starts talking Fert I go nuts. I'm still doing a ton of reading but my eyes roll in the back of my head when it comes to fert.

So, for fert. for dummies I'm okay if I just find 1:1:1?? Every single time I go down that isle and see all the choices you can just see the fear on my face. I realize everyone has their way but help? I also read about Earl's holes and that looks interesting but the how and much always is the thing.

Any advise?

If you want to keep it simple a 1-1-1 fert will work for most anything.

The BER issues you had are common to tomatos and sometimes peppers in containers or the soil. Consistency of water supply is the key to preventing it. Additionally there needs to be enough calcium. Liming a bark mix (such as Al explains in his Water movement threads) will take care of this.

Sometimes if temps get above the low 90s and it's windy BER can happen no matter what. The plant can't take up the water/calcium fast enough. Just the way it is sometimes.

Yeap good old BER....that's how I found this site of course when it was a bit to late.

2 bags soil pep or other bark (or 4 5-gallon buckets)
5-gal bucket peat
5-gal bucket perlite
2 cups dolomite lime
2 cups osmocote

How much 1:1:1 and again just the madders and peppers or does the lime do the job? Disclaimer yeap I know I just don't know :(

Thanks for the help JAG :)

Have you read Tapla's Fertilizer in Container's post? Defintely worth a read through if you haven't already.

The Osmocote (controlled release fertilizer) will provide the NPK and is available in a 14-14-14 formula which is a 1-1-1 ratio. It is also available in a near 3-1-2 ratio which is a very good choice for containerized plants. Since we are going to keep this simple and not make you go far to track things down, use either one you find. I have some testing to do this year, but right now I would say prefer the 1-1-1 for tomatos and maybe the peppers and the 3-1-2 ratio for almost everything else on the planet. Either one will do you fine though, I am nitpicking.

The lime will provide Calcium and Magnesium.

This has you pretty well covered. There are other minor nutrients, but often these are supplied in sufficient amounts in tap/well water (no guarantees though).

At this point we haven't discussed what to use for fertilizer other than the CRF and the lime. Chances are for the first month or two, you don't need to use anything else.

In fact I would advise you to not use anything else unless the plant isn't a healthy green or isn't setting fruit like you would expect. If that happens, post back here and we can take a look at what is going on.

At this point any water soluble fert like Miracle Grow products will work out, but avoid those where the highest number is the first number which can make the plants larger, but not fruit as much. You should be able to find it (or a comparable product) in a 1-1-1 ratio which is just fine. Also very common is a 1-2-1 ratio which is OK.

To summarize: Use the CRF in either the 1-1-1 ratio or 3-1-2 ratio. Sit back and watch your plants grow adding only water. Watch the leaves for any indication they are getting lighter in coloration or yellowing. At this point use MG in a 1-1-1 ratio. Start off using it at half the recommended dilution.

This is a simple method, using things you should find at any garden center. Over time as you learn more you may wish to change things up, but I am confident you won't have any nutrient problems with your tomatos or peppers caused by improper fertilization.

wyndell,

A difference btwn tom tone and plant tone not mentioned , at least I didn't see it, is that plant tone is all organic and tom tone is not.

Thank you Greengrass. So tomato tone would be better in a container? If thats true, glad you mentioned it as I was going to try to plant tomorrow if we don't have a freeze warning.

Wyndell - I think that JaG and I are agreed (which may not be important at all) ;o) that though the TT will probably work for you, that there are also probably better choices for containers - especially since the organic/inorganic issue is not on the table.

Al

Tom tone is an excellent analysis for container gardening. I try to keep it organic so I will use plant tone and supplement with bat guano tea to increase the phosphorus a little bit.

Wyndell - I think that JaG and I are agreed

Yup. If you will be using a liquid fertilizer in addition to the granular you are putting in the mix you can adjust as needed pretty easily, but otherwise the organic stuff is going to be made available at an uncontrollable rate.

I am not saying don't use it if it is what you have and you don't feel like running out for yet another product, it isn't going to make the difference between life and death for the plants or anything, it's just not optimal in terms of being able to control what the plant gets and when.

I forget though if you are going to be using this EB style or not. If you are using it EB style have at it. 3 cups per container (~2 cubic feet of mix) of the organic fert. It will sit in even moisture and oxygen levels so it's break down is less erratic.

I was addressing Wyndell, and have no problem with the analysis of TT - it's the content of the fertilizer and that it requires microorganism activity to make half of the N available - which makes delivery erratic and carry overs possible to probable (depending on the soils you choose) in containers. TT AND PT also already have more than adequate P levels, btw.

Al

What? ~~~ JAG posted in this tread:
"... prefer the 1-1-1 for tomatos and maybe the peppers and the 3-1-2 ratio for almost everything else on the planet. Either one will do you fine though, I am nitpicking.

The lime will provide Calcium and Magnesium.

This has you pretty well covered. There are other minor nutrients, but often these are supplied in sufficient amounts in tap/well water (no guarantees though)."

In container culture, which is more like hydroponics than gardening, it's always better to use a fertilizer or supplement your fertilizer with something that provides all the secondary macro and all the micronutrients. Almost any soluble fertilizers you'd choose to use provide NPK in various %s. Many also provide Fe, Mn, and Zinc (Miracle-Gro formulations e.g.). Usually glaringly absent are the secondary macronutrients Ca and Mg. Including a micronutrient supplement and liming your soil insures a full compliment of all the nutrients.

In short - choose a fertilizer that HAS ALL the nutrients or use a micronutrient supplement, and lime homemade soils with dolomitic (garden) lime.

Hard to find, but very effective at supplying the micronutrients are Micromax and STEM. Easier to find is Earthjuice Microblast. One fertilizer in the 3:1:2 ratio that contains ALL the elements (including Ca and Mg) is Foliage-Pro 9-3-6. This fertilizer alone should be excellent for most things you would grow. Use it at a reduced rate & combine it with Pro-TeKt 0-0-3 for a lower N mix for tomatoes. The silicon on the Pro-TeKt will also improve cellular health & make for a stronger plant that resists cultural adversities (heat, cold, insects, disease . . . better.

Though irrigation water DOES have an impact on nutrition (usually mostly Ca/Mg), unless you know it's content via analysis, you shouldn't rely on it to insure adequate levels of any of the nutrients.

Al

I've been looking for various fertilizers based on info from this forum to provide the minors in my various SWC's. Reading JAG's advice above, it seems that I only need to use tap water, dolo lime and a normal 1-1-1 or 3-2-1?

Tom, I am sorry if I confused you. I frequently find myself replying to one person forgetting that the post will be read by a wider audience.

You can use a CRF containing NPK only and add dolomitic lime for the calcium and magnesium. This does have you covered pretty well, but there are additional minors that aren't being provided.

In the post you are quoting from I am pretty sure I also suggested using Miracle Grow to supplement. The MG formulation will provide most of the other minors.

In retrospect the post you are quoting was perhaps not worded in the clearest manner.

The fertilizer Al mentioned, Foliage Pro and Pro TeKt are a better, more complete source of nutrients. They won't be anywhere near as easy to find as MG though, probably need to be ordered online from DynaGro. You could check with a hydroponics store as well. These are what I will be using this year.

Thank you Al and JAG. It's a wonderful and useful forum with the two of you here, making sure all of us get the right information!
~tom

Thank you Al, JAG, & Greengrass. I had taken friday off to do my planting. I hadn't even thought about the TT being an organic fertilizer until Greengrass mentioned it. I did come back in and read the posts about using it in containers though. I planted around 25 containers. I planted a few without covers to see how much work that would entail. I did use TT on a few to see how it worked. Most of them I used some fertilome garden fertilizer I had bought last year for the strip. I still lack planting some in the ground and will use TT for those. The only part I wasn't sure about is how to do the micro's for the ones using covers. Not sure if the pro-tek is better than the microblast but it was mentioned alot lately. So I did order some of the Pro-tekt. Maybe I can pour some around the hole in the cover when it arrives? Or should I use it in the resevoir? Thanks for all the help so far.

It is a little dated, but in regards to one of the reply's here. I did the math and Miracle Grow (64 quart) came out to be 4.45 per cubic foot, als mix was (if I recall) 2.25 cu.ft.

Either way, considerably less. I bought a 6 cuft bag of spag pt moss, 4 cu ft bag of perlite and 2x2 cu foot bags of pine fines. So, I am sure there is also discount in bulk on some of these items.

But definitely much cheaper doing als mix then anything else. I have read that als mix lasts longer / reusable, so even more savings.

Only difference is making it! :) Got to put on a mask and keep that devil perlite out of your face and lungs. I am trying it for the first time on tomato's, I did the 5:1:1 mix.

Think I should have gone 5:2:1 with more peat. My plants are growing in S Fl and I do not want to water everyday. My drip system is tied to the sprinkler system and only allowed 2 days a week. I hand water on one day a week.

In part, how much peat you use is linked to the size of the bark. Once you get a 'feel' for how the bark/peat work together, you'll be able to make your own adjustments. remember the recipes I offer are only guidelines & I'm also able to easily locate perfect size bark. This actually allows me to leave peat out of some soils entirely. ;o)

There's no question that making your own soil is going to be much less expensive than buying it. I'm also not a bit surprised at your half-price cost analysis. ;o)

Al